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Muslim husbands with more than one wife to get extra benefits as ministers recognise polygamy

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posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 09:08 AM
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Originally posted by Beachcoma
So I reiterate my assertion that multi-culturalism CAN work. But it is NOT an overnight process. It requires time and it requires effort from each and every individual in the state. And the way to start it off is through education with the aid of the media.

I wonder how many compromises had to be made by the variety of cultures in Malaysia. I'm not being insidious here - I'm genuinely interested. Multi-culturalism could work if every group of people concerned, especially the indigenous people, were willing to make compromises to accomodate the religious and cultural requirements of other/newer groups of people.

I've just read a little bit about Malaysia and I'm not so sure I would call it a harmonious example of multi-culturalism. It would appear that non-Muslims experience restrictions in the construction of religious buildings and the celebration of certain religious events. In turn, despite Malaysia being a largely Muslim country, Sharia law only extends as far as laws regarding marriage and family etc, thus it seems Islam is somewhat conformed too.

I guess this very much depends on your viewpoint of what is acceptable in terms of compromising your culture. I'm happy for Muslims to come to Britain and accept it as it is, not attempt to alter established laws, live fully within those laws, and respect its existing inhabitants. I will not be happy to see even one small aspect of Sharia law introduced Nationwide.




posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 09:10 AM
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reply to post by kangjia57
 


No kangija - the problem is that you want to change UK law to suit yourself.

Well, here's the news - this is a christian country, with a democratically elected christian government whose laws are some of the fairest in the world.

If you don't like it, live in a country which has sharia law - British citizens are subject to British law.

I find your statement that we don't have sharia law here "yet" to be highly offensive, confrontational and designed to illicit a response which is less than reasonable so that you are able to play the victim.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 09:15 AM
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reply to post by Beachcoma
 


Beach, people continue to portray the unease as some sort of British MSM campaign.
It is not.
It is genuine concern being expressed by everyday, normal British citizens who are witnessing a forcible dilution of British heritage and society which is co-ordinated by a select group of namby pamby liberal do-gooders who are trying to enforce their vision of some leftist, idealistic multi-cultural society.
I can assure you, we don't need the msm to force feed this nonsense upon us, we are witnessing it every single day in our normal day to day life.

Britain has always been a haven for the disadvantaged, dispossessed and victimised. Long may it continue to be.
Britain has a very, very long history of absorbing the best of other cultures.
Britain has long been a multi-cultural society just take a simple look at our heritage.
Just not the spineless, featureless vision of multi-culturalism that is being forced upon us.


[edit on 5-2-2008 by Freeborn]



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 09:27 AM
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reply to post by budski
 


Hey I am just joking, but remember we have polygamy in the US due to religious believes and they are not limited to Muslims.


Here we pay unwed mothers so you don't have to marry a women to have children with them


You can have plenty of women and children they just let the government pay for the children, see is no laws needed in the US at all the system is good enough the way it is.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 09:38 AM
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reply to post by marg6043
 


Pretty much the same here marg - kids getting pregnant so they can get social housing and live life on the dole.
Feckless fathers who don't pay for the offspring they produce, so the state pays for them.

Makes me go grr.


Back on topic (kind of) here are the numbers by ethnic group for unemployment rates.

Also shown here are figures which show that bangladeshi and pakistani males have some of the lowest gcse pass rates.

These statistics show that kangija is mistaken in his belief that muslims (in the UK most muslims are of pakistani or bangladeshi origin) are not given work or are treated unfairly.

My question is this:
If Britain is racist, then why are Indians at the same level of unemployment as white/UK and white/irish ?
Why are educational standards so much lower amongst those of muslim-associated ethnicity?
I submit that the most likely reason for a person of muslim associated ethnicty to be self employed is inherent racism and xenophobia within your own community.

This for kangija - who I don't expect to answer in any meaningful way other than more propaganda and self pity.



[edit on 5/2/2008 by budski]



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 09:38 AM
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reply to post by Cythraul
 


A lot of compromises were made. It's either that or riots and instability. That isn't good for business. The thing is, we're not like other countries that claim to be multicultural. By that I mean we don't have one majority and a host of large minorities. We've got three majorities and a host of minorities. There is no way it would have worked without compromise from all segments of society. Everyone has got to give and take.


Originally posted by Cythraul
I've just read a little bit about Malaysia and I'm not so sure I would call it a harmonious example of multi-culturalism. It would appear that non-Muslims experience restrictions in the construction of religious buildings and the celebration of certain religious events. In turn, despite Malaysia being a largely Muslim country, Sharia law only extends as far as laws regarding marriage and family etc, thus it seems Islam is somewhat conformed too.


On the first point, I would like to know the specific examples. There's always two sides to every story. In most cases, the restriction for constructing religious buildings isn't because of religion itself, but because of politics and/or the lack of proper permits (which, if you think about it, is also politics). Mosques get shut down and demolished as well if the permits aren't there. As for religious events being celebrated, as far as I know, we accommodate all the major religions here. So again, I would like to know the specific event before I comment further.

On the second point -- Sharia isn't absolute. They're so many varieties of Sharia law, each different depending on which country it is practised in. You should also note that Sharia in Islam is relatively new. While it may be based on the Quran and the Hadith, it is not explicitly written in those texts. It was codified years after the death of the Prophet and his Companions. Note -- you should contact babloyi if you want to know more about the different forms of Sharia there is. He would know more about it than I.

There are elements in Malaysian society that wish to see greater expansion of Sharia law, though. In my estimation, it ain't gonna happen. The only ones that support them are those that don't know the meaning of living in a multi-cultural society. The Sharia experiment in the states of Kelantan and Terengganu have proven to be a failure. Tourism and foreign investment has declined and as a result, the state income there has also declined. The people are getting restless and in the next elections, the ruling Islamic Party government there may find themselves on the losing end. They only won the state at the heels of the Asian Financial Crisis of 1997. A decade has passed and the economic growth there is a drop in the bucket compared to the recovery of the West Coast.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 09:55 AM
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Originally posted by kangjia57





First rise against your government.
And second you won’t be able to hack us as easy as you think. Have you ever seen the Pakistani,Afghan,Somali,Sudanese youth?Anything happens and these guys will first burn down towns of every major city. Cops will run when they see us in hundreds and thousands.The only way possible will be getting military involved to crush the uprising.



Well, I'm afraid I am going to have to bite.....

Hundreds and Thousands?
There's millions of us!
Despite what some are trying to get us to deny, Britain is a nation of warriors with a long, successful and proud fighting history.
The British love fighting.
Hell, we've made a national past time of it.
We will never surrender, ever, just look through history to see how resolute we are.
In the event of any confrontation there would be only one winner.

Now, enough of that bollocks and let's try to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem!



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 10:01 AM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


Again, I can empathize with what you are saying. And I, too, disagree with the way the liberals in your country are trying to promote their brand of multiculturalism. Removing the things that make each culture unique will only result in more resentment.

However, I believe there is no escaping multiculturalism. We as a species are becoming more global. People from diverse backgrounds are now forced to come into contact with one another. Conflicts are bound to happen, but it doesn't have to. Not if all parties respect each other's tradition without trying to force it upon the other. With that said, there is absolutely no reason we should abandon our diverse heritage. We should embrace it.

Another ad compliments of Petronas with a good message (plus it's quite funny!) --



Embrace the diversity. Not oppose it, not fight it and certainly not force it.

And again, I cannot stress it enough -- these things take time and it takes effort.

    There is no easy way from the earth to the stars.

    Lucius Annaeus Seneca



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 10:05 AM
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reply to post by Beachcoma
 

Many thanks for your reply Beachcoma. Well said as always. I'm afraid I can't elaborate or substantiate my comments about Malaysia building restriction any further, as I was merely reiterating small bits of information I found when reading up on Malaysia's cultural and religious background on sites like Wikipedia, and others I have googled. I'm fully prepared to acknowledge the incorectness of such information.

However, tell me - Is this successful multiculturalism? It's a basic example of how one group upholding traditions can only upset and anger another group who do not want their way of life imposed upon. There is no way to resolve the situation I have linked to without one group feeling hard done by. Perhaps with many compromises, multiculturalism could work, but I very much doubt all sides will be prepared to compromise the required amount to enable it.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 10:07 AM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


starred

I'm afraid that conditioning may pay a part in what kangija is saying.
He seems to have an image in his head of thousands of heroic "freedom fighters" fighting against the yoke of british tyranny, a la Tariq Bin Zayid.

I'm sorry, but I see the member as being at least slightly deluded in his expectations of what would happen.

I'm not biting - I'm actually giggling.

Blimey - if my ancestors couldn't defeat the british (although there is a school of thought that says they did) i.e. mad irish, then others have no chance



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 10:12 AM
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Originally posted by budski

Do you consider yourself to be above the laws of britain because you view yourself as muslim rather than british?



Do you consider the legalities of britain above the Laws of God?

Nationality is a farce of the warring states global economy.

Sri Oracle



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 10:25 AM
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reply to post by Cythraul
 


Concerning the article you linked, it is something the residents would have to work out themselves. A suggestion was made in the article --


There is no suggestion that the call is going to be sounded at dawn or at night in Oxford, but the mosque will ask to be allowed to broadcast the three daytime calls, though their spokesman, Sarder Rana, said they will be "happy" if they get permission to make the call to Friday prayers only.


It seems reasonable to me (the call sounded only on Fridays in the afternoon). But in the end it is up to the local residents whether they wish to accept that compromise or not. To be frank, reading the article it seems more of a political issue than religion.


"What has angered people – and it has absolutely screamingly angered many people – is when we see Anglican clergymen overtly supporting Islam. We're totally staggered. It's being a traitor to the job description of their employment."


Compromise is the only amicable solution, in my opinion. But there will always be people who lament that there has been too much compromise. It's like that in my country, too. Just talk to my grandmother on a bad day and you'll hear her complaining non-stop about the many compromises the people have had to make. Talk to my sisters and they'll stop and tell you everything is A-okay, then continue listening to their iPods


Time remedies the situation.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 10:26 AM
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reply to post by Sri Oracle
 


What laws of god?

I recognise the law of the land - I do not recognise mans attempts to interpret the "word of god" and manipulate it in order to suit himself.

Every country has laws - if you want to live in a country you abide by their laws.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 10:40 AM
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reply to post by marg6043
 


Oh sure.

You see, in your first post in this thread, you said this:

Excellent post, nailed the issue here my friend how long it will take for this people to become the growing minority and start taking over the nations political affairs.

Look at the immigration problems in the US, Spanish are the biggest growing minority in this nation and the illegals are becoming the biggest problem facing our nations now falling economy.BTW I am spanish


That is, you are blaming the individual people - the Muslims and the, ahem, "Spanish." You do this rather than blame the real culprit - your government.

But then in the post I replied to, you stated:

First of all the only people draining oil rich Arab nations dry is the same feudal monarchies that some of this nations have for thousands of years, so blaming the west for dipping in the oil is preposterous because without the help of the willing monarchy leaders it will be impossible

In other words, the problems of Arab nations are the fault of those nations' governments, and not the individual interests from western corporations.

Now the strange thing is, you rush to the defense of your own government in that second post, did you notice? Golly, you can't blame them for dipping in and encouraging the bad conditions!

Now maybe you're some anti-government hardcore tinfoil mad hatter. But your posts on this thread seem to involve you doing your best to become a raving nationalist at the same time you're being a borderline bigot.

"Growing minority taking over the nation's political affairs"
The Red Scare may be gone, but apparently the Brown Scare still has a lot of steam behind it.

Now, back on topic...

Why the hell is government still involved in marriage at all? Its only involvement - if any - should be allowing divorces and custody to be settled in civil courts, nothing more.

[edit on 5-2-2008 by TheWalkingFox]



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 10:47 AM
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reply to post by budski
 


I like to think that I inherited the positive attributes from my Kerry ancestors.
However, I am English and British.

Yeah, I think kangjia is falling for the 72 virgins, Allah with a white beard flying on a cloud nonsense.
A shame as he is clearly an intelligent person with a keen sense of humour, but I have noticed his growing extremism as people attempt to discredit his postings.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 10:51 AM
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reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 


Well what can I say I am after all an American and as an American my nation comes first, but when it comes to politicians and broken political system I can careless.

Now like you said back to the topic, your moment of self inflicted importance is over.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 10:54 AM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 

Perhaps it was a bit naughty, but as I was posting in reply to him last night, I was also relaying the info to a friend of mine in saudi via msn - and she is a VERY devout muslim who has a great knowledge of the koran and islamic law and custom.

I posted her response last night and have been trying to persuade her to join so that she can share her view of Islam - which is totally different to kangija's.

More circumspect and flexible.

But yeah - the whole 72 virgins thing is rubbish as is martyrdom - suicide for any reason is expressly forbidden is my understanding.
But doubtless a scholar or elder would refute that, despite it being in the koran.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 11:03 AM
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Originally posted by ZyonCryme

This is plain and clear in Islam. And i think its also in Christianity and Judaism because most people are labeled their religion first before their Nationality. The United States is built on (or is supposed to be built on) Church and State... meaning that it recognizes itself as a Christian Nation. So everyone who immigrates to the US, should call themselves American, but they are whatever religion they are first and then American. Nationality does not change your religion.

Also a Muslim is not allowed to go into a country and cause problems.


I see. But lately in the past couple of years, the prevailing trend in Washington for changing the system around is seperating Church and state, not requiring you to have to say the pledge of allegiance at public school, not allowing a pray time at school (how hard would it be to make this a symbol-less, multi-religious time when whatever your religion is, you pray to. If you have no religion and dont believe, you think to yourself quietly.) But no, this is not allowed. The Government is against this .. they want more seperation, they do not want the U.S.A. to be seen as a Christian nation. They've been removing Christian symbols from federal property and documents.

On your last sentence, Jihad must trump what you are saying because they go into other countries and cause major world problems. And that is sanctioned by a lot of the local Middle Eastern Sheikhs or religious leaders of that particular group or sect. You know, like the position alot of Palestinian Islamic Clerics take on suicide bombing, that it is just a tool of self defense when everything else has already been taken. I think thats a lame excuse for some seriously grimey fighting tactics.

I know you don't represent any of these groups or people, and this isn't all directed at you, I just moved on to a different subject here after addressing the seperation of Church and State.

Jah bless,
runetang



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 11:15 AM
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Reply to Freeborn



Despite what some are trying to get us to deny, Britain is a nation of warriors with a long, successful and proud fighting history.


Do you call chavs ‘warriors’?


Warriors that chickened out of Basra because the shia millitants were too heavy on them?
Or when the British made a deal to release all the millitants for stopping of mortar attacks?
British surrenderd and gave the bases to Muqtada al Sadr (leader of the Shia millitants).


Please don't even get me started..



A shame as he is clearly an intelligent person with a keen sense of humour, but I have noticed his growing extremism as people attempt to discredit his postings.


I am not here to gain credit. I have had enough of Islam bashing and since I have joined I have crippled many with my response.They all hate it but I love it when the temper heats up and they cant swear as the rules and regulations dont allow that.


Anyone who starts a Islam bashing thread also knows he will have to face me.

Reply to budski



Blimey - if my ancestors couldn't defeat the british (although there is a school of thought that says they did) i.e. mad irish, then others have no chance


Yeh I wonder what happened to the British in 1947 when they were in India and Pakistan.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 11:19 AM
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Reply to buski



Perhaps it was a bit naughty, but as I was posting in reply to him last night, I was also relaying the info to a friend of mine in saudi via msn - and she is a VERY devout muslim who has a great knowledge of the koran and islamic law and custom.


Tell her I am a Sunni aswel.

I openly ask my fellow Muslims to come and criticize me and prove me with Evidence that I am wrong and going against the Quran and the Sunnah.



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