PROOF that Ancient Civilizations were as advanced as us!

reply to post by Hanslune


Hi Hanslune .... I'm not going to take the bait for the trap you have set. Yes,yes,yes ... Sitchin's writings are open to interpretation obviously. I mean you brought up one silly point to present your case that no modern machine could move 600 ton stones. OK! ... Some of the worlds largest cranes could have moved them today .... but .... How do you suggest they moved them in ancient times? Machu Pichu for example ... How do you think some of those enormous stones were moved up a mountain? .. You can try to answer that but i doubt you'll come up with anything so lets move on . I would bet that Sitchin got a a lot of facts wrong .... BUT ... that does not make his entire presentation wrong does it? Why do you think he is rocking the boat so much in regards to the dusty old "historians" who hate him ? ..... it's because his epic presentaion is growing by leaps and bounds according to how many followers / copycat authors/ blogs/ ats threads/ etc etc.. are using his books as a base to investigate a new type of history. I mean you can hardly listen to a week of coasttocoast without hearing his name referenced. This is also the exact reason so many people like yourself are getting shook. The thing is you cant stop it .. why you ask? It's because his presentation of the new history makes more sense ... Flat out! Whether you want to discuss how the Bible stories of genesis are more clear if you assume the gods in them were flesh and blood in stead of a "poof" omnipotent all being in the sky. The Hindu Vedas are better understood as truth like Sitchin mentions as opposed to goofy myth like dusty old historians believe. Even evolution makes more sense with sitchins DNA splice added in ... as opposed to man developing from apes. We now know and even mainstream historians admit that Humans and Neanderthals were competing races. What's up with that? I could go on and on and will when i have more time .... that is the beauty of Sitchin. Even if the Niburu's 3600 year eliptical orbit is total BS ... then why cant they be from Zeta Reticuli or something. Go ahead and find silly things he was wrong about and i'll go on believing that the Nazca lines were doodles made by gods in spaceships why they waited for the mothership to come back and pick up gold. I mean i like that theory and neither you or anyone else can prove my opinion wrong. You'll say ... no! .... the indians made them to show where the water could be best found. I mean c'mon don't you sort of think Sitchin is right? ..... Last question and this one is important so you and I can progress with this debate . Do you believe in UFO's and if so could they be from outer space?

Howdy Enki

Hi Hanslune .... I'm not going to take the bait for the trap you have set. Yes,yes,yes

Hans: Yes, evil me, asking for evidence

Machu Pichu for example ... How do you think some of those enormous stones were moved up a mountain? ..

Hans: Manpower – are you sure you mean MP? And not one of the other Inca or pre Inca sites?

You can try to answer that but i doubt you'll come up with anything so lets move on.

Hans Lets not, give me an exact description of the stone at MP you are talking about. Let’s see how you do with facts?

I would bet that Sitchin got a a lot of facts wrong .... BUT ... that does not make his entire presentation wrong does it?

Hans; A conclusion based on piles of bad facts is hardly likely to be correct – but then you declined to give examples of what he was right about, go figure.

Why do you think he is rocking the boat so much in regards to the dusty old "historians" who hate him ?

Hans: LOL he isn’t “rocking the boat”, he so far out he not even in the boat, swimming in the sea next to the boot or on the shore looking at the boat. He’s in pit somewhere trying to figure out why no one with any knowledge of the pays him attention. In the mainstream he’s deemed a crackpot and ignored. Run a citation search and see how many scholars cite his work (there are some actually, I among others have used his work as an example of mindless fringe for teaching first year students how to read and recognize bad scholarship-he’s a first rate bad scholar)

it's because his epic presentaion is growing by leaps and bounds according to how many followers / copycat authors/ blogs/ ats threads/ etc etc.

Hans: LOL ah you don’t seem to be aware that Sitchin is old, debunked news, newer writers have taken what little fringe thunder he had and move on from him. He’s a nobody outside a limited fringe world.

. are using his books as a base to investigate a new type of history.

Hans: Yes a made up history based on nonsense – it’s very useful too\ have a made up history that is factless....!

I mean you can hardly listen to a week of coasttocoast without hearing his name referenced.

Hans: Yep nothing like scholarly acceptance…

This is also the exact reason so many people like yourself are getting shook.

Hans: Just from laughter, but who are, "people like yourself" ?

The thing is you cant stop it .. why you ask? It's because his presentation of the new history makes more sense ... Flat out! Whether you want to discuss how the Bible stories of genesis are more clear if you assume the gods in them were flesh and blood in stead of a "poof" omnipotent all being in the sky. The Hindu Vedas are better understood as truth like Sitchin mentions as opposed to goofy myth like dusty old historians believe. Even evolution makes more sense with sitchins DNA splice added in ... as opposed to man developing from apes.

Hans: Great speech but there is only one tiny little problem, its all made up and not supported by evidence.

We now know and even mainstream historians admit that Humans and Neanderthals were competing races.

Hans: Sorry Enki I don’t get your point?

What's up with that? I could go on and on and will when i have more time .... that is the beauty of Sitchin. Even if the Niburu's 3600 year eliptical orbit is total BS

Hans: That’s putting it mildly

... then why cant they be from Zeta Reticuli or something. Go ahead and find silly things he was wrong about

Hans: Yep facts can be annoying can’t they? i like what your doing, making modifications to Sitchin ideas, which are not fact based with more non-fact based stuff. Great! Baselss Speculation Rules!

and i'll go on believing that the Nazca lines were doodles made by gods in spaceships why they waited for the mothership to come back and pick up gold.

Hans: So they spent their time moving rocks – why did they need gold?

I mean i like that theory and neither you or anyone else can prove my opinion wrong.

Hans: nothing like a closed mind is there for mental security is there
Enki? Sure makes it easy if you filter out all the other information. LOL

You'll say ... no! .... the indians made them to show where the water could be best found. I mean c'mon don't you sort of think Sitchin is right?

Hans: Not at all, again why don’t you point out three verifiable facts that Sitchin got right?

..... Last question and this one is important so you and I can progress with this debate.

Hans: It’s not really a debate, there are no facts from your side just opinions and wild speculation and a statement your mind is closed to any contra-evidence as your opinion cannot be wrong, that pretty much ends a debate.

Do you believe in UFO's and if so could they be from outer space?

Hans: Do you mean UFO=’s Alien flown spaceships? I believe there may be alien life in the universe, I don’t believe they have visited here.(or more correctly we haven’t found evidence that they did). However I may have made an aquaintence with one today.

Regards Hans

reply to post by Hanslune


Yes!! 50 ton rocks at Machu Picchu for some stones at the base course. That is some serious manpower as you say. Maybe they got that crane/time machine going. The later Inca stones are much smaller and look very do-able . The earlier larger stones are without any chisel markings at all and as Graham Hancock stated in his book " Fingerprints of the Gods" he could not even fit a credit card in most of the grooves. The Incas were just the lucky squatters who came later. They had absolutely nothing to do with getting those megalithic stones up the mountain...IMHO

"Hans: So they spent their time moving rocks – why did they need gold?"

This one here has me thinking you never read any Z.S. to begin with .... maybe the Sitchiniswrong.com site ....LOL ... but I doubt you've read anything more than that. Roll some pages to your World History 101 book and smoke it as that is surely it's best use. I think in mine, the Sumerians got about 3 pages of mention.Your version of history is dying a slow death.

....... You believe aliens might exist ..... but .... don't believe they could have traveled to earth. OK ... whatever. Maybe your right. Maybe not. This is fun. ...... My point in this "discussion" is that for anything you can say about "Prove he's right" ... " 3 facts man right now" ... I can turn back at you. Your stupid fact about moving rocks is almost as bad as correcting his spelling. So what if he does'nt know squat about modern cranes. You can't prove his thesis wrong the same as i can't prove it right.

The neanderthal / human same place and time reference i made is because if you would have mentioned that say 20 years ago ... they would have called you a quack . What Sitchin said about this was that the Annunaki took Neanderthal man and infused them with their own genes. So that (fact) about human evolution fits into his theory quite nicely. Not Darwins does it???

.... Things change .... are changing and their is nothing you can do to stop it. Sitchin is not all the way right but he's pushed us closer to the truth. Well ... maybe not you .... but that is just fine. Go actually read some Sitchin other then what you browse on your skeptic websites and you can better understand why millions of people all over the world are excited about them.

[edit on 1922008Thu, 01 May 2008 22:36:44 -05005 9/11 by DrPaulisENKI]

Serious manpower? Yes men can move heavy loads and have done so repeatedly all over the earth. The Inca and Egyptians and Rapa Nui didn’t use chisels – they used rocks to pound out other rocks and alternatively, fire and water to split rock. Unfortunately the only materials found before, during and after at these sites are pre Inca native civilizations and then the Inca themselves, no aliens or advanced humans.

I’m well aware of the Sitchin story about the Annunaki need for gold for their atmosphere machine. My question was, ‘why did they need gold’. I ask it again. Think…

Sorry you got it wrong, I didn’t say they couldn’t travel to earth but said we haven’t detected it. There’s a difference.

“The neanderthal / human same place and time reference i made is because if you would have mentioned that say 20 years ago ... they would have called you a quack”

In 1987?? The human/Neanderthal interface was first discussed in the mid to late nineteenth century as the first discoveries were made. I still don't get your point. Neanderthal didn't dig gold either neither did early humans? Hmmmm how could that be?

The problem with the Annunaki story is that there is no evidence for it. So we had aliens on earth for 450,000 years and they never left a trace?

Enki I’m a science oriented evidence based thinker. You’re just rambling and ranting. You seem somewhat stomachous and ab irato too. If you come up with any evidence instead of your valuable and knowledge chocked opinions let me know.

Hanslune,

Has science pushed Neanderthals back to c. 450.000 years ago? It's been my understanding that they date no older, currently, than 350,000 years.

To the other guys point, I graduated in 1981. Science was teaching us then that Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens (Modern Man) were contemporary, or nearly so. Both believed to be offshoots of Homo Erectus. What would have been the point of modifying Neanderthals when Homo Sapiens already existed?

cormac

it depends on your view of knowledge; at any point in nows time one can be just as knowledgeable as the ancients given all the tools available: ie. internet and communication media. but even if the esoteric self gnosis is the pretense for measuring ones level of knowledge i would still say this is as comparable to achievements in creation. why a group of beings would measure and compare another group of beings in a different loccality but still connected says much about the different perspectives of now then and to different extents perspectives resultant in ones view in light of life.

what is advanced in the context of your expression as well.

Originally posted by cormac mac airt
Hanslune,

Has science pushed Neanderthals back to c. 450.000 years ago? It's been my understanding that they date no older, currently, than 350,000 years.

To the other guys point, I graduated in 1981. Science was teaching us then that Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens (Modern Man) were contemporary, or nearly so. Both believed to be offshoots of Homo Erectus. What would have been the point of modifying Neanderthals when Homo Sapiens already existed?

cormac

The line when one species becomes another is arbitrary at best. Some consider Homo Ergaster the grandpa of Neanderthals some think another hominid is to blame.

The 450,000 was referring to a Sitchin concept, it has no meaning in a scientific discussion.

Yeah it doesn't make much sense to make two types of human slaves, neither of which does any work for ya! Sitchin ideals are like tissue paper. It looks okay, sound kool but falls apart at the touch of a fact based reality, like said paper in hot swirling water.

Sitchin is just silly stuff

Yeah, Initially in the 19th century Neanderthal was considered to be a human predecessor. As more evidence came in they realized that modern humans and Neanderthals had been around at the same time.

(religion was not happy I might add)

The many branched bush versus the straight line. The "bush" was proved about 30?? years ago but discussion on it had existed for about a century. I'm trying to remember my 19th French bone discussions.........must research.

Howdy Ausar: ah say what?

[edit on 2/5/08 by Hanslune]

Thanks Hans,

Thought for a few minutes I'd missed something. True enough the timelines being arbitrary. Just didn't make sense that anyone would be proposing that genetic modification of a sister line was how we got here.

I don't know what the current consensus is on the hominid tree, but at one time I know it was proposed that one line of HE became Heidelbergensis which in turn became Neanderthal. Definitely a round about way to get to us if Neanderthal genes were modified.

cormac


[edit on 2-5-2008 by cormac mac airt]

Originally posted by Hanslune

The problem with the Annunaki story is that there is no evidence for it. So we had aliens on earth for 450,000 years and they never left a trace?

Sitchin cites some stone tools and antler picks found in a small 'mine' in southern Africa as 'proof' of his aliens gold mining activities in deep antiquity. Not sure off hand how old they really are but presumably paleaolithic.

Personally if I were a highly advanced space travelling aliens and wanted to dig for gold, I'd invent a power drill or something rather than use stone tools and then, after tens of thousands of years, genetically alter an ape to continue the digging for me ......

Howdy Essan

(oh Essan are you the same Essan on the Bad Astronomy board? If so a double Howdy)

We've found flint, obsidian, ocher, copper, lapis and other types of mines. Gold was usually taken out of placer mines (river bottoms, sands) breaking up the stone matrix was to difficult back then. So we found they had mines but no massive mining for 450,000 years by aliens- the rubble heap from that would be impressive!

AFAIK there has never been found a gold mine or any mine for that matter that showed anything but the rudest sort of technology. There is/was an Austrian dude who did his Ph.d on this subject, he listed all the known ancient mines and showed how the technology arose.....trying to remember, his/her name was funny when translated out of German into English......hmmmmm.

reply to post by Trauma


I believe the ancient Sumerians were more advanced that we are. The fact that so much data has been lost to time, there is a broad spectrum that we cannot see. But from what we can see, the Sumerians were excellent record keepers and what information we do have gives us only a glimpse of what they were capable of understanding as the first civilization.

Although we have many devices in the present that allow us to feel so advanced, imagine what our lives would be without modern technology and how that thrusts us behind the ancient Sumerians who, without the aid of the Internet, were able to depict events by studying the stars and by other means.

Would the humans of today be capable of such great feats without modern technology? I think not!

The 450,000 was referring to a Sitchin concept, it has no meaning in a scientific discussion.

Yeah it doesn't make much sense to make two types of human slaves, neither of which does any work for ya! Sitchin ideals are like tissue paper. It looks okay, sound kool but falls apart at the touch of a fact based reality, like said paper in hot swirling water.

Sitchin is just silly stuff

I personally find Sitchin to be amazing!

I have not yet found another author who covers the same material he does that makes as much sense to me.

Sitchin's ideas may seem odd to some because nobody wants to believe that they could be linked ancestrally with a slave race of humans. Why wouldn't there be two, or more, types of human slaves?

Even when humans held other humans as slaves, there were slave groups that served different needs. Some were closer to their "owners" and lived in a much more comfortable environment, while others shared cramped quarters outside.

With the experimentation of creating human slaves, there would more than likely been many different types of human slaves with different purposes.

Howdy Lucien

Sitchin does read well doesn't he? I found his early book entertaining but there is a problem. They aren't actually based on anything remotely approaching reality, much of his materials are made up or gross misinterpretation of the evidence.

I would suggest you try to balance his ideas with materials from actual historians and archaeologists. You'll find that the Sumerians and the Ubaidians did some amazing things.

Originally posted by Hanslune
Howdy Lucien

Sitchin does read well doesn't he? I found his early book entertaining but there is a problem. They aren't actually based on anything remotely approaching reality, much of his materials are made up or gross misinterpretation of the evidence.

I would suggest you try to balance his ideas with materials from actual historians and archaeologists. You'll find that the Sumerians and the Ubaidians did some amazing things.

Hi Hanslune,

If you have specific texts in mind, or perhaps websites, that you would like to recommend, I would appreciate it.

The thing with credibility, for me anyway, is that no matter what title a person holds, how many books they've written, or how well they may be versed, much of the history has been lost. We are left with fragments that we can only speculate about.

I am aware that a lot of people find Sitchin's work debatable, which is prerogative, but being that I am not an expert and have not physically had my hands in the pot, so to speak, I find Sitchin to make more sense to me.

If I had the time and the opportunity, there is nothing more that I would love to do than examine what evidence remains myself. The debate itself is fascinating, yet so many questions remain.

I am hoping there are other Sitchin fan's here

Howdy Lucien

You'll find your journey into Sitchin land fascinating but unfortunately it is based on illusion and deception.

The corpus of Sumerian literature

These are the Sumerian texts and literature on line - you'll notice that much of what Sitchin says is there is purely from his imagination.

Questions and answers about Sumeria

Questions and answers about Sumer

I would have liked Mars to have been John Carter's Mars but one can find reality interesting too

Good luck in your search.

From the clay tablet it looks like they were big fans of men in skirts and high heels, hence they ceased to reproduce.......Got that today.

Originally posted by Illahee
From the clay tablet it looks like they were big fans of men in skirts and high heels, hence they ceased to reproduce.......Got that today.

Hot climate with muddy ground!

Originally posted by Trauma
The first known civilization, the Sumerians, rose over eight thousand years ago.
The little that we know of them was left behind on rocks. One of the most interesting and perplexing things they left behind was this.



A perfect depiction of our heliocentric solar system, with the moon included (the Sumerians considered the Moon a planet). Pluto and Charon are even depicted as a tiny pair. We only discovered Pluto in 1930, and in 2005 that it and Charon are a double planet.
The most interesting part of the picture is the twelfth body way out in the distance to the right.
This would be Sedna.
Discovered in 2003, it easily could have been right around the area depicted in the Sumerian star map over eight thousand years ago.
This proves that the first know civilization, the Sumerians, had knowledge that was just as advanced as our current knowledge, if not more.

that is very interesting

Did anyone consider the possibility that pluto was originally a moon orbiting a lost / destroyed planet? obviously with that planet gone it would follow a straight orbit round the sun, and it is very moonlike. Just a random thought. - Woogle

Well the planets are shown, but to say that this planet is this and this planet is that, theres no way of telling. Everyone would have to depict it themselves and see what they come up with.