Advice from the pros please. Re: Handguns, page 1
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reply posted on 4-2-2008 @ 07:22 PM by Lotiki
Hi.

Thanks for your open mind and interest in firearms. In your price range I would suggest a Hi-Point brand pistol. They are ugly, heavy and cheap. However, they are extremely reliable and the company has the best customer service in the business. There is a no-questions-asked lifetime guarantee on all parts of there firearms and their staff is helpfull and freindly.(I sound like an ad) You would have the choice of 9mm, .40S&W and .45. If all you are interested in is stopping power, I would suggest the .45 caliber as it delivers the most energy to the target. 9mm is a fairly common, thus cheap, round and you can fit about 60% more bullets into the same size magazine. .40 S&W gives a good balance of capacity vs energy delivered, thats why most police departments in the U.S. use the .40.



People who own firearms generally hate the hi-point brand because of how cheap it is. Everyone who owns one or has shot one will tell you that although its cheap and ugly, its a great pistol.


If you are open to spending a bit more I would suggest a Smith and Wesson Model 9. They are really great guns and you can pick up a used one for about 300$ at a pawn shop or gun show.



Other than that, I suggest looking up your local shooting ranges and calling them to see if they rent guns out. It usually only costs about 8 bucks+ ammo to rent a pistol for some range time. Its a great way to "try before you buy". As an added bonus, if you find a rental that you shoot great with and you really like, the range will usually sell you the rental at a discounted price.

For home protection I would STRONGLY suggest a 20 gauge shotgun(you can pick up a quality one for 200$) loaded with birdshot. Birdshot is small and light and has much less energy after going through walls. Any of the above rounds will go through a bad guy, through a wall and possibly into a loved one. Birdshot will NOT exit the other side of the bad guy and will not cause as serious an injury to others in the house because of how fast it loses energy. The bad guy will actually be incapacitated faster due to the massive shock of a close range shotgun blast. On top of all that, just the sound of a shotgun chambering a round is usually enough to make the bad guy think," I'm getting the &^%$ out of here before I have to see whoever is holding that." Because you have family, I would also suggest a shotgun mounted flashlight to help properly identify what you are shooting at.

[edit on 4-2-2008 by Lotiki]


reply posted on 4-2-2008 @ 07:48 PM by semperfortis
Just a note here:

I have no problem at all with what Lotiki just told you..
I normally don't get involved in these threads, choosing instead to just read all the suggestions..

But, you sound sincere so...

I just want you to consider one thing...

If you choose an Automatic for home protection consider this scenario...

It's dark, your door gets kicked in, you pull your handy dandy Auto pistol, pull the trigger and "Click", no bang, just a click... You happened to have won the "Cupie Doll" prize and loaded your weapon of choice with the one in 10 thousand "bad" bullet. Yep that's right, they are out there. That scenario is called Murphy's Law...
Now what do you do?. Well you have several options, none of them good... 1. Clear the jamb.. Hard to do on the range, impossible in a stress scenario unless you are highly trained. I am, are you? Also what is your attacker doing while you clear the gun? Stopping politely and waiting? HA..
2. Throw the gun at your attacker... Hmmmm OK No
3. Give up and hope for mercy...
All bad


Now imagine you have a revolver, same scenario, same bad bullet...
You pull the trigger and "click", then what? You pull the trigger again and you go BANG... The chance for two is exponentially high... So you get two, so what? Pull and go bang again...

Revolver for home protection PERIOD... Unless you are willing to spend a lot of time on the range (Expensive), or risk your families welfare on a bullet, cheap gun etc...

First off I am the firearms instructor for my department and have been teaching firearms since 1988 when I attended the FBI firearms instructor school... I am also certified to teach, Basic Submachine Gun, Submachine Gun Tactics, Advanced Handgun Assault Tactics, Basic SWAT, Combat Shotgun etc etc..

So please consider my advice...

Either get a good quality revolver, save the money and get a good one.. Smith, Taurus, Colt, Dan Wesson...

Or dedicate yourself and attend many many practice sessions with an Auto, good quality also...Colt, Smith, Beretta, Glock, Para-ordinance etc etc..

Don't risk your life or the life of your family on a discount gun or inadequate training...

Semper


reply posted on 4-2-2008 @ 07:56 PM by shug7272
reply to post by semperfortis



No sir I am no expert as my OP makes note of. A jam would be the end of it, period, with my current level of training. Revolver makes sense to me, I would LOVE to hear which one you would recommend for a modest budget. I understand spending more gets you more (quality especially) I just dont want to spend that much. If I lived in a bad neighborhood I would (maybe my thinking is flawed but I am just stubborn sometimes) so please if you have time elaborate on make and caliber you would suggest for a modest price tag.

Thanks so much for replying, you obviously know what your talking about, as do the others who replied.

[edit on 4-2-2008 by shug7272]

[edit on 4-2-2008 by shug7272]


reply posted on 4-2-2008 @ 08:06 PM by Lotiki

Left to right are: 22, 25, 32, 380, 9mm, 357 SIG, 38, 357, 40, 45, & 223 rifle ammo for comparison

Source

The 9mm is the round that the Glock was designed for. The Glock 17(Full size) can hold 17 rounds in a magazine. The glock 19 (compact) can hold 15 rounds. The subcompact Glock holds 13(I think, I dont have one yet).

You can find Glocks in a pawn shop listed anywhere from 400-500$. No matter what they are asking, they did not pay more than 350 for it so offer 400. If they say no, go to another pawn shop, as one of them will sell at that price. I got my last 17 for 395$ brand new at a pawn shop. It still had the factory copper lube and the 2 fired cases with it.

9mm is great because it is such a common round. 9mm is a NATO round meaning gun manufacturers will always provide a steady supply of both ammo and pistols for it. Many manufacturers have made "more powerful" 9mm loads that are safe for glocks. These are called +P or +P+ rounds. When combined with modern hollowpoint and expanding bullet design, its about as effective as most larger calibers.


Unfortunately , the only revolver I own is a colt peacemaker and would definatly NOT be my first choice for home defense. I can't offer any advise on revolvers other than my mother carried a S&W .38special hammerless snubbie and its a freaking JOY to shoot. I think she paid about 550$ for it

edited to fix pic

[edit on 4-2-2008 by Lotiki]


reply posted on 4-2-2008 @ 08:16 PM by semperfortis
Remember this...

Just because someone likes it, does not mean it is meant for you...

I happen to carry off duty the Para ordinance P10, 45 ACP... It is a 1911 style and requires a lot of training and expertise to use effectively when your life is on the line...

I carry the Glock 22 on duty...

I used to carry the Glock 21 and the Beretta 92f at different times... And before that, the S&W 66...

All good guns, all dependable and all require different levels of training... I was never "Out Gunned" in any situation and I had to "use" them all at one time or another.. Even the "66" was a good choice... It's all about the person and not the gun...

Also remember that "Flash" is just that, flash... Autos are flashy and popular, no more or less effective, just popular and requiring a LOT more training..

In the thousands of Police Officers I have trained on the force and in SWAT, I have even run across some that could not effectively use the Auto. No insult to them, they just could not get clearing exercises down to an effective time..

Although many will recommend autos, few will be truly proficient with them.. And it is all about you and the safety of your family....

Again, look for a good used Smith and Wesson or Taurus.. How much you spend depends on you.. I would not pay more than 500 for a good used one, but I will readily pay that for a Smith.. 400 to 450 for the Taurus..

You can find better deals, just make sure it is not all shot out and of good quality... Go to your local police department, ask for the firearms instructor and ask him for help.. If they are not terribly busy, I bet they will help you...

Tell them I sent you there..

Semper


reply posted on 5-2-2008 @ 12:36 AM by semperfortis
Whether it is from a Glock, or 1911, the performance data for the 45 and the 357 is very similar..

Compare these two sites..

357 Mag

45acp

Yes the full blown 357 penetrates a couple of inches more, but you will find with the 357 FAR more bullet configurations and choices especially factoring in the very light and low penetration of the 38sp in an urban environment..

Also to note:

I have seen dozens of Glocks double feed, stove pipe and jam... They are a good weapon, no doubt about it, but they are just that, a weapon and fallible as all the rest.

As for a Tap. Rack.

Yeah on the range that is fun drill....

Real life bites you in the butt, never forget that. During a real encounter, especially the first time, the body goes into a "Fight or Flight" syndrome. It is at that time the body loses the ability to perform "Micro" tasks.. Guess what clearing a weapon is? Yep, a Micro task... Now with experience and training, one learns to handle that, to react properly and perform those tasks using a martial arts concept of Muscle memory.. But again, that is with EXPERIENCE and TRAINING.. LOTS OF IT...

In a shooting incident, I have seen Marines and Officers that could not tell you their names.. They could almost alway still pull a trigger, thank the Lord, but clear a jam... HAHAHAHAHA No way.. After their 2nd or 3rd firefight, they got better... Most people just want to live through the first one...

If you are a cop, military or some such, go with the Glock, Beretta or 1911... You have the experience and the training.. Trust me, they are all fine weapons and what you will hear about each one is personal preference and that means little about which is the best...

I like a safety on my weapons, and I like a single action trigger pull, so that is why my personal choice is the 1911.

I own an original Italian made Beretta 92 and consider it my most reliable weapon... I carry the Glock as it is issue, but also consider it a fine weapon. My carry gun has jammed on me one time, which is not bad considering I shoot several thousand rounds a year through it alone.

Find what your comfortable with, that you can be accurate with and most of all effective, then find a bullet that matches your environment.

I was not going to mention this because there are new shooters on here, but I'll make a note here..

I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS>>>>>>>

I keep 3 rounds of "Rat Shot" and 3 rounds of Jacketed Hollow points in my home gun. I keep the rat shot as the first rounds, then on to the big stuff... I have cats and could not live with myself if I killed one accidentally ...

I am also experienced and very good... I have also seen what happens to people shot with rat shot at close range...

again.. I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS....

Anyway

Just saying, don't get caught up in the "This is better than this" BS... The fact is it is all personal preference...

In point of fact, I have never been beaten in competition by a Glock.. I've been beaten MANY times, just never lost to a Glock.. Doesn't make them a bad weapon, in fact I consider them in the top three, again this is just personal preference... All depends on the person...

Semper



[edit on 2/5/2008 by semperfortis]
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