Sun worship or Son worship?

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

If we're gonna be comparing gods, Jesus resembles Wotan, if he resembles anyone. And even that's mostly in the "He sacrificed himself to himself upon a tree" part.

You are so right, Horus kinda got singled out because of familiarity I think. I never was I comparing JESUS to others. Mearly that the terms used to describe the SON (or "light" "energy" or "life giving") persons of GOD, also describe our SUN. and that IN FACT the STARS 3 kings (stars of orions belt were called 3 kings THEN and still are) and SIRIUS WILL point to the (HORIZON point, Horus has Risen)) BIRTH of the SUN on Dec 25th. and IN FACT the constellation VIRGO (The VIRGIN) rises JUST above where the SUN rises(before dawn), giving BIRTH to the SUN on DEC 25th MORNING.

AS ABOVE SO BELOW!!!

[edit on 31-1-2008 by KanehBosm]

Mod Edit; Fixed margin busting quote

[edit on 1/31/08 by FredT]

[edit on 1/31/2008 by Cuhail]

and for THREE days the SUN is DEAD in the sky, not moving east or west, and rising (or NOT rising at 66.6 longitude NORTH) for 3 days IN the EXACT spot on the horizon, TO an exact spot in the sky (depending on location) appearing DEAD... NOT MOVING or doing ANYTHING for 3 DAYS. THEN on Dec 25th it begins to move again, gettting higher and higher until SPRING, then it reverses cycle, begins to die CRUCIFIED!! BUT will be BORN again on Dec 25th!! good thing! we NEED the SUN for LIFE... with out OUR SUN!! we would surely die....

Me again. Yes, you can scream in frustration.

Originally posted by KanehBosm
If we're gonna be comparing gods, Jesus resembles Wotan, if he resembles anyone. And even that's mostly in the "He sacrificed himself to himself upon a tree" part.

I was under the impression Wotan and the beliefs surrounding him were held sometime in the fifth century A.D. (therefore after the life of Jesus). Something about how he was inspired by Odin. Please correct me if I am wrong but I don't think he even preceded Christianity so not sure how the pagan inspiration accusation exists in his case.

You are so right, Horus kinda got singled out because of familiarity I think. I never was I comparing JESUS to others. Mearly that the terms used to describe the SON (or "light" "energy" or "life giving") persons of GOD, also describe our SUN.

As you have already admitted, son and sun was not similar in the original languages. However, if you look hard enough you will find similarities in tradition (mostly due to Constantine but not necessarily). Most Christ Myth comparisons are painfully forced. Similarities like Dionysus being the god of wine and Jesus turning water into wine or early Christians using the symbol of a fish while the fish is a symbol of fertility in other cultures. They see a fish in Christianity and paganism and think they exposed a conspiracy even though the symbolism of a fish is completely separate.

Or they see how so many religions believe in an afterlife and then think there is plagiarism going on. Very few things are "nail on the head" similarities. We're bound to find some matches due to sheer probability and statistics. Another one of my favorites is the 12 apostles claiming to represent the zodiac. But with the addition of Barnabas, that makes 13 total. Not to mention the apostles were actual people whose writings exist to this day and are documented to have existed by external sources. The list goes on. Nothing so far has made me throw in the "faith towel."

and that IN FACT the STARS 3 kings (stars of orions belt were called 3 kings THEN and still are)

Don't remember where the Christian tradition of three wisemen originated but the specific number of the Magi is never given in the Bible.

and SIRIUS WILL point to the (HORIZON point, Horus has Risen)) BIRTH of the SUN on Dec 25th.

and IN FACT the constellation VIRGO (The VIRGIN) rises JUST above where the SUN rises(before dawn), giving BIRTH to the SUN on DEC 25th MORNING.

Again, many (as in dozens) of figures had their celebrations moved to December 25th under Constantine. But Horus was not one of them. His has always been in November. And most scholars do not believe Jesus' birth occurred in the winter, nevertheless December 25th. This would all be solved once and for all if the Roman census records recording His birth would have existed unto our time. Justin Martyr had referenced the documents to show Jesus' birth being recorded in the record but never documents when. Poop on him!

"There is a village in Judea, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, where Jesus Christ was born, as you can see from the tax registers under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judea..." Justin Martyr, First Apology 34.

Originally posted by KanehBosm
and for THREE days the SUN is DEAD in the sky, not moving east or west, and rising (or NOT rising at 66.6 longitude NORTH) for 3 days IN the EXACT spot on the horizon, TO an exact spot in the sky (depending on location) appearing DEAD... NOT MOVING or doing ANYTHING for 3 DAYS. THEN on Dec 25th it begins to move again, gettting higher and higher until SPRING, then it reverses cycle, begins to die CRUCIFIED!! BUT will be BORN again on Dec 25th!! good thing! we NEED the SUN for LIFE... with out OUR SUN!! we would surely die....

Er... the "death of the sun" immediately being described as "crucified" is a stretch. It's not making paganism the source of Christianity- that is making Christianity pagan with pained force. Where are you quoting from anyways (if at all)? Obviously something that postdates Christianity. Regardless, Jesus was not born in December to our knowledge and his crucifixion coincided with the Jewish Passover- not at the summer equinox in the summer where the sun is "at it's highest." The cycle does not begin to wane until the summer. Just my two cents.

I am sorry I didn't use my words wisely. Everything about the the STARS is FACT. DEAD in the sky, not moving in the sky for 3 days, yep symantics.... my thesis was, why do ALL these stories coralate with the STARS? when and WHERE the "sun" of GOD is born on that day, follow by 3 (kings) stars, aligning with brightest eastern star, and is BORN just after virgo rises, and in SPRING, NEAR easter, it begins to DIE or FALL towards the HORIZON again (horus has risen, sun SET the brother) why is the descriptions of the SUN and the SON the same in ALL these ways, in ALL these stories, not their mothers, mangers, magi,and who did what.... why are the description of the CHARACTERISTICS or the descrbed son of god, also the same as the sun from our GOD? MAYBE this story is MULTI DIMENSIONAL? not just one dimension? for those who go deeper maybe they recognize that somehow, AS ABOVE SO BELOW!!!!

At the last supper Jesus is asked to the affect, when will we know the coming of man and the new age. His reply in affect, when you see a man holding a picture of water enter his house. Aquarius is a man holding a picture of water, thats the symbol for this zodiac "house" as they call them.... was this a clue?,... we are in the dawning of the age of aquarius? I don't know alot about astrology AT all.

[edit on 31-1-2008 by KanehBosm]

Originally posted by KanehBosm
At the last supper Jesus is asked to the affect, when will we know the coming of man and the new age. His reply in affect, when you see a man holding a picture of water enter his house. Aquarius is a man holding a picture of water, thats the symbol for this zodiac "house" as they call them.... was this a clue?,... we are in the dawning of the age of aquarius? I don't know alot about astrology AT all.

Where is this in the Bible? The only thing that mentions anything remotely similar is Mark 14:12-26 (verses 12-13 especially):

"...Jesus' disciples asked Him, 'Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?' So He sent two of his disciples telling them, 'Go into the city and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you...'"

The context is only talking about preparation for the Passover- not His second coming.

The other Last Supper references are Matthew 26:17-30 (only about Passover but not about water) and Luke 22:7-20 (same thing with the water but only about the Passover).

Nothing to do with Aquarius. But thanks- now I have that stupid song stuck in my head! "This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius. Age of Aquariuuuuuuuus. Aquariuuuuuuuuuuus. AquAIIIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRius."

[edit on 1/31/2008 by AshleyD]

"The context is only talking about preparation for the Passover- not His second coming.

this context and conversation between the disciples and the death and RETURN is ONLY talking about passover? not what christians need to do also for the return? it doesnt say that part in the Bible... is that called interpretation? or YOUR perspective? based on the YOUR studies of the OTHERS who studied this? ONLY TALKING ABOUT PASSOVER? not a multi dimensional perspective or interpretation of that event at all, and unique really.... but TRULY is a VALID point.

[edit on 31-1-2008 by KanehBosm]

Anyone ever notice "scientific prove it points" go so deep and perpetuates even deeper as the process moves along? Why do humans like to complicate things simply to be right or correct another that they deem as wrong.

Im so glad im not smart

Can someone fix the OP quoted text, it is stretching the page big time . . .
And now for something completely different:

Originally posted by AshleyD

That is kind of a cop-out in my opinion. 1) This is not my thread nor is it a thread to prove Christianity. 2) It is a thread saying Jesus was copied from pagan myths but no solid evidence is provided. Only personal assertions- nothing from an actual religious text that precedes the life of Jesus. 3) Some of us have meticulously and painstakingly researched ancient documents and the history of Christianity including Jesus as a historical figure, the history of the apostles and early Christians, and the canonization process before we accepted the faith and the Bible as factual. No everyone goes by "one book." 4) Some have had personal divine encounters that further validate the Bible for them even if they cannot replicate the experience for others.

Solid evidence of Jesus exits? Can YOU prove that? You contradict yourself in your post by saying the OP is making personal assertions but you are doing the same. Opinion and conjecture much? Religious text? Made religious by whom? You? Others?

You can be as meticulous as you like in your research but the is no historical FACT of Jesus and the apostles, and there is def. no proof that he was the SON of God. It is usually called blind faith. Which you are entitled to but this does not make is FACT.

How can someone validate the bible with the bible? Never mind, the question is redundant. I am not trying to argue but you are questioning the OP for doing the same things that you yourself are in fact guilty of.

And sorry but Personal Divine encouters validate nothing except to the person that supposedly had said encouter(s).

[edit on 1/31/2008 by bobafett1972]

reply to post by AshleyD


Wotan and Odin are, for all intents and purposes, the same dude, and were worshiped by Germanic and proto-Germanic peoples for a good while. I'm not saying that Christians are ripping off Odinism there - though I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were some syncretic elements after the Germanic tribes (and later the Scandinavian tribes) converted.

It's my belief that most religions follow a common archetype, that somewhere stuck in our more primitive brains, there are symbols and gestures we respond to more strongly than others - Basic shapes such as circles or crosses, ideas such as self-sacrifice or the bringing of knowledge, that sort of thing.

That said, I don't really think there are any religions devoid of influence from neighboring religions. Christianity's not a ripped-off religion, but you've have to be a fool to think it's 100% original material, either. The trick is taking old ideas and putting them in a new light or giving them an interesting twist...

Originally posted by KanehBosm
"The context is only talking about preparation for the Passover- not His second coming.

this context and conversation between the disciples and the death and RETURN is ONLY talking about passover? not what christians need to do also for the return? it doesnt say that part in the Bible... is that called interpretation? or YOUR perspective? based on the YOUR studies of the OTHERS who studied this? ONLY TALKING ABOUT PASSOVER? not a multi dimensional perspective or interpretation of that event at all, and unique really.... but TRULY is a VALID point.

Well, first of all I already believe the Gospel is encoded in the stars for several valid reasons so please don't think I'm being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. There is evidence the ancient Hebrews knew of this wisdom and Josephus records artifacts believed to be left behind by Seth, the son of Adam, with all sorts of astronomical science and the Biblical story and history. Unfortunately, they did not survive to our time. We are also told the Heavens declare His wonder and that the sun, moon, and stars will serve as signs to us but not for astrological or fortune telling purposes. Because I believe we were all apart of the one true religion that worshiped Yahweh before distortion crept into various belief systems, this is why I believe some have these similarities but they are not so precise like crucifixions, mangers, wisemen, etc. Only Christianity has the whole caboodle. Just personal speculation based on my beliefs and what we are told: that there was a primordial religion at one point that stayed true to the Judeo-Christian God. Anyways...

...It is not my personal interpretation. It is there in black in white that this relates to where the Passover meal (the Last Supper) will be celebrated and never even alludes to His second coming. For your observation: Mark 14:12-25. Jesus' end times warning consisted of His Olivet Discourse as well as a few veiled parables. Nothing to do with a man with water or Aquarius.

[edit on 1/31/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by KanehBosm
I am sorry I didn't use my words wisely. Everything about the the STARS is FACT. DEAD in the sky, not moving in the sky for 3 days, yep symantics.... my thesis was, why do ALL these stories coralate with the STARS?

People were really big into astrology, synchromysticism and other various occult things.

Three wise men were called wise because they understood esoteric things.

Originally posted by bobafett1972
Solid evidence of Jesus exits? Can YOU prove that?

Should I have to? Is that what this thread is about? Yes, there are several historical references to show Jesus existed in (here I go again) secular, pagan, Jewish, and external Christian sources from the first and second centuries. So there is much evidence. I cannot prove He existed but I can provide evidence and historical documentation. I also cannot prove Alexander the Great, Socrates, Plato, or Appollionus existed but we can believe so beyond a reasonable doubt. You prove to me Socrates existed and I will provide the same level of evidence concerning Jesus' existence.

You contradict yourself in your post by saying the OP is making personal assertions but you are doing the same.

The burden of proof lies on the one making the claims. Not on the one questioning them. If I made a thread saying Jesus was a true historical person then the burden of proof would be on me. I have not done this.

You can be as meticulous as you like in your research but the is no historical FACT of Jesus and the apostles

There is also no historical FACT Socrates existed. But we can reasonably believe the sources and eye witness testimony.

and there is def. no proof that he was the SON of God. It is usually called blind faith.

This is where it takes faith. Knowing He existed takes two eyeballs researching historical documents. Believing He was the son of God takes faith but I wouldn't call it blind. Especially with what the witnesses went through defending their view. It still take faith though.

How can someone validate the bible with the bible?

We're not. There are hundreds of historical documents, pieces of archeological references, and eye witness testimony to validate much of the Bible. I can't prove Methuselah lived to 969 years old but I can provide evidence for the tower of Bible. I cannot prove Adam and Eve existed but I can show you how evolutionary science believes we have one male and one female common ancestor. I can't prove Jesus walked on water but I can look at eye witnesses testimony that says he did and the other eye witnesses testimony that verifies the person person who claimed such things died proclaiming them. In the end, it takes faith which is why I'm not interested in proving anything to anyone.

I am not trying to argue but you are questioning the OP for doing the same things that you yourself are in fact guilty of.

They made the thread so they provide the proof. When I make a thread saying everyone should believe Jesus is God, then you can ask me the same thing.

And sorry but Personal Divine encouters validate nothing except to the person that supposedly had said encouter(s).

Which is why I explicitly used the term personal and stated it can not be replicated for others. I always choose my words carefully because I know there are semantics obsessed individuals on ATS and those that will completely ignore the O.P. and go after my posts. Again, the burden of proof is not mine at this time.

Site your sources or close the thread. If you cannot get real creditable sources and list them why bother starting a thread? List the sources to back up the basis of your points. No one should have to go out and search a bunch of useless websites just to find out that old false opinions are being regurgitated without any actual facts. Your first tip on the Internet is to not believe everything you read on the Internet.

reply to post by AshleyD


So you can question others about things in your posts in this thread and in doing so you introduce remarks about supposed historical facts and I in turn ask for fact supporting what you claim but I can't since this isn't about that even though you put it in your post? Like my run on sentence? But I guess I was confused because I quoted something you said in your post and questioned you on it, so how am I off topic?



It may be personal but it was still brought up and my post actually did my comment to Jesus and there being no proof that he was in fact the son of God so it wasn't completely off topic.

Though I have to disagree that there is ANY historical proof. Why? Your talking about a religion where I'll bet 3/4 of the so-called followers think he name was in fact Jesus Christ.

And just because artifacts and landmarks exist doesn't prove anything in the bible that is not proven in any other work of fiction. Find me one piece of literature that does not have the very same things in it.

It has nothing to do with semantics. And I am not obsessed. Thanks though. So your logic is, I should only address the person who started the thread and not those who comment and try do disprove his posts? This makes no sense. The purpose is to interact with one another, regardsless if we agree with the OP or not. You post stuck out at me, I wanted to comment. It is nothing against you or your character because you seems like a very intelligent individual, having read your posts before. But like I said, if you expect me to not comment of what you or anyone else says because it isn't about the OP, you are mistaken.

~B


edit for spelling because I fat fingered the keyboard ~B

[edit on 1/31/2008 by bobafett1972]

reply to post by AshleyD


Well, as you've noticed it's tangental, but I was under the impression that most historical accounts of Jesus are vague or in some cases, fake, and there's a definite lack of first-hand accounts

For instance, Josiphus's mention is Jesus in the Testimonium Flavianum is out of character for the writer, who apparently undergoes a five-minute conversion, then deconverts after writing the passage. It's generally agreed on that this is in fact a forgery by later scribes.

Tacitus mentions Christians and their beliefs, but never directly confirms whether the guy is a historical figure

Suetonius mentions that a "Chrestus" fellow caused a Jewish riot against the empire. Doesn't sound very Jesus-y, and Chrestus was a pretty common slave name

Then again, the same problem exists for a lot of historical figures. So it's pretty safe to presume there WAS a man named Yeheshua ben Yosef in the Galilee who taught a version of Judaism regarded as heretical at the time, and was executed on charges of treason against the Roman Empire.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


The Josephus passage: See my full take on the Testimonium passage HERE from my own website. We believe the "factual" part is authentic but not the "He was the Christ" parts. Those were most likely interpolated by Christians. It is possible, at least. As to Josephus' second reference, known as the James-Jesus reference, it comes under very little question as no copy of Josephus' work has surfaced that does not contain the passage.

The Tacitus passage: (HERE). He records Jesus' death as being in the form of crucifixion, places it in the time of Pilate, in Judea, as records Jesus being the founder of the faith. I would say that is more historical than theological.

The Suetonius passage: (On the same page as the Tacitus reference and I dissect it in depth). An interesting thing that I never put on my website is that the same expulsion of the Christian from Rome by Claudius is also recorded in Acts. It would make logical sense to believe these were the same events as neither account contradict the other. But see my site to see how I break it down. Even Christian historians sometimes used the name "Chrestus" and "Chrestians" to refer to Jesus and Christians.

Originally posted by zerotime
Site your sources or close the thread. If you cannot get real creditable sources and list them why bother starting a thread? List the sources to back up the basis of your points. No one should have to go out and search a bunch of useless websites just to find out that old false opinions are being regurgitated without any actual facts. Your first tip on the Internet is to not believe everything you read on the Internet.

Zerotime; please allow the staff to decide what threads stay open,
If the members in this thread want links or sources I’m sure there very capable of asking.
Please if you have something more constructive to ad to "Sun worship or Son worship?"please do.

Originally posted by bobafett1972
So you can question others about things in your posts in this thread and in doing so you introduce remarks about supposed historical facts and I in turn ask for fact supporting what you claim but I can't since this isn't about that even though you put it in your post? Like my run on sentence? But I guess I was confused because I quoted something you said in your post and questioned you on it, so how am I off topic?

Yes it's perfectly acceptable. It just butters my biscuits when people ignore the O.P and only go after other posters asking them to disprove the O.P. instead of asking the O.P. to provide the proof. My own neurosis and problem- not yours. See the link I gave to Walking Fox above. It's by no means thorough. Many others do a better job and provide more sources than my site. I just wanted to give a brief rundown.

And just because artifacts and landmarks exist doesn't prove anything in the bible that is not proven in any other work of fiction. Find me one piece of literature that does not have the very same things in it.

I also mention this on my site. The existence of historical and correct facts mentioned in the Bible is nothing terribly exciting. As you said, even works of fiction include real places and people. Anyone can look around to see what is going on in the world. But it would be a major issue if the Bible constantly mentioned spurious people and places like other religious texts do. The Hittites, the pool of Bethesda, Nebuchadnezzar, Darius (etc. to infinity) were all believed to be spurious people and places mentioned only in the Bible until modern archeology confirmed them. So, it is only evidence and confirmation. Not proof. But things written "post event" weren't wrong either even if they were not around to personally observe them.

It has nothing to do with semantics. And I am not obsessed. Thanks though.

I wasn't trying to imply you were in particular. It just happens quite a bit on ATS, so I've noticed.

[edit on 1/31/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by Sauron
Zerotime; please allow the staff to decide what threads stay open,
If the members in this thread want links or sources I’m sure there very capable of asking.
Please if you have something more constructive to ad to "Sun worship or Son worship?"please do.

Why if the staff are incapable? Sorry, I just thought that anyone making outrageous claims should back them up with real creditable sources. Crazy thought these days on ATS I know. All I am asking for is credible historic sources to back up controversial claims. Two pages and not one history source is given. You would think ATS moderators would want something better than these threads but maybe not. I don't know what ATS is good for anymore besides outrageous over the top claims, bashing and hysteria and paranoia.