Hi,

Do you think that once you sign up for university, you're officially declared as a slave? Like when university takes you, you're entering a life debt, wouldn't that be correct enough?

I mean, all universities are focused on only profit, right? I've heard that courses cost like 100,000$, or maybe 500,000$, any price range you can think of!

What do you think?

(Probably same as college, as well)

[edit on 6-2-2008 by TheoOne]

Oh yeah, and how come they don't show how much each courses cost, especially on websites? All I've seen was course descriptions, details, but nothing of how much they cost!

Must be a hidden fee / cover up, huh?

I don't know about slavery.

When you purchase a property or vehicle or other consumer item and are unable to pay the total cost up-front, thus requiring a loan, then you are choosing to undertake that debt in return for something you want and/or believe you need. Would you consider yourself to be a 'slave' to the lending institution ?

If you obtained a loan in order to have cosmetic surgery .. would you consider yourself to be a 'slave' to the lending-institution in question ?

When you apply for a loan for whatever item or service, do you remonstrate with the lender for making you a 'slave' ? Or do you try your utmost to obtain the loan and smile politely as you sign the undertaking to repay the sought-loan as stipulated in the contract ?

No-one forces anyone to undertake loans for consumer items, medical services ... or university tuition.

People seek entrance to university .. they fight for the privilege and opportunity.

Perhaps if people applied themselves more dilligently, or were brighter, they might obtain a scholarship (full or partial) thus eliminating to a large degree the necessity to obtain a loan to attend university.

Would you consider those who'd been awarded scholarships to ALSO be 'slaves' to their university ?

What is it that you suggest renders you a 'slave' :

* attendance at university ?
* the requirement to study if you wish to obtain a degree ?
* or the necessity to pay for the tuition you've sought by applying for entrance to university ?

Thanks for your reply, Dock6.

Some good point outs you have made, but I don't think that's what I'm implying.

I guess what I'm implying is the fairness of the price. I mean, what if you won't be able to pay your courses or a degree you've taken? Will you be thrown out in jail and tortured, right?

In fact, what about the costs that are unnecessary to pay? Why are there hidden fees? Why the cover up? If universities are supposed to be the service, then please do show how much exactly courses cost on every page, both real and digital (online).

And I wonder, why aren't they doing that?

[edit on 6-2-2008 by TheoOne]

Originally posted by TheoOne
Oh yeah, and how come they don't show how much each courses cost, especially on websites? All I've seen was course descriptions, details, but nothing of how much they cost!

Must be a hidden fee / cover up, huh?

..............

Anyone considering attending university is expected to have a modicum of intelligence and maturity.

Is there something preventing you from researching the costs involved ?

Or, do you see a car you want, or a home, or outfit ... but neglect to investigate the costs involved in purchasing them and complain that because you were required to do some work, it's a 'cover up' on the part of the retailers ?

Universities are required to provide applicants with full details of costs involved per course upon request/enquiry. But because these are so variable (as are potential students' choices, etc.) it's impossible to advertise a 'flat fee'. For example, some may choose to live on campus, others not. Some may have credits and therefore are not required to pay for subjects they will not be taking. Etc.

This requires YOU to know what services etc. YOU seek from the institution.

Or perhaps you'd prefer to pay for courses and subjects you won't be taking ?

Originally posted by TheoOne
Thanks for your reply, Dock6.

Some good point outs you have made, but I don't think that's what I'm implying.

I guess what I'm implying is the fairness of the price. I mean, what if you won't be able to pay your courses or a degree you've taken? Will you be thrown out in jail and tortured, right?

In fact, what about the costs that are unnecessary to pay? Why are there hidden fees? Why the cover up? If universities are supposed to be the service, then please do show how much exactly courses cost on every page, both real and digital (online).

And I wonder, why aren't they doing that?

[edit on 6-2-2008 by TheoOne]

........................................

University tuition is an industry .. the 'education industry'.

Personally, I feel the product is often below par and overpriced.

But it's their court and they know it.

We merely have the choice to buy .. or not.

Well

They show how much a car costs, right? They show that on TV, papers, everywhere.

And yet, they don't show that how much education costs in uni in papers, or tv, or anywhere, which is really gay. At first, they try to make you apply and then make you pay for it, forcing you to think of it as the "offer you can't refuse", wouldn't that be right?

An industry cannot run without profit. So, they probably will suck you into the deep hole and pay the uni for the rest of your life, lol.

[edit on 6-2-2008 by TheoOne]

Ok, well either I'm on something or I just don't know.

Sorry for making this thread, I guess.

Originally posted by TheoOne
Well

They show how much a car costs, right? They show that on TV, papers, everywhere.

And yet, they don't show that how much education costs in uni in papers, or tv, or anywhere, which is really gay. At first, they try to make you apply and then make you pay for it, forcing you to think of it as the "offer you can't refuse", wouldn't that be right?

An industry cannot run without profit. So, they probably will suck you into the deep hole and pay the uni for the rest of your life, lol.

[edit on 6-2-2008 by TheoOne]

................................

No, no, no, no. You need to substitute 'make' for 'entice'.

Then your comments would read: ' First, they entice you to apply ...'

Think 'industry', 'business', 'profit '. Then you'll begin to see it in a different light.

Paid education is an industry. Industries need to make profit.

In order to sell their 'product', they make that product look 'appealing'.

And obviously they've succeeded in your case, or you wouldn't be devoting your time to discussing it.

So, at this point, you WANT to attend university.

But it seems you don't feel you should have to pay for it. Or maybe you believe you shouldn't have to pay 'much' for it.

And when you look around, in any car-dealer's or property-development, you'll hear and see thousands struggling with the same conundrum.

" Oh gee ... I'd love that blue Mercedes " they say wistfully ... or " Gee honey .. imagine how great it would be for the kids, to live in a house like that ? "

Now, the salesmen will he *delighted* to sell the blue Mercedes or the five-bedroom, four bathroom, three living-rooms and pool house on the hill.

And you WANT to buy that car or home.

So where's the problem ?

NO problem, if you know what you want and have the means to pay for them.

People buy blue Mercedes and new homes every minute. They're happy. Salespeople are happy.

So where does the griping and misery enter the arena ?

Happens when people DO WANT those items but do NOT have the means to acquire them.

But they WANT them !!

And get bad-tempered when they can't have them.

So maybe they take a loan.

Now what they're getting is someone ELSE's money ... to use as their own.

Would YOU give someone YOUR money to use as THEIR own .. without ensuring they could and would repay you ? Doubt it. I sure wouldn't. And nor do lending institutions. That's life.

So if you WANT something badly enough to take out a loan, you must do so in full awareness that the lender will want his money repaid .. by YOU.

Simple.

A large percentage of university students have to take out loans to pay for their university tuition. And they have to repay those loans, of course. They're purchasing a product. This is made clear to them at the outset.
If they fail to repay their loans then they will be and are subject to the law. Naturally.

NO-one 'makes' anyone attend university.

And like any other business or industry, universities are there to turn a profit. Do you intend to work for free ? Well, nor do universities .. or car dealerships or property developers or bakers or jewellers.

Universities advertise their 'product'. They compete with each other for customers (students). And like any business, they maximise what they believe to be their most attractive selling-points. They'd be stupid to do otherwise.

When you see a property advertised for sale, the advertisement may have what appears a low price across it in bold print. ' Gee, what a bargain ! ' you whistle. You inspect the house and love it. You dash off to the bank and beg for a loan. You get it. You run back to the realtor yelling: "Yay ! When can we move in ! ". He leads you to a desk and you begin signing documents. Then you notice that in purchasing that house, you are now also committed to payment of $25,000 or $65,000 in Stamp Duty. You're also required to shell out $500 in inspection fees. Your solicitor or conveyancing agent holds out his hand for another several thousand dollars. Then you realise you have to pay to have the electricity and gas connected. Then more before your new home is fitted with telephone and broadband or whatever. The fence needs repairing or the local authority will fine you. The guttering is rotten and needs replacing. There's insurance to pay. So the house you purchased for say, $400,000 has now cost you $50,000 more (at least) and you haven't even put your foot across the threshold yet .. or noticed that the carpets need replacing .. and the window frames, etc. etc.

' How much did you pay for your house? ' your friend asks two weeks later. What do you reply .. the base cost of the house? Do you add, ' And it cost a bomb in peripherals ' ? When you purchase a car that's advertised at $26,000 on tv, do you decide you've been ripped off when you later discover you're also required to pay on-road costs, insurance, registration, etc. etc. ? Will anyone listen or sympathise? After all, haven't THEY also had to pay additional costs as a matter of course ? It's life. And as you pass through life, you realise you need to study the fine print and NOT imagine that because it's 'YOU' and because You Want something, that business and industry will say: ' Oh .. it's YOU .. well of course YOU should have what YOU want and to hell with what that costs us '.

University education is a 'product'. Up to you to get the best deal you can for yourself. If you're not prepared to expend that time and energy and effort in researching the best deal for you .. then you might pay above what is necessary. You're just one of millions vying for a place at university. They're competing with you. If you don't want that place, someone else will. And they'll be prepared to pay for it. It's as simple as that.

Universities don't care if it's you or someone else in that seat. Next year, there'll be a whole new crowd fighting to buy that 'university education' (product). So if you really want it and know WHY you want it, then you'll find a way to pay for it. And you'll know that if you fail to repay your loan, then you'll be required to face the consequences. No-one's 'making' you attend university. But you WILL have to pay for it. Like the blue Mercedes, just 'wanting it' doesn't cut it in the adult world.

I'm rather torn on this subject. To wit, my wife and I represent the two extremes of the outlined situation:

She attended a few different schools, finally ending up getting her teaching degree from Michigan State University along with a hefty $50,000 in total debt paired with a wicked 3 or 4% interest rate. She was hard pressed to just be able to make the monthly interest payments at first, but ended up applying for economic hardship something-or-other to essentailly freeze her debt amount and the payment schedule.

I on the other hand attended University of Michigan via a satellite campus after completing my Associates work at various community colleges. To supplement this, I worked all through high school and college to be able to pay my way and in the end, I ended up miraculously with no debt.

While she is essentially financially screwed for the next 20 years or so, I have to tend to aqree with Dock6's analysis. She was not only enticed by the big name University (MSU is one of the major teacher producing schools in the region) but she also didn't do anything to account for the high costs she was incurring throughout her time at school, whereas I made it a primary objective to escape with both a degree and as little debt as possible.

Universities do operate very much like any other business. Plus, we have to account for Michigan's tepid economic growth and multiple recent tuition increases.

The question does seem to remain as to whether or not some of us are entering into a 'willing slavery' type of situation; ie, incurring lots of debt with no real plan as to how to handle it, and being shackled to that debt for 20+ years.

I believe at least that my experience proves that the debt shackles are completely avoidable if you plan and act accordingly. Its more of an issue at to where your priorities lie, I suppose.

Originally posted by mmmuuuumy
While she is essentially financially screwed for the next 20 years or so, I have to tend to aqree with Dock6's analysis. She was not only enticed by the big name University (MSU is one of the major teacher producing schools in the region) but she also didn't do anything to account for the high costs she was incurring throughout her time at school, whereas I made it a primary objective to escape with both a degree and as little debt as possible.

You seem to indicate that one experiences only moderate problems is fiscal responsibility, budgeting and common sense are implied. I totally agree. Whoever said schools is slavery should be sent to cotton fields for a couple of semesters.

What are you talking about? They hide prices?

Believe it our not, starting early this year, Harvard began giving free tuition for undergrad students who come from families that make under 40k a year (honor roll only, of course )

I did a google for "Yale tuition and fees" and this page was the first result:

Tuition and Fees 2008 Application Fee $55

1 course credit (4 semester credit hours)
$2,500

Science laboratory
$1,250

Noncredit foreign language reading course
$1,250

2-credit course
$4,800

3-credit foreign language course
$5,000

Course change fee
$25

etc.. etc...

Jebus! that's expensive. Compare it to Florida State (4th page after google of "FSU tuition and fees"

Undergrad per credit hour:

In State: $109.19
Out-of-State:$546.91

Graduate Level per credit hour
In State:$248.18
Out-of-State:$879.58

Law School - Matriculation Pre-Fall 2006-2007;

etc... and it has all the other fees

So what are you talking about? All you have to do is send a friggin email to the admissions office if you can't find the price on the web page.

Some online only schools will not show you their costs until you give them personal information, but most have the costs right there on the site.

You're just looking in the wrong place!

the entire system is horribly flawed in so many ways
that I would not no where to start.

become a doctor and serve the totally evil medical and
pharmecutical system....
how about a engineer, and get really cool military contracts
and be a rich man......no no . or wait.

you can become a law or military official,and.....god I better stop there.

see what I mean ...
comply and serve the beast and you will be amply rewarded.

when I say the entire system i just don`t mean university or even
education for that matter.

I mean the ENTIRE WORLD SYSTEM as it is today.
flawed beyond believe and done so with direct intent.

All debt is slavery. University is more like Indentured Servitude.
They bring you to America then you work for 7 years to be free.

Well, I just graduated from University! lucky me!

I can tell from my time there, and through the law classes I took, that you give away a lot of rights when you enroll into said university.

while your there, you have to abide by the college rules, period.

But, I wouldn't call it slavery.

essentially, your paying them to give you a service.
With enough people, you can petition rules, as long as its orderly, etc.

But ill also tell what university does do to many people...
and that is suck the imagination right out of you.
They want you to become a robot.
But some people want to be robots as well...

You also have to be careful of the information being fed to you.
Many people just down right believe everything that comes out of a professor's mouth, but the professors are only human too, and many of them simply like sharing there opinion. Only problem is, they can present those opinions as facts.

University was def not a bad thing for me.
I had some of the best years I've ever had there.
Some people just get too caught up in the academic side lol.

EDITED TO ADD:
I guess my point is, while university doesnt exactly make you a slave, we are all slaves to the system.
The system being that we go to school, get a job, spend money, have kids, repeat, and die.

[edit on 7-2-2008 by Odessy]

I think you people miss the point though when we say slavery. Its not necessarily attached to action its attached to a way of thought and life. You see when you take on debt you have to assume a lot of things and a strong economy is one of them with a large job market. Do you think the economy is strong enough to support graduates (who dont have good connections but good education) in upwards of 100k in debt? NO freakin way.....only if they work until they are dead and we all know most people die in debt. EVen THOMAS JEFFERSON! that just goes to show you how deeply rooted banks and money are in our system. They along with the religious organizations combined in the past to rule over society and education fell victim to the superficial mentality. Especially here in america where everything, even basic human interactions, revolves around money.
That is the slavery part....the illusion that you are truly free. We are not....our freedom has so many conditions it cant be called freedom. Seriously, if you think you are free, stop going to work and stop paying your bull# high interest invalid loans and start working on your life (playing the guitar, writing, exercise, spirituatl enlightenment) and you will find out otherwise.
JEsus christ people....change the way you think! Everything we know do and feel is pre programmed until you claim your humanity for yourself through love. DO IT!! This will unite us all....We are all economic slaves and debt was sold to us from an existence that understood the human condition and every angle needed to manipulate its nature. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!

Originally posted by Tinhatman
All debt is slavery. University is more like Indentured Servitude.
They bring you to America then you work for 7 years to be free.

That's exactly what Yale does. They ship in students from China and India and then they work as research associates or assistant professors or just doing whatever Yale tells them and calling "graduate" work. They get paid in stipends like 5 grand a year and are either stuck here forever working like that, leaving with massive debt they wont be able to pay off for 40 years or hoping that some firm or business somewhere buys them out of their debt and takes them away to work for them.

Higher ed it a total scam. Learn a trade, you'll be better off.

University is a trap, you get a loan to study yet you may not graduate or even get a job to pay it back. All my mates opted to go uni and study whereas i opted to setup a couple of businesses instead, one a dj business and one a taxi business both are successful, Now my mates have not graduated and they are working for gas stations and mcdonalds trying to pay back their loan whereas i am having 3 days of work in my businesses & 4 day weekends to research my life goals oh and to come here to ats to discuss and view the real topics and news.

I guess everyone has choices and when your ready to move into the next phase your ready...i have tried to help advise my mates but they don't want to listen they just wanted to goto uni then party and drink all the time on campus etc etc..

My mum just graduated from Uni i went to her graduation in a way i felt proud of my mum and made me think well some people can succeed and get a job from it my mum is proof... but that feeling was wiped clean when my mum went on stage and recieved her graduation cert as the Head of the Uni passed her the cert he said to her and everyone could hear 'Welcome to the Illumni' my jaw dropped and i said to myself WTF....everyone else sitting around me just looked in silence and didn't even know what he said really meant and that is Uni's are Freemasonary driven i thought to myslef you got to be kidding me is everyone here just a sheep??.. I told my mum when we got home but she was to much endowed into here achievements to understand and she said to me don't be silly...It seems to me Universitys are created to recruit the smartest people into the Illumni Freemasonary group so that they can gather a mass energy from these smart graduates that would further their agendas...Just my opinion..

Uni is not for me.... Hell No!!!!..