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A Proposed Framework for Analyzing Anti-Masonry

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posted on May, 3 2008 @ 12:58 AM
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reply to post by freight tomsen
 


When dealing with historical documents, which to back up much of what you've said, you must have or have available to you, their autheticity must be determined by others working in the same fields or areas of expertise in order to be deemed credible.
Simply put, they are asking for credible sources, preferably unbiased, to back up your claims.
Much as anyone here would be obligated to do if they made claims in regards to people or events.
You've made you claims, and cite variouse resources held as noncredible by a large portion of the forum.
And this thread was not aimed at you. You are simply one of a multitude of people who attack Masonry on a regular basis.




posted on May, 3 2008 @ 01:35 AM
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Originally posted by freight tomsen
I have just this week began posting a lot in ATS. I've been a member for almost 2 years but you'll notice I wasn't very active until this month and especially this week. The reason is I've been working on my book The Atlantean Conspiracy and just finished last month. Because of my book, however, the Masons on ATS are very threatened and have steeped this Mason vs. Anti-Mason polarizing debate over the past week.


I know, I know. Your here to hawk your book. Unfortunately it isn't anything substantive. All you do is take unrelated theories in an attempt to weave one giant one that results in massive holes of logic and gapping amounts of errors. This would be like me writing a book about the anti-masons, using masonic sources, and thinking it was authoritative and unbiased. It boggles the mind why you would ever consider your "book" to be valid.

By the way, as an actual published writer in peer reviewed journals, I take offense at you calling that thing a book. Its reads like a rant. Its just my opinion, but then again I guess you want people to look at it since you keep citing it/linking to it.

If you think "masons" are threatened by you taking conspiracy theories from other anti-masons and weaving it to one giant delusion of paranoia, you are wrong. I think I can safely speak for everyone and say: we could care less. No one would even know it existed, if you hadn't come on here and started plugging it in every post.


Originally posted by freight tomsen
I like how you say I'm "attempting to appear victimized," and "using alternate screen names." I have shown where your agents sign in using multiple screen names, but you have never shown that I have, because I never have and never will. You lie and say I'm lying. You "attempt to appear victimized" and say that's what I'm here doing. And you claim I "use alternate screen names" which I've never done, but have caught agents doing here on ATS:


What in the world are you talking about? You do this often. You just randomly post links that have nothing to do with what your talking about, as part of your attempts to drop red herrings on the truth. You - as usual - have proven nothing, and yet claim you have.

Please do tell us who it is that is somehow directing all of the "masonic agents." I assume it would have to be someone from the mythical higher degrees which don't exist, and yet if they were then that would mean us "low level masons" as you have called us would know about the higher degrees. Oops, another hole in your theories. Of course there are no higher/lower level masons, but if you must create these sort of lies please be consistent.

You are a anti-mason agent that is being paid by the NWO to deflect from the world-wide corruption agenda by placing a red herring on masonry. NWO officials are paying you to do this, in order to direct attention away from the truth. Now, I have no proof for this and I am probably just making it up. But so are you.


Originally posted by freight tomsen
What is this about "peer reviewed" papers? You're the third Mason to demand "peer reviewed" documentation of my claims. Where is your peer-reviewed documentation? And where do I get my hands on some peer-reviewed conspiracy research?


I know, it must suck when people demand you use valid sources since you have none. But I'll play along. Peer reviewed means using an academic source that has been reviewed by a group of people who are expert matters in the subject at hand. A lower level review would be done by an academic subject matter expert as a editor, which is done for books. Its quite common at all levels of higher education, it is surprising you have no idea what it is.

Where is my peer reviewed research? Obviously you yet again didn't bother to read the OP, because here it is:



Bibliography

Baumeister, R.F. & M.R. Leary. (1995). The need to belong: desire for interpersonal attachments as a fundamental human motivation. Pscyhology Bulletain, 117(3): 497-529.

Davis, D.B. (1960). Some themes of counter-subversion: An analysis of Anti-Masonic, Anti-Catholic, and Anti-Mormon Literature. Mississippi Valley Historical Review, 47(September 1960): 205-24.

Formisano, R.P. & K.S. Kutolowski. (1977). Antimasonry and masonry: the genesis of protest, 1826-1827. American Quarterly, 29(2): 139-165.

Fowler, J.W. (1995). Stages of faith: The psychology of human development and the quest for meaning. New York: Harper Collins.

Jolicoeur, P.M. & L.L. Knowles. Fraternal associations and civil religion: Scottish Rite Freemasonry. Review of Religious Research, 20(1): 3-22.

Hofstadter, R. (1965). The Paranoid Style in American Politics. New York: Knopf.

Kazin, M. (1998). The Populist Persuasion: An American History. New York: Cornell University Press.

Lipson, D.A. (1974). Freemasonry in Connecticut: 1789-1835. University of Connecticut Dissertation.

Lipset, S.M. & E. Raab. The politics of unreason: right-wing extremism in America, 1790-1970. New York: Harper.

Meyers, G. (1943). History of Bigotry in the United States. New York: Random House.

McCarthy, C. (1902). The Anti-Masonic party. Annual Report of the American Historical Association. Washington: Government Printing Office.

Wilson, J. (1980). Voluntary associations and civil religion: The case of Freemasonry. Review of Religious Research, 22(2): 125-136.


All in all, you as usual have avoided direct questions and refuse to provide proof for anything you say. How surprising.



posted on May, 3 2008 @ 01:44 AM
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Originally posted by freight tomsen
If a "Mason DOESN'T respond immediately" to my posts I have never "posted a follow up asking why the Masons haven't responded." Where are you getting this from? I don't want the Masons to respond to me. I'm not here to talk to you. I know your game, I know how you play, I'm not here to chit-chat with you.


This just keeps getting more funny. Didn't you just say that because masons respond to posts against them, it is proof of a conspiracy? Yet here you are, responding to posts against you. Maybe because your part of the conspiracy against masonry?

Or maybe because you don't want to discuss anything, you just want to provide us with rants from your "book." I'm sorry, thats not how a forum works. I know it must annoy you that you cant slander an entire organization without the organization responding.


Originally posted by freight tomsen
You keep telling me I'm "Anti-Mason" which I've never considered either way until this week. You want me to go Head-to-Head with MasonicLight in the Debate forum. You keep making threads about how certain ATS members are "Anti-Mason" and there's a "Very Real Conspiracy Against Masons." This is the Hegelian Dialectical game you play. You want to polarize my wealth of conspiratorial information (royalty, bloodlines, secret societies, vatican, alternate history, religion, numerology/symbology etc.). You want to minimalize my ability to affect change here on ATS by just making me "Anti-Mason."


Do you even know what the hegelian dialectic is? You should google this stuff before using it. It means to have a fair argument - with both sides being presented. Oh wait, thats just a game to you? Figures, because your more interested in spreading your lies. You don't want to face any opposition.

Like it or not, you are an Anti-Mason. You have stated with others elsewhere that masonry is your enemy. Don't like the label? Then don't make such statements.


Originally posted by freight tomsen
Anyway, it is clear that you Masons OWN the Secret Society forum on ATS and the Above Network is clearly FINE with that happening... so I think I'll leave you Masons to your lies and misinfo and I'll concentrate my posts in other forums where they will be more appreciated. Have fun.


Oh I'm sorry, its clear to you that when everyone doesn't agree with you its a clear conspiracy against you. What's that? Because someone debunks you, your going to move on elsewhere in the hopes that they dont? No worries, friend. There are lots of people who do their research on the internet, mason and non-mason, and throughout ATS. No matter where you go, you won't be allowed to get away with this sort of thing unless its on a closed anti-mason board. Masons arent everywhere, but people who do their research and know lies when they see them are



posted on May, 3 2008 @ 01:45 AM
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I like LightinDarkness, his brand of misinfo is so over-the-top I really don't feel the need to respond or defend myself. I did want to point out though, that your "peer-reviewed bibliography" is cute. You wrote a few meaningless paragraphs in your first post, then you gave us this bibliography of a dozen sources... sources for what? What does that bibliography have AT ALL to do with your original post? Did you have to read all those books to come up with this "Proposed Framework for Analyzing Anti-Masonry?"

[edit on 3-5-2008 by freight tomsen]



posted on May, 3 2008 @ 02:01 AM
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reply to post by freight tomsen
 


Ah yes, when all else fails and your lies are exposed, ignore everything and call the other person names! Your response speaks volumes for all who are interested in finding the truth, and I appreciate you helping me to expose more of the slander offered by anti-masons such as yourself.

Again, it is obvious you have never read the OP or have no idea how people who seek to verify their claims actually write. I used the PEER REVIEWED NON-MASONIC SOURCES to draw together how people like you think, and each time I used information from a particular article or book I put the author's name in parenthesis with the year the source was published. Amazingly, the sources I cited - GASP - APPEAR IN THE BIBLIOGRAPHY. This is how people who are writing real articles write - and it is how all professional and academic writing is done.

I find it very hard to believe that you don't know how peer reviewed writing and citing sources actually works. This sort of stuff is taught in high school and especially college, its pretty common knowledge. You are intentionally trying to hide the truth on this or your education level is not high enough to have encountered such writing. I am not trying to be insulting at all on that by the way, its just an observation. Either your lying, or you've never ran into peer reviewed writing - which is taught at the high school level and a required level of writing in college.

I would also like to note that you have not yet - in any thread - responded to the questions asked of you or refuted the claims that show you to be wrong. You spend all your time doing things like this, questioning my writing style, which is in my opinion an intentional tactic to divert people from the truth.


[edit on 3-5-2008 by LightinDarkness]



posted on May, 3 2008 @ 02:05 AM
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Originally posted by LightinDarkness

You are a anti-mason agent that is being paid by the NWO to deflect from the world-wide corruption agenda by placing a red herring on masonry. NWO officials are paying you to do this, in order to direct attention away from the truth.



Hahaha, this was priceless. You're way more fun than Rockpuck and MasonicLight. My NWO paycheck hasn't come in yet, but I'll keep exposing Masonry "to deflect from the world-wide corruption agenda" anyway.



posted on May, 3 2008 @ 02:12 AM
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reply to post by freight tomsen
 


Oh, the irony. You know its bad when the anti-mason laughs at the very same line of logic that he has the insanity to use against others. You fell for it, my man!

Now you know how we respond when we read the theories you write. I'm still waiting for my Masonic paycheck that you said all the masons were getting for posting


Of course, in yet another attempt to divert from the truth you forgot the last line to that post:



You are a anti-mason agent that is being paid by the NWO to deflect from the world-wide corruption agenda by placing a red herring on masonry. NWO officials are paying you to do this, in order to direct attention away from the truth. Now, I have no proof for this and I am probably just making it up. But so are you.




[edit on 3-5-2008 by LightinDarkness]



posted on May, 3 2008 @ 02:14 AM
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Originally posted by LightinDarkness

Again, it is obvious you have never read the OP or have no idea how people who seek to verify their claims actually write. I used the PEER REVIEWED NON-MASONIC SOURCES to draw together how people like you think, and each time I used information from a particular article or book I put the author's name in parenthesis with the year the source was published.


I noticed that. It sure did look official too. Good on you. How much in-tuition did you pay for your indoctrination?



I would also like to note that you have not yet - in any thread - responded to the questions asked of you or refuted the claims that show you to be wrong. You spend all your time doing things like this, questioning my writing style, which is in my opinion an intentional tactic to divert people from the truth.


What questions/claims specifically? I've responded as I've seen appropriate to each of your threads and posts. I answer your questions with multiple Mason and non-Mason sources and you say "you won't answer my questions" and "you don't provide sources." What questions/claims specifically have I not answered so that I may appease thy lordful royal arch supreme grand commander super duper pontiff's wishes?



posted on May, 3 2008 @ 02:23 AM
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More obsfucation. Freight still isn't responding to any of the direct questions posed to him or any of the evidence used to debunk him. Hes still busy insulting people.


Originally posted by freight tomsen
I noticed that. It sure did look official too. Good on you. How much in-tuition did you pay for your indoctrination?


Whats that, freight? You can't dispute the sources and your upset that non-masonic sources have debunked you and exposed your line of thinking? You just want to insult me instead of actually addressing anything? Gee, who would have thought. By the way, my tuition was free. Private donors made all of my education free, actually. Must be the masons right? Darn me for being a good student!

And of course, you would insult education since it does such a good job at shining the light on your claims. I hope you didn't pay much for your indoctrination in the church of anti-masonry. I would have gladly paid for my induction into reason and logic though, luckily for me it was free =)


Originally posted by freight tomsen
What questions/claims specifically? I've responded as I've seen appropriate to each of your threads and posts. I answer your questions with multiple Mason and non-Mason sources and you say "you won't answer my questions" and "you don't provide sources." What questions/claims specifically have I not answered so that I may appease thy lordful royal arch supreme grand commander super duper pontiff's wishes?


LOL, you have yet to respond to anything but quote from your own ranting book and insult people who disagree with you. What claims? The entire OP for starters. Give it a go. You have yet to use any valid sources. You've responded with anti-mason blogs and writers. If I were interested in lowering myself to your level, I'd use lots of masonic sources to debunk you. But I have a higher standard, and use impartial sources. Use one, and you might find your arguments are actually given some level of credence.

The more you insult, the more it is shown just how little evidence you have. The light of reason and truth blinds those who would seek to hide in the darkness of lies and arrogance.



posted on May, 3 2008 @ 02:25 AM
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Originally posted by LightinDarkness

Oh, the irony. You know its bad when the anti-mason laughs at the very same line of logic that he has the insanity to use against others. You fell for it, my man!



I did!? Oh no, Ashton! Ashton, where are you!? You Punk'd me good.

All along here, I was thinking YOU were paid disinformation agents. You know, because you have a worlwide organization with millions of members who have been repeatedly exposed for centuries trying to overthrow governments, assassinating Anti-Masons or ex-Mason whistle-blowers, conspiring to enter high positions in government, banking, business then through nepotism and secret society bond, continuing the agenda of globalization and centralization of Royal/Vatican/Secret Society control.

You know, I was thinking you guys were paid agents, because I've caught you signing in under multiple screen names where you spend all day on Internet Conspiracy boards trying to prove that Masonry ISN'T a conspiracy!! BUT all along it was ME, the independent researcher with no affiliation to any organization, who was on New World Order payroll in an attempt to red herring people away from the NWO and over to Masons... yup, yes sir.

Actually the New World Order is the "Great Work" of the Old World Order, and the Old World Order is just the Black Nobility, Vatican, and Secret Societies. So I'm not deterring anyone away from the NWO, I'm saying YES there is an NWO and at it's heart are global royalty, secret societies and the Vatican.



posted on May, 3 2008 @ 02:40 AM
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Originally posted by freight tomsen
I did!? Oh no, Ashton! Ashton, where are you!? You Punk'd me good.


Actually that was/is just yet another red herring tactic that you've laid out. I realize I'm going for it, but I'd just like to point out I know what your up to. Because if you were interested in finding truth, the sentence right after what you quoted said I was just making it up to illustrate the absurdity of your claims.


Originally posted by freight tomsen know, because you have a worlwide organization with millions of members who have been repeatedly exposed for centuries trying to overthrow governments, assassinating Anti-Masons or ex-Mason whistle-blowers, conspiring to enter high positions in government, banking, business then through nepotism and secret society bond, continuing the agenda of globalization and centralization of Royal/Vatican/Secret Society control.


More absurdity. Have one ounce of proof for any of this? My favorite part is the "paid disinfo agents" - it just shows how desperate you are when people respond to your claims. Are all of the non-masons who have proved you wrong also disinfo agents? Its a worldwide conspiracy of disinfo!

The only governments that have repressed masonry have been communist and socialist. This is historical fact. I am proud that my organization was hated by those who feared democracy and free thought. I'm sure your type of ideology would be very welcome in the higher echelons of socialist and communist society. That says volumes about your theories. Everything in your above paragraph is just more rubbish and lies for which - surprise - you have no sources or proof. I think I'm going to just start doing the same thing to you that you are doing to us:

I know you are a paid NWO disinformation agent. I know, because you have a worldwide organization with millions of members who have been repeatedly exposed for centuries by making up anti-mason theories and shilling for your NWO masters, assassinating Masons, conspiring to deflect from NWO rule, shilling for banks, shilling for business then through zealotry and lies, continuing the agenda of globalization and centralization of Royal/Vatican/NWO control.


Originally posted by freight tomsen
You know, I was thinking you guys were paid agents, because I've caught you signing in under multiple screen names where you spend all day on Internet Conspiracy boards trying to prove that Masonry ISN'T a conspiracy!! BUT all along it was ME, the independent researcher with no affiliation to any organization, who was on New World Order payroll in an attempt to red herring people away from the NWO and over to Masons... yup, yes sir.


You will do anything to deflect from the fact that you've been debunked, wont you? DO tell us you've caught me signing in under MULTIPLE screen names and that I'm here all day - what other SN's - wheres the proof? Tell me your proof about this. Hey, I'd even invite the moderators to come in - I hope you've told them about this as multiple accouts violated the T&C. Please report me. It just helps shine more light on your paranoid delusions and attempt to play the victim.

This just in: just because different people have debunked you does not mean they are all the same people. Shocking.

In reality it is you, posting as a independent researcher and hiding your ties to the NWO, who is the disinformation agent. Let's think about this, shall we? If I were really a disinformation agent, I would NOT disclose I am a mason. I would act like a non-masonic independent researcher. But wait - isn't that what you've been doing? More evidence that your a disinformation agent. Your cover has been blown. Hey, I'm just making this stuff up like you are. But the holes in your logic are mind blowing.



posted on May, 3 2008 @ 02:49 AM
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Originally posted by LightinDarkness

In reality it is you, posting as a independent researcher and hiding your ties to the NWO, who is the disinformation agent. Let's think about this, shall we? If I were really a disinformation agent, I would NOT disclose I am a mason. I would act like a non-masonic independent researcher. But wait - isn't that what you've been doing? More evidence that your a disinformation agent. Your cover has been blown. Hey, I'm just making this stuff up like you are. But the holes in your logic are mind blowing.


You're right! You've exposed me. I'm a New World Order shill posing as an independent researcher. My book, The Atlantean Conspiracy, which exposes the NWO, was actually written by the NWO, to red herring y'all toward Masons! It's true. I can't lie anymore. The Masons on ATS are like a truth-serum and I can't lie in their presence anymore!

I have seen the Masonic Light and it is too bright for my eyes. Praise Jahbulon!



posted on May, 3 2008 @ 03:03 AM
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reply to post by freight tomsen
 


My friend, I don't think you've caught on. So in order to spare you embarassment: I am using your own fallacious logic and applying it back on you. You are poking fun at your own audacious circular logic, showing that you are lieing. I am showing you how absolutely ludicrous your lie is that somehow everyone who disagrees with you is paid freemason agent, by applying the same logic that you are a NWO disinformation agent.

Your response shows how absurd the line of thought is, and is exactly the reaction everyone has when they read that they've just been made a freemason agent when they disagree with you. Especially since many of them are not masons.

I am illustrating your absurdity. Very successfully, I might add, thanks to your reactions.

[edit on 3-5-2008 by LightinDarkness]



posted on May, 3 2008 @ 03:15 AM
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Originally posted by LightinDarkness

My friend, I don't think you've caught on. So in order to spare you embarassment: I am using your own fallacious logic and applying it back on you. You are poking fun at your own audacious circular logic, showing that you are lieing I showing you how absolutely ludicrous your lie is that somehow everyone who disagrees with you is paid freemason agent, by applying the same logic that you are a NWO disinformation agent.


Ohhhh, is that what you're doing? My friend, you're so tricky. Thanks for "sparing me the embarassment" of my "own audacious circular logic." I was about to really wallow in my own stupidity until you came along to show me the Masonic Light in Darkness. Now I've seen thy Masonic Light, and yay it is good. It is a sarcastic light, a facetious illumination, but humorous nonetheless.



posted on May, 3 2008 @ 03:19 AM
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reply to post by freight tomsen
 


And the more your sarcasm and insults mount, the more it shows you've got absolutely nothing. Reason and logic have defeated your theories, I'm afraid. Not that you've bothered to try to refute any - because then it would be even more obvious.



posted on May, 3 2008 @ 03:25 AM
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For those of you who haven't been following, this whole Mason/AntiMason polarization has just come about since last week's threads:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Please take a moment to look through these threads as well. They are MUCH better than this current one.



posted on May, 3 2008 @ 03:48 AM
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reply to post by freight tomsen
 


Oh whats that freight? You want to divert people from the truth? Too late. You've been exposed. Liar, liar, shame on you. The game is up. Unfortunately for you, most ATS readers are very intelligent and you've exposed yourself completely.

Notice how freight still cant respond to any of the evidence that has debunked him? Because hes just making things up, folks.

Freight doesn't like the spotlight to be shown on him because he isn't a very big fan of truth. Just paranoia and fear mongering. Which is why he doesn't like this thread.

[edit on 3-5-2008 by LightinDarkness]



posted on May, 3 2008 @ 04:07 AM
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Originally posted by LightinDarkness

Notice how freight still cant respond to any of the evidence that has debunked him? Because hes just making things up, folks.

Freight doesn't like the spotlight to be shown on him because he isn't a very big fan of truth. Just paranoia and fear mongering. Which is why he doesn't like this thread.

[edit on 3-5-2008 by LightinDarkness]


No, I don't like this thread because this thread is just you and me bickering back and forth about the events that have transpired in those 4 threads I just linked to. In those 4 threads I give loads of well-documented examples of Masonic conspiracy and a horde of Mason/agents descend upon me with the usual lies/dis/misinfo.

Again, why do all you Masons hang out on ATS all day every day? You've been fighting with me all day every day for a week, and you've been here doing this for years. Do you enjoy this? Why does your organization need such staunch defending from independent researchers like myself, ChadAndrewATS, Cutsbothways, RoadWarrior31 and others?

[edit on 3-5-2008 by freight tomsen]



posted on May, 3 2008 @ 04:12 AM
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reply to post by freight tomsen
 


No freight, I'm afraid I'm going to have to shine the light on your disinformation campaign once again. The PURPOSE of this thread is to examine how anti-masons, like yourself, arrive at the theories you do in the face of all fact to the contrary. Your responses - where you have attempted to misdirect, obsfucate, and otherwise hide the truth from others do not change that fact.

Of course the fact is you can't respond to anything - in the OP or elsewhere in this thread - because your lieing. Your just making stuff up. You are the one who is upset about all this, not me.

I'm still waiting for you to point out 1 lie. From anyone. Point out any flaw in anything I've said - but you don't - because your just here to fear monger. Freight, for all your talking about how much other people hang out on the forum why is it you seem to hang out all night and day? Again, examine your own accusations at your actions before pointing the finger at others.

It's pretty hard for me to be here for years, when I've been a member of the forums for less than a year. Get the facts straight, stop your lying. You've been exposed for what you are.

Now, back on topic - though I know you hate it - do you care to refute or disprove anything in the OP? Or are you going to continue to run from the truth?

[edit on 3-5-2008 by LightinDarkness]



posted on May, 3 2008 @ 04:24 AM
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Originally posted by LightinDarkness

It's pretty hard for me to be here for years, when I've been a member of the forums for less than a year.

Now, back on topic - though I know you hate it - do you care to refute or disprove anything in the OP? Or are you going to continue to run from the truth?


My "You" was plural meaning all of you ATS Masons. Most have been here much longer than "you" LightinDarkness. As for your laughably over-sourced (were those all peer-reviewed?) OP, no, no I do not care to refute or disprove your "proof" of "A Proposed Framework for Analyzing Anti-Masonry." Thanks for asking though. I think what I'm going to do now instead, is post an article about how your New World Order puts fluoride into our public water to dumb us down and keep us docile. Have fun defending your ultra-benevolent organization.




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