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posted on Feb, 3 2008 @ 12:21 AM
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Originally posted by TheLearnedAmerican
and this is my first post...


Nice post, and pleased to meet you.


Originally posted by TheLearnedAmerican
BUT we live in a chaotic universe (dimensional vibratorial frequency) and that chaos will manifest in and through beings who know NOT of the source and who live in blind ignorance of the simplistic complex simplicity of that which IS. These disagreeable beings have been influencing and controlling world events since the beginning, and their devestating reach and effect are becoming far more obvious to more and more discerning human beings at this point in "time".

You must have peace of self in order to properly understand, overstand, interact with and enjoy the events and potential experiences unfolding all around you. You can't control all of the madness, confusion and heartbreakingly pitiful (but quite entertaining at times) ignorance in the world...but you can control YOU and how YOU interact with and affect/effect the Physical. That's all the God-like power I need.


What if we get to the point where we KNOW (not just intellectualize) that we never needed to do anything other than "control YOU?" (Although I would say that "control" is not the proper word choice. Love/ Acceptance is more in line.) What if we realized there is no "other" and hence there could be no "disagreeable beings" but rather these beings were no more than reflections in the mirror? And that to "change things" all we ever had to do was go within and effect the change there?

When you look into a mirror, and see a smudge on your cheek, you can rub the mirror all you like. The smudge will still be there. There is a lack of awareness that what you see in the mirror is YOU. A reflection of Self. If you wish to remove the smudge, leave the mirror alone, and reach up and wipe your cheek.

What if, at our core, we are not "god-like" but actually an aspect, or a facet, of the gem that is the Divine? No one facet being, in an egotistical sense, "God," but once the distinction, the duality ridden distinction of "One" or "Many" is released the ALL THAT IS, which is both one/many and neither one/many is the Divine. And what if this Divine has never been other than both "us/i" and neither us/i at the core level of "Self" that is Awareness before Identity.

What if when Jesus, to use a Christian example since that tradition is well known, said "Love thy brother as thyself" he meant that literally. What if when he admonished us to bother not with "the mote in our brothers eye, but tend rather to the log in our own" he was pointing to this truth? What if, "judge not, lest you too be judged" is also a reflection of this truth?

Those are just a few examples from Christianity. Almost all the religious traditions I have read have similar pointers.


Edit; I have just read the entirety of the original posters link. Brilliant and profound. Excellent find and thank you for posting it.




[edit on 3-2-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]




posted on Feb, 3 2008 @ 04:54 AM
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Its very nice to have an uplifting thread to participate in, and u know this when the negs as i call them pop in throw some of their dark thoughts around and then disappear, and its not all about being comrades, all sharing the same ideal, and isn't the world a wonderful place, indeed far from it, but its nice to see like minded people exchanging their thoughts, be them similar or not, and its not about being right or wrong thank god, its purely how you feel, wot you feel and being a different person, said it before, final time for me, transformation, sure its not easy, but its rewarding in many ways which are not linked to status within our existence and if you had placed me in the non defunct, i am not a believer forum, lets say a few years ago, i would probably still be there, however thats transformation for you, needed and appreciated.



posted on Feb, 3 2008 @ 07:20 AM
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reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
 


That is correct.

All these feelings and all this stuff here in this life and on earth are all created and interpereted by the "thinking self".

And the funny thing is that this "thinking self" is really our demise as humans.



posted on Feb, 3 2008 @ 08:01 AM
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Indeed yes, but as humans we will turn it around, more than likely right in the last moment, maybe with a little help from some friends, interesting times indeed, so we as humans go to the wire, which is usually the case is it not, and its great not to be waving a flag, at people, heres a great comparison, i recently returned from Europe, having spent a few years working there which was great, nice weather, nice lifestyle, u get the picture, but every Monday the local farmers market would be open, and all of our produce was brought there, vegetables, with no chemicals attatched, meat organically grown, and the eggs, well anyways, sure you get the picture, and then for me back to dear old blighty, and the thing that hits you is the supermarket culture, what would you do without them, and the worrying point to this is what is actually going into those foods, the carlos barrios document also highlights this situation quiet well, watch and take note of what you eat, but then when your in the supermarket, its full of signs like buy3 of these and get the 4th free, buy two and get one free, hey you buy this one and get another free!! now thats scary, give me the farmers market and free range any day.



posted on Feb, 3 2008 @ 08:39 AM
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Originally posted by Critical_Mass
reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
 


That is correct.

All these feelings and all this stuff here in this life and on earth are all created and interpereted by the "thinking self".

And the funny thing is that this "thinking self" is really our demise as humans.


Hey, I can accept my demise =) Many fight it, many try to create an imaginary eternal place for them to go to after death... when it's right here! The eternal place is here while you're living and here while you're dead. There are negative people and positive people, life and death, intellects and wise men. Those that are confused and those that are found in their abyss of nowhereness. Those that see beauty and those that see temultuous death and wretched suffering.... then there are those who see both... and fewer are those that are involved with neither.

At the end of the day we're all the same because every single one of us is different... and we're all insane and trying to prove otherwise. Why fight it, that's the duality? Sure the duality exists, but in my opinion, much too often the Human being allows it to destroy itself because it uses one side to be greater than the other... when all sides simply just are... and every side allows every other side to be known and understood.

[edit on 3-2-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]



posted on Feb, 3 2008 @ 08:49 AM
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Originally posted by SolPower
I'm not sure what you're getting at here? Are you saying that great teachers of the past are outdated?


Yes. And no, that they can finally be understood properly and that more people should be subject to the new comprehensions.


You're right, except that energy is eternal - and are we not energy in an altered state?


I do not believe we are energy in an altered state any more than a rock is. We're just energy, like everything else. What I was getting at is that every material state, over time, dissipates, deteriorates, dissolves and becomes something else other than the form it previously had... and possibly that elemental form again sometime in the future, but I do not believe that any 'one thing' of eternity (the universe) can ever be eternal. What I'm saying is that I don't have a soul. I live and I die... part of the animal kingdom, part of the eternal kingdom. It should be a queendom too, don't we acknowledge our women?

I also do not accept that all I need is within me. Sounds fanciful, but couldn't be further from the truth in many ways... although in some ways it could be argued... but that's as far as it would get... an argument. All that you need is everything and nothing, everywhere and nowhere... and in that case you should neither want nor need... and should be living a worryless life of nirvana. K.I.S.S.

[edit on 3-2-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]



posted on Feb, 3 2008 @ 09:59 AM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
...What if, at our core, we are not "god-like" but actually an aspect, or a facet, of the gem that is the Divine?
...
Those are just a few examples from Christianity. Almost all the religious traditions I have read have similar pointers. ...


Yes, that's what I've been thinking for awhile. "God" is like a big batch of bread dough, and we're like the bits we pull of to make more bread. Once I started to see others as my "brothers" and "sisters", and once I started to practice loving myself and others unconditionally, that's when my Life changed.
Do I still have "hemorrhoids" (symbollically speaking)? Yes. But I dropped the fear and anger.

I think that more and more people are letting go of the old way of thinking about "God". This old style thinking IMO is a hold over from humans creating "gods", something/one outside of themselves to worship/placate, because these gods were perceived to have some control over their everyday lives. Jesus, for example, after his death, was turned into this type of "god" by people trying to blend new and old thinking, people who could not shake off the old thinking just yet. The snake must shed its skin to grow.



posted on Feb, 3 2008 @ 10:04 AM
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Agreed who does need to fight, you dont need to, but people do, similar to an opinion of not believing in inner sanctuary, or that indeed things do come from within, thats whats so amazing about this situation, its not about that, its about the experience, surely? Who needs to wave a flag, who needs to say whats right and whats not, from within is just not about that, its like looking at something familiar but from a different angle, its like participating in a sport, whilst you watch from the stands, its a multitude of things, Ok, so it works for, me, fine, maybe not for someone else, but who to say a year from now, that other person might take on a new and enlightening opinion, anyway as i say never say never as u never really know.



posted on Feb, 3 2008 @ 10:33 AM
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reply to post by SolPower
 

Take a look inside your mind,
You'll be surprised at what you find,
Everything you need to know,
Lies deep inside, 'twas always so.

Love to all,
Horsegiver.



posted on Feb, 3 2008 @ 01:43 PM
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Originally posted by desert

Yes, that's what I've been thinking for awhile. "God" is like a big batch of bread dough, and we're like the bits we pull of to make more bread. Once I started to see others as my "brothers" and "sisters", and once I started to practice loving myself and others unconditionally, that's when my Life changed.


Aspects of Self, of which we, you and I, all of us, are that same Self. Yes. I think it is so strange that this is pointed to everywhere, in all the traditions, and everyone looks at the "finger" pointing to the moon, rather than at the moon itself.

In the link provided by the OP, the Elder says,


The elder delivered a simple, direct message. He called for human
beings to come together in support of life and light. Right now each person and group is going his or her own way. The elder of the mountains said there is hope if the people of the light can come together and unite in some way.
Reflecting on this, Mr. Barrios explained: "We live in a world of polarity: day and night, man and woman, positive and negative. Light and darkness need each other. They are a balance. Just now the dark side is very strong, and very clear about what they want. They have their vision and their priorities clearly held, and also their hierarchy. They are working in many ways so that we will be unable to connect with the spiral Fifth World in 2012."
"On the light side everyone thinks they are the most important, that their own understandings, or their group's understandings, are the key. There's a diversity of cultures and opinions, so there is competition, diffusion, and no single focus."


This bit about the "light" side is important. Everyone wants to be a Buddha. (Well, not the Christians, they would want to be Saints, Angels, etc,) but you get the drift. It goes something like, "Yeah I want peace and enlightenment for all, as long as somehow I am SPECIAL in this process." I have thought about writing a book about the Mysteries, and as the authors name signing, "If everything is ONE, what the hell does MY name matter?" Even the most enlightened seem to forget this very important element. Who you THINK you are, and who you ARE, are not necessarily the same. Who we THINK we are is what is driving the division, the duality, even on the light side. This is also pointed to everywhere, in all traditions.

and then he goes on;


"Ether the element of the Fifth Sun is celestial and lacking in material substance, but is no less real than wood, stone or flesh. "Within the context of ether there can be a fusion of the polarities," Mr. Barrios said. "No more darkness or light in the people, but an uplifted fusion. But right now the realm of darkness is not interested in this. They are organized to
block it. They seek to unbalance the Earth and its environment so we will be unready for the alignment in 2012. We need to work together for peace, and balance with the other side. We need to take care of the Earth that feeds and shelters us. We need to put our entire mind and heart into pursuing unity and fusion now, to confront the other side and preserve life."


The "dark side" is nothing more than Division itself, judgment, duality, whatever you want to call it. It is afraid of Unity because it requires the idea of separateness to exist. All the traditions, including Christianity with its story of the fall from grace by means of "Original Sin" have stories about "what happened." If you think about it, the "knowledge of good and evil" is no more than duality itself. The genesis of division, separation. Once you "know" duality, you must die. Because "Being" is also divided, into life/death, where before there was Being alone. The Eastern traditions are more clear and explicit about this concept, and carry less interpretive baggage, but it is there, everywhere, in all traditions.

To undo this "sin" or illusion of separation is humanities greatest task. The Dark Side, that which was born of Duality, Ego, Identity, Mind, whatever you want to call it, must transform. It cannot be "done away with" as many interpreters mistakenly suggest, instead it must be "un-separated." It must, via Acceptance, Awareness, Love, be pulled back into Unity.

All of this said, language in itself springs from duality, and even the concepts of "Unity/Division are flawed and dualistic in themselves.

Jesus was fond of saying, "Let he who has ears hear." Not because ears were rare among the Israelis of the time, but because "hearing" non-duality must be done with a faculty residing outside the physical ears/brain alone. It may enter the perception via the physical ears, but it must be "heard and understood" with something other than the processor we call the Mind. It must resonate somewhere inside that has not lost attachment to Self.

Which is why the Mysteries can be, (and are) flung around pretty freely. They mean nothing to those aspects of Self operating solely from the "mind," although they can be "repeated" in misleading ways that can add to the confusion. Those aspects that are too strongly divided hear "Truth" it resonates, somewhere as no one is completely divided, but they mistake the message by interpreting it through the "architecture of the mind" which is about distinction, duality, and cannot comprehend on its own, "no distinction."







[edit on 3-2-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]



posted on Feb, 3 2008 @ 01:47 PM
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If you're having trouble wrapping your mind around this one I have a suggestion that may help you grasp this one a little better.

Meditation.

It's amazing what even a few minutes of silence will reveal. Our world is extremely busy, fast-paced, loud, and at times - overwhelming. It's interesting to note that many great minds spent much of their time alone or in silence. Listening.

Have fun with it, enjoy it!



posted on Feb, 3 2008 @ 01:52 PM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 


Well said my friend.



posted on Feb, 3 2008 @ 02:15 PM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 

I didn't go to the link as of yet, so I appreciated reading your post


Oh, yes, regarding authorship, try it


For me, what was most amazing about seeing "the Way", "the Truth", "the Light", was that it truly was "chop wood, carry water". There was nothing I could do but live my Life as it was meant to be lived.

As long as humanity has been on this Earth, we have sung/heard the Same Song, as attested to by some in ancient civilizations who sang the Song so future generations would hear it. For this reason alone, we now must continue singing, so the Song will continue to be heard in the future. The Future really is Now.



posted on Feb, 3 2008 @ 03:39 PM
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Originally posted by desert

For me, what was most amazing about seeing "the Way", "the Truth", "the Light", was that it truly was "chop wood, carry water". There was nothing I could do but live my Life as it was meant to be lived.


Indeed. And that is the most amazing thing is one can do it. If we had to "change the world" by material means, it would seem an impossible task. "Forcing" externals to somehow "come together." The task is an internal one, and it can be accomplished in the simple acts of chopping YOUR wood, and carrying YOUR water. I emphasize YOUR to highlight your point that it is living YOUR Truth, the Truth the individual aspect of Self that "you" are was designed to BE, to live, to speak.

No "ones" role is less important to the process of Be-ing. No "ones" role is more important to the process of Be-ing. Even those that seem "dark" are performing their role, by showing us where the Light of Love/Awareness/Acceptance can be focused. Showing us where we are divided, dualistic. However the path to Unity isnt accomplished by making the error of "other" clear to "other" and trying to convince "other" to "change." It is simply shining the light of Awareness/Love/Acceptance upon it, by seeing what is without and realizing it must also exist within and integrating it within.

Enlightenment is "knowing" that this is an Illusion, a "mistake of perception," our apparent separateness. There are many enlightened ones, in this "time" is is not so rare. More than at any point in "history." We are in the process of Realization. Where the "knowing" becomes complete and the Illusion is dispelled. Where "Unity" is and division is not. (Though this is, as I said before not reflective of the Truth completely, language does not convey properly this state.) "Who" does this is unimportant, utterly, as if this occurs distinction no longer exists as we know it. If the "realization" occurs in some field somewhere, or in some apartment in Manhattan, or on the floor of the stock exchange, or if some "reptilian overlord" "Realizes" it will make no difference. It may even be a collective/group event. "The Who" is just the culmination of the "accomplishments" of the All, (accumulation of KNOWING) they are no more "responsible" for it than every aspect that came before in "time" or any that might arise afterward. If oneness/unity is, what the hell does the "who" matter?

Although for those who have said they could not live without their individuality, you dont. It is both collective/individual and neither collective/indivudual. It is transcendent of the dualistic distinction, and "you" are not "lost." You simply dont Love "you" as an individual anymore than you love any other "aspect of YOU." (Where YOU is the collective) You dont identify Self with any aspect any more than any other. How can it not feel great, (an understatement) to BE "All that is?" The fear of loss of "individuality" is a "paper tiger." The illusion of "individuality" is where fear arises. It "is not" in the "non-dual" state.

Chopping your wood, and carrying your water is the most important task any of us can perform. Seeking "specialness" or "acclaim," (if it isnt YOUR wood or water) is wasted energy in this task. Some may have the task of "acclaim or fame" but it means nothing "special," despite how it is currently perceived, they are just chopping their wood, carrying their water. And it can be a trap, where much promise is "diverted" from Truth by that very acclaim and fame. (That doesnt mean what they SAY may not contain Truth, even if their own "self" or "identity" has gotten lost, dont confuse the message with the messenger. This is where "what is within you" becomes most important, your deepest core Self knows what is True) So your realization is more profound than it sounds to ears that hear only the cultural expectations. It is that sort of life that offers the All the possibility/probability for transcendence.


Originally posted by desert
The Future really is Now.


More true than our minds can grasp, though we are trying. The January 18-25? 2008 issue of New Scientist has a very nice article on what Physics is starting to accept about "time." That it does not reveal any foundational reality. That it is an "artifact of the mind." Julian Barbour, who is mentioned in the article, has proposed this for years.

And thank you so much for this thread, SolPower. I had never seen the link you posted and it is very good. I am "collecting" the bits of Truth out of all the traditions, and that is a fine bit for the collection. Much appreciated.



posted on Feb, 3 2008 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
...It is simply shining the light of Awareness/Love/Acceptance upon it, by seeing what is without and realizing it must also exist within and integrating it within...


This sounds like the admonishment to not put our Light under a basket but to let it shine on/for others.



posted on Feb, 3 2008 @ 11:15 PM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 


I found this very inciteful


Chopping your wood, and carrying your water is the most important task any of us can perform. Seeking "specialness" or "acclaim," (if it isnt YOUR wood or water) is wasted energy in this task. Some may have the task of "acclaim or fame" but it means nothing "special," despite how it is currently perceived, they are just chopping their wood, carrying their water. And it can be a trap, where much promise is "diverted" from Truth by that very acclaim and fame. (That doesnt mean what they SAY may not contain Truth, even if their own "self" or "identity" has gotten lost, dont confuse the message with the messenger. This is where "what is within you" becomes most important, your deepest core Self knows what is True) So your realization is more profound than it sounds to ears that hear only the cultural expectations. It is that sort of life that offers the All the possibility/probability for transcendence


Well said.

[edit on 3-2-2008 by SolPower]



posted on Feb, 4 2008 @ 12:54 AM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

To undo this "sin" or illusion of separation is humanities greatest task. The Dark Side, that which was born of Duality, Ego, Identity, Mind, whatever you want to call it, must transform. It cannot be "done away with" as many interpreters mistakenly suggest, instead it must be "un-separated." It must, via Acceptance, Awareness, Love, be pulled back into Unity.


I don't think it must do anything. It's perfect as it is. There is no problem with the "dark side" as you all so love to call it, until you begin placing lables on it and telling it how to live and what it should do, therefore you become the very judgements, ego, duality, identifier that you are attempting to eradicate and you will perceive only your own reflection bounced off of those that you are boxing in with diminutive labels. There is always identity, there is always duality and unity. Within duality are 2 unities, within unity there must be known a contrast; within unity there is a duality. You say you want to "un-separate", but you're just separating again. You are all that is, even the dark. You are the universe, you are existence.... the light, the dark, the death, the peace, the love, the chaos, both, and neither... because you are interconnected eternally to everything.


All of this said, language in itself springs from duality, and even the concepts of "Unity/Division are flawed and dualistic in themselves.


Language is not flawed, but your understanding, control, and command of what you are trying to express is. When you find the right words and don't give up on yourself and start blaming the language, please reply because I'm interested in you and where you're going.


[edit on 4-2-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]



posted on Feb, 4 2008 @ 02:22 PM
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Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
I don't think it must do anything. It's perfect as it is. There is no problem with the "dark side" as you all so love to call it, until you begin placing lables on it and telling it how to live and what it should do, therefore you become the very judgements, ego, duality, identifier that you are attempting to eradicate and you will perceive only your own reflection bounced off of those that you are boxing in with diminutive labels.


We actually do not disagree on this point. I said in an earlier post,


Even those that seem "dark" are performing their role, by showing us where the Light of Love/Awareness/Acceptance can be focused. Showing us where we are divided, dualistic. However the path to Unity isnt accomplished by making the error of "other" clear to "other" and trying to convince "other" to "change." It is simply shining the light of Awareness/Love/Acceptance upon it, by seeing what is without and realizing it must also exist within and integrating it within.


You are right, judgment and labeling are the "problem." "Division itself" is the "problem." And any attempt to repair this "problem" that focuses on externals, "others," is only going to exacerbate this "problem" by reinforcing the idea of division, or "separateness." You actually have insight into the issue. That is apparent. Where you "go" with it doesnt even follow the dualistic logical "rules" however, and this is the language/mind problem I am speaking about. It isnt your fault, or even necessarily a mistake of your understanding, but a problem with language/mind itself.


Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
There is always identity, there is always duality and unity. Within duality are 2 unities, within unity there must be known a contrast; within unity there is a duality.


I took great pains to elaborate on the fact that Unity as a concept is dual in itself. But it isnt a concept that lends itself well to words.

"but once the distinction, the duality ridden distinction of "One" or "Many" is released the ALL THAT IS, which is both one/many and neither one/many is the Divine. And what if this Divine has never been other than both "us/i" and neither us/i at the core level of "Self" that is Awareness before Identity."


I perhaps should have said "Awareness before personal identity."


Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
You say you want to "un-separate", but you're just separating again.


No, "un-separate" is a clumsy way to point at the what you conclude with.


Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
You are all that is, even the dark. You are the universe, you are existence.... the light, the dark, the death, the peace, the love, the chaos, both, and neither... because you are interconnected eternally to everything.


In this last part you are talking about what I called "un-separate." This is why I stressed that the "answer" is Acceptance/love/Awareness. It IS accepting the "dark." That "dark" in your mind and the minds of others is synonymous with "bad" is part of the problem. Darkness "is," as you are alluding to, and it is no more "problematic" than "light" is. The judgment, the making dual what is intrinsically whole, separation, division itself, is what is "problematic." "Light" is commonly associated with the positive in spiritual traditions, but this is a term that has been chosen because it "reflects" the idea of Awareness, being able to see, comprehend "What Is." "Dark" has been/become associated with the "negative" or "evil" because it reflects the state of "un-Awareness" ie: "he was left in the dark."

Un-Awareness of the "problem" of creating "division" or "judgement" is what is "problematic," as you yourself point out very clearly. You actually are saying the same thing, in different word choices. You are saying it as, "Judgment on the part of people who think they are GOOD (light) is flawed. Judgment itself is flawed." And that is completely consistent with the view I am espousing. "Darkness" can and does lead to behaviour that it inconsistant with harmony in a "whole." You point out that when those who have labeled themselves "light/good" in a judgmental way, that divides and separates them from "bad/dark" are behaving in a way that is inconsistent with some "higher Truth." Precisely. At the same time, what you are not in agreement on is that "those who harm the whole by causing disharmony in the whole" by actions arising out of this "un-awareness" should, via Awareness, correct this misunderstanding so that their actions become harmonious and not divisive. You want the "Light/good" people to see that THEY are acting out of "mistake" and come into harmony, but for some reason you do not want to see that what is commonly and clumsily labeled "dark/bad" is acting out of the same "mistake."

I think you may be so tired of the hypocrisy of the "Light/good" sides claims to some position of moral superiority that you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.


Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
Language is not flawed, but your understanding, control, and command of what you are trying to express is. When you find the right words and don't give up on yourself and start blaming the language, please reply because I'm interested in you and where you're going.


Here, I am going to have to simply disagree. Not that I could not refine my own understanding, command and control, I absolutely agree with you on that. But the "language" problem has been acknowledged by mystics and philosophers alike as long as we have records of their thinking via writing. Greater minds than yours and mine have spent lifetimes trying to figure out a way to "bypass" this problem, and come to the conclusion that it is an impasse. It is too big to tackle in this post in detail, but I will offer you one small attempt.

Words are vehicles that transmit meaning. They "work" when the recipient of a word has the same "meaning" attached to that word as the speaker. However, if the speaker has an experience of something that the listener has no experience of, the words spoken by the speaker about that experience have no where to "land" in the understanding of the listener. There is no common meaning to be shared. Real "communication" is impossible.



posted on Feb, 4 2008 @ 02:40 PM
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I couldnt leave that "small explanation of the problem of language as it stands, and I ran out of characters, so I will continue.


"Words are vehicles that transmit meaning. They "work" when the recipient of a word has the same "meaning" attached to that word as the speaker. However, if the speaker has an experience of something that the listener has no experience of, the words spoken by the speaker about that experience have no where to "land" in the understanding of the listener. There is no common meaning to be shared. Real "communication" is impossible."


At the same time, two people may have HAD the same experience, but do not agree what words, vehicles, are to be used to carry that "meaning." (ie: two people who speak entirely different languages or regional variations of the same language) These people have the same "experience" in "mind" but are throwing words at one another without shared understanding of what that word contains. Communication using words alone is impossible.

What needs to occur for communication of meaning to transpire is that two people (or more) have to have the same or very similar "understanding" or "experience" and also agreement as to what the vehicles signify. If one or the other is "absent" communication is not occurring, they are "talking at" each other.

Plato says of this in his Seventh Letter;


"I did not, however, give a complete exposition, nor did Dionysios ask for one. For he professed to know many, and those the most important, points, and to have a sufficient hold of them through instruction given by others. I hear also that he has since written about what he heard from me, composing what professes to be his own handbook, very different, so he says, from the doctrines which he heard from me; but of its contents I know nothing; I know indeed that others have written on the same subjects; but who they are, is more than they know themselves. Thus much at least, I can say about all writers, past or future, who say they know the things to which I devote myself, whether by hearing the teaching of me or of others, or by their own discoveries-that according to my view it is not possible for them to have any real skill in the matter. There neither is nor ever will be a treatise of mine on the subject. For it does not admit of exposition like other branches of knowledge; but after much converse about the matter itself and a life lived together, suddenly a light, as it were, is kindled in one soul by a flame that leaps to it from another, and thereafter sustains itself. Yet this much I know-that if the things were written or put into words, it would be done best by me, and that, if they were written badly, I should be the person most pained. Again, if they had appeared to me to admit adequately of writing and exposition, what task in life could I have performed nobler than this, to write what is of great service to mankind and to bring the nature of things into the light for all to see? But I do not think it a good thing for men that there should be a disquisition, as it is called, on this topic-except for some few, who are able with a little teaching to find it out for themselves. As for the rest, it would fill some of them quite illogically with a mistaken feeling of contempt, and others with lofty and vain-glorious expectations, as though they had learnt something high and mighty."


There is much more on the problem of understanding in this letter if you care to pursue it further.

classics.mit.edu...

In short, for two human beings who in their minds have different language/word usage patterns, and different "experiential" understandings, language alone, is a problem. Dialog is a great way to negotiate these roadblocks, if there is some language and experiential similarity but not complete agreement. If no experiential similarity about the concept in question exists at all, analogy to a common or shared experience can be attempted, but it has no guarantee of working. The listener may fixate on the analogy and never look in the direction it was intended to "point" them.



posted on Feb, 4 2008 @ 03:37 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
We actually do not disagree on this point. I said in an earlier post,


There is no problem. Everything is already interconnected and that just is the way that it is, and it will always be that way. There is no need to attempt to force change, change is static. Happen will always be. Perfection already is. Communication is happening on a multitude of different levels, always. Language is only one aspect of it... traveling through the air as a sound wave... or being seen on the computer screen.... being touched by hand... or being used as sign language. What you think langauge is... can not be used to communicate alone... but what language actually is... is the only thing that ever communicates... and that is a unviersal language... and our verbiage is a part of it.

Language is not the communication barrier, understanding expressions is. It is not the language that causes miscomprehension, in fact, there is never miscomprehension. It's miscomprehension of what language actually is that causes us to be misunderstood.

I don't believe it's at all about getting others to change, nor perceiving problems... but you continue to say that others need to be shown the light and awareness that you experience... it's about understanding that we all have these so called problems... and that's the way that it is and perfectly always will be. So how can they be called problems? Imperfections can only be met at failed expectations.

We have no choice. We have no free will, and whether we like it or not, we ARE perfect.

[edit on 4-2-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]





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