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The true miracle of Israel

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posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 06:51 PM
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reply to post by DocMoreau
 

Simple facts:

Palestine is not an Islamic entity - it has Christian, B'Hai and other citizens - it has never claimed to be an Islamic state.

Israel is not a Jewish state - it has Muslims in the Knesset and in every other walk of life. It has a significant Christian population.

Extract fromthe Israeli Declaration of Independence"

"The Declaration of Independence determined that the State of Israel will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; and it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions. In the very midst of the onslaught launched against it, the State of Israel extended its hand to those who sought its destruction, in an offer of peace and good neighborliness."

Neither the Palestinian National Charter, nor the PLO Constitution mention the words Islam or Muslim even once.

Therefore you are totally misinformed.

As regards Anti - Semetism, I never mentioned it.

Like who you like - dislike who you dislike - it's your right.

I have a particular dislike of the Israeli government, matched by an identical dislike of the PLO/Hamas.

It will take much better people than either of those to solve the problem.

I wouldn't shake hands with either.

Be well - I understand what you're saying - and your points are valid - just enjoying a bit of robust debate.




posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 07:06 PM
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reply to post by azblack
 


I really admire you for what you said in this post, and it's clear that it came from the heart. There needs to be an understanding of the fact venom and vitriol won't solve the problem. By continually defining the Palestinians as nothing but victims does them a great disservice and actually devalues and degrades them.

Similarly, defining the Israelis as Uzi carrying fascists, who kill Palestinians at every opportunity devalues and degrades them.

This conflict has gone on for so long that both sides are deeply traumatized and damaged emotionally.

Apart from any political solution, it will take generations to heal the wounds.

Be Well, and keep believing in what you believe in.



[edit on 6-2-2008 by Albin]



posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 08:36 PM
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reply to post by Albin
 
I think I left out some of the problematic grudges or defensiveness the Jewish people of Isreal display openly. I hoped to give a balanced view of these issues but I didn't want to ramble. I was most intrested in agood friend of mine who recently returned from the military and some time in Israel. The thing that stood out in his mind was the way the Jewish people were so adamate in their defenses. He said they were on a constant state of alert for any actions against their community, He specified not just the Palestenians, which really caught my interest. He said they seem so serious or in a constant state of shock permanantly. He attributed this to the centuries of judgement and persecution.

One more thing I thought interesting; He was helping at the border of Bethleham(I believe it is close to Jeruselum). The Palestenian state is in control of this area. He spoke with a Christian family and was remarking how much history, religious especially was in this area, He told them in the U.S. we're lucky to know where our family's history originated even a 100 years ago. The gentleman told the story of his family I'll try to make it quick! (sorry I feel it to be important) He said his family had lived in the grotto or villa type area for THOUSANDS of years. My buddy took out the old testament and showed me their surname in that book. One of their ancestors 2 yr old was taken from that very place by king Herrod. They converted to Christianity after Jesus' teachings and have resided there since. After thousands of years living in this area some Palestinian factions have started to pressure them to leave. At times they try to argue the Groups will show up in the middle of the night, preach to them that he is part of the opressors blood and rapes his children for punishment in the name of Allah.

The weird thing for me is in the Bible it does teach the Jews were freed from bondage and chosen as God's people 'cause of their graciousness and willingness to turn the other cheek so to speak. I think they have changed after years of opression and have become tense and volitile as a result. The Bible also says he who opposes tehm will fall eventually, and those who help will be blessed. It is very intresting they have even survived after all those years. Is it devine intervention, well I think it played out exactly as the Bilble says it would've which is far more than coincidince con sidering their odds in these conflicts. Yeah we've helped alot during these times, as others have, but it seems we had little choice most of the time, which kinda seems like fate if anyone here can believe in that. I mean to say the Jewish people need to let go of the past and move on to be a balanced society and not so defensive.



posted on Feb, 7 2008 @ 04:31 AM
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reply to post by Albin
 


Interesting that you try to designate Palestine and Israel as two separate countries. I guess if enough people lie enough, that makes it the truth.

The Israeli Muslims, they are called Palestinians. The Jews who lived in the Region before 1948, Palestinians. The Christians who live outside the walls, Palestinians. For Hundreds of years, it was Palestine. You can call which ever ones you choose to pick out from the group 'Israelis' to add to the millions of immigrant Jews if it better suits your position. To me your position is flawed from its inception because no amount of quoting illegal constitutions and the like are really going to change that.

WWII happens and Jews of European Decent need a homeland. Of course that homeland has to be the ancestral homeland of Semitic Jews, not Ashkenazi Jews. But since they are 'God's Chosen People' and have suyffered 'so much' that we have had to fix the fit of the square peg in a round hole lubricated by billions of hours of American Labor Dollars.

Thanks for the robust Debate as you called it, but in no means have I ever been 'totally misinformed.'

DocMoreau



posted on Feb, 7 2008 @ 09:03 AM
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reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 


Palestine was actually created as a Palestinian state. You've heard of the UN Partition Plan? The 1948 war? That was all over the fact that there were going to be two countries where the Gaza Strip, Israel, and the West Bank now sit - an Israel, and a Palestine.


After the Romans put down the 66-70 AD Jewish rebellion in Judea, they merged the province of Judea with Galilee and Samaria and changed the name of the region to Syria Palaestina. Note: Before this reorganization of the area, Judea was the small region around Jerusalem, about 450-500 square miles. (1,150-1,300 sq km).

Aside: It should be kept in mind the concept of fixed boundaries and secure borders is a modern concept. It can be dated as Post 14th century. Prior to that, each city of any good size exercised some hegemony in its immediate vicinity. As cities waxed and waned, the area over which they exerted influence changed accordingly. The widely popular and distressingly influential maps found in the back of a good India paper KJV Holy Bible were all “made up” by English or American cartographers in the 19th century. End.



The trouble is, the partition plan was horribly, horribly skewed. The minority population - the Jews in the Palestinian mandate - would get the majority of the land. Included in this land grant would be every stretch of productive farmland, the ports on the Red Sea, and total control of the region's only sources of fresh water - the Arab majority would get whatever was left.


And followed the 1948-49 War of Independence (Jewish name) then the 1956 Adventure at Suez when Israel joined Britain and France to undo the seizure of the Suez Canal by Gamal Abdul Nasser. Although a miscue by the Eisenhower Administration precipitated the canal seizure, Ike tired to smooth things over by successfully ordering the Brits, Franks and Israelis out of Egypt. (Ike's blunder opened the Middle East to Soviet intrigues lasting until 1991). Then came the Six Day War of 1967, followed by the 1973 Yom Kippur War and it was followed by the 1982 incursion into Lebanon, and most recently, the 2006 RAMPAGE by the IDF in Lebanon.

The seizure of the Temple Mount in East Jerusalem in 1967 is the prime cause celebre of the jhadist. One of the 3 reasons offered by Osama bin Laden for the Nine Eleven Event. The Temple Mount is the number 3 holy site in Islam behind Mecca and Medina. It is the location of the Dome of the Rock - where Abraham was about to offer Isaac and later, from which the Holy Prophet Mohammad ascended into Heaven and returned. The al-Aqsa Mosque (The Farthest Mosque) is equally revered by Muslims. Note: “Al-Aqsa” commonly refers to the southern congregational mosque located in Jerusalem, though according to Islamic law the entire complex known today as Al-Haram al-Qudsi al-Sharif (The Noble Sanctuary) to Muslims, including the Dome of the Rock, is considered part of the Al-Aqsa Mosque. From Wikipedia.

This problem is compounded by the fact the Temple Mount is supported on one side by the West Wall or Wailing Wall, the high holy site in Judaism. Devout Jews believe this is the last remnant of Solomon’s Temple. Some provision would have to be made to secure the safe and peaceful worship by Jews at the West Wall. To this end it was proposed long ago that the UN be placed in charge of the Temple Mount and the West Wall. As I recall, both Jewish and Muslim religious leaders rejected the offer.

Secular historians now seriously question whether the first 3 kings of the Holy Bible ever existed. King Saul, King David and King Solomon. It is believed the kings are mythical and are not real. In other words, there never was a Solomon’s Temple, no Ark of the Covenant and no stone wall remnant. The West Wall was substantially rebuilt when Helena - Constantine’s mother - toured the Holy Land in the early 4th century and (miraculously) “located” all the venerated Holy Sites now so dear to Christendom. The wall was again rebuilt around the 6 th century and may have been worked on at other times as well. Especially in the 13th century. It is unfortunate that digging is not allowed so we could establish the truth, but neither Muslim, Jew nor Christian is willing to expose its position to the truth. Who said "a big lie told often becomes the truth?"


Unfortunately for the Arab side of things, the Israelis followed the European school of war - destroy your enemy, crush his home, eat his last slice of pizza - while the Arabs followed the Arab school of war - make a loud noise and hope it scares your enemy away. We can see how that ended.


Yes, with great regret. And now the fundamentalist End-Timers are running our country. If you had asked me if that was possible 20 years ago, I would have laughed! Now I am crying. Reasonable people tend not to be fanatical, whereas irrational people tend to be fanatics. I laughed at Jimmy Swaggart, but I guess he is having the last laugh; his antics still have a multi-million dollar following. It is hard to be nice to people who will not be nice to you if given the opportunity.

Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) put it succinctly:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.


[edit on 2/7/2008 by donwhite]



posted on Feb, 7 2008 @ 12:25 PM
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Point well made Don White -- we're all together in this human race thing and we really ought to start living like it.



posted on Feb, 7 2008 @ 04:47 PM
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reply to post by peace82670
 
Live and Let Live.

I agree. All sides in the Palestine/Israel conflict should have multiple Parleys until some sort of all time truce can occur. Unfortunately, I am not sure that will happen without more pressure and less funds from the United States. Unlikely at the time being.

Hopefully the ultimate 'Miracle of Israel' will be one where the bloodshed ceases, and humans start acting like humans for a change. EVERYONE needs to learn to share and get along. Like a bunch of spoiled 5 year olds...

I share these images done by the artist Banksy from the Palestinian side of Israel's separation wall in the hope that 'Change' has already begun.







PEACE
DocMoreau



posted on Feb, 7 2008 @ 06:26 PM
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reply to post by DocMoreau
 

I agree. All sides in the Palestine/Israel conflict should have multiple Parleys until some sort of all time truce can occur.


Unrealistic, Dr M. We - the West - created this irreconcilable condition in 1948 when out of true remorse and a sense of guilt for having contributed to the Holocaust albeit indirectly, we chose to GIVE the Jewish survivors of 1,000 yeas of Christian persecution a place to call their own, neglecting that other people already lived there. Yet one more defect of Western culture rearing its ugly head. That white Euro-types are smarter and know better than dark skinned people.

So here we are. The Arabs say "recognize our right of return.” Israel says blankety-blank you Arabs, we have 50-300 nuclear weapons and we will use them! And you think - hope - more of PARLEY will cure this unstoppable demand crashing into the unmovable resolve?

Be honest. Right now everything is going Israel’s way. The Arabs are being worn down. Gradually being shoved out of old Palestine. The Jewish people are the inexorable force, moving every day deeper and deeper into that little piece of Mother Earth WE were willing to give the Arabs. At the present rate of settlement expansion, this will be a non-issue by 2065. ALL the land except Gaza - which is worthless - will be under total control of the Jewish people of Israel. Because the US backs Israel without question - like the 2006 IDF rampage in Lebanon - what is the motive of Israel to PARLEY? What can beat a ace high straight flush?

Maybe an Arab atom bomb? Located in Tel Aviv. Detonated without warning. What would our surrogate Israel do? Atom bomb Damascus, Cairo, Baghdad and Tehran? Or atom bomb Mecca and Medina? This issue will ultimately be resolved. How remains for us to work on. But I can tell you one thing for sure. It won't be done in Annapolis.

[edit on 2/7/2008 by donwhite]



posted on Feb, 7 2008 @ 11:07 PM
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Originally posted by donwhite
[
Unrealistic, Dr M. We - the West - created this irreconcilable condition in 1948 when out of true remorse and a sense of guilt for having contributed to the Holocaust albeit indirectly, we chose to GIVE the Jewish survivors of 1,000 yeas of Christian persecution a place to call their own, neglecting that other people already lived there. [edit on 2/7/2008 by donwhite]


Or ...the US elite decided it would be wise to have a client state in the Middle East in a perpetual state of conflict with the indigenous people of the region in order to exploit a needed resource and continually justify this state with moral platitudes.

[edit on 7-2-2008 by Leo Strauss]



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 09:43 AM
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Don White... "Because the US backs Israel without question"

We need to start questioning. An unethical decision in the past is the past and each day we're given the opportunity to choose to stay the course or change the status quo. Not saying its easy.

If I think and feel beyond to the more paranormal part of me -- I sense a deep seeded lack of cooperation in Jewish Israel -- that has sadly increased the same in Arab Israel. Its like children really when one can't let the other share parental love and attention. So its really a spiritual maturity that is being denied and in a karmic way beggets antisemitism. If forgiveness could occur, healing could begin on both sides.

This is the same root issue -- lack of forgiveness -- that is also at play in race relations and other cultural conflicts, Serbia, Cyprus, Northern Ireland.

People learn to harbor hurt. Learning to release it and live on I believe is an aspect of the purpose of life. Its sad to see it so f'd up in certain parts of the world.



posted on Feb, 9 2008 @ 01:51 PM
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reply to post by Leo Strauss
 


Or ...the US elite decided it would be wise to have a client state in the Middle East in a perpetual state of conflict with the indigenous people of the region in order to exploit a needed resource and continually justify this state with moral platitudes.


I have also thought of this being our intentional policy towards the ME. And that buttressed by the fact that in international affairs, nothing happens by accident. We could have ended the Arab Israeli conflict anytime we wanted. The Israeli Government is hard at work “ethnic cleansing” the area. It ought to be obvious to any astute observer the Israeli government has NO intention of accommodating the Palestinians. Camp David, Oslo and Annapolis were all for the benefit of the American public.

The greatest fear we have is popular revolt in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the other Persian Gulf oil producers. The rebels would nationalize the oil fields and expel ExxonMobiil, TexacoChevron and ContinentalPhillips. It is not at all clear that the rebels would raise the price of crude. But it is clear that the oil sheiks extravagance beyond mortal man’s imagination would be ENDED.

If it proved possible for the ME to re-organize itself with the 90% common man on the TOP instead of his perennial position on the BOTTOM (both there and here), then similar revolts would likely occur south of the Rio Grand and Viola! in a few months or years, the whole world would be run for the benefit of all the people living here and not just for the minuscule minority who are presently reaping 99% of the benefits.

That is the greatest fear of the American government. A democratic world

[edit on 2/9/2008 by donwhite]



posted on Feb, 11 2008 @ 12:44 PM
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Ironic. What all peoples, all nations, all religions (pick your lens) have in common is this planet and the human condition on this planet. Beyond our involvement in religion or politics, we each need to develop greater personal ethics and support that development in individuals worldwide. It is not in the interest of business or governments for that respect to encourage that kind of personal growth for the good of mankind. Where governments have tried this we see socialism with just as much room for corruption as more capitalist systems. In a sense this makes a new world order necessary. Does that opportunity truly exist in the Middle East?







[edit on 11-2-2008 by peace82670]



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 04:05 PM
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reply to post by peace82670
 


I can endorse the theme of your post in all but one particular. I have a different POV. You are stressing “individual” whereas in almost all the world - other than Western European types - it is COMMUNITY that is the basis of society. Family, and I mean extended family, not the NUCLEAR family we have in the West. We need MORE group think and less SELF interest. IMO.

Personal: Is your birthday in August?



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 07:24 PM
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Originally posted by donwhite
I can endorse the theme of your post in all but one particular. I have a different POV. You are stressing “individual” whereas in almost all the world - other than Western European types - it is COMMUNITY that is the basis of society. Family, and I mean extended family, not the NUCLEAR family we have in the West. We need MORE group think and less SELF interest. IMO.


You're entitled to YO, but IMO you got it backwards.

The main reason there is so much peace, wealth, and freedom in Western nations and societies is due to the focus on self and nuclear family rather than tribe. It's not due to real or imagined imperialism. Switzerland, Sweden, Finland, and Japan have some of the highest standards of living in the world, and have gone for decades or even centuries without imperialism. Collectivist tribal societies are notorious for their general meanness, petty conformity, oppression of freethinkers, etc. That is the reality. Forget the romance of "neighbours helping each other".

If the Hutus and Tutsis, Serbs and Croats, and for that matter the Israelis and Palestinians were more genuinely selfish and less tribal, there would never have been so much tribal bloodshed!



posted on Feb, 13 2008 @ 09:03 AM
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reply to post by IAmTetsuo
 


You're entitled to YO, but IMO you got it backwards. The main reason there is so much peace, wealth, and freedom in Western nations and societies is due to the focus on self and nuclear family rather than tribe. It's not due to real or imagined imperialism. Switzerland, Sweden, Finland, and Japan have some of the highest standards of living in the world, and have gone for decades or even centuries without imperialism.


OK, so Switzerland, a small area-wise, small population-wise country in the Alps, stuck between France and Italy, not to mention the Germans and Austrians and Liechtenstein too, had its last wars in the 12th and 13th century. Score ONE for the Western Canada guy! Q. How many miles to the next person?

I do know once upon a time Sweden was a powerhouse in Northern Europe. And Finland, always too close to Russia, is a blank in my memory of great powers of the past. Aside: During WW2, it was popular down here to say about Finland "it was the only country to repay its WW1 debt.” I’m not sure whether that was a true statement or not. End.

Japan is the only LARGE and perhaps the most homogeneous country you have named but if you ask a Korean, a Manchurian, a Chinese or anyone living in the Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam or Burma, if Japan was not an imperial power, you’d get a very much different answer.

As a point in fact, the word IMPERIAL was part of the nomenclature for the Navy, Army and Privy Council of Japan prior to 1945. It is also part of the name of the Palace in which the Emperor still resides. If you were alluding to Japan when you said “decades” I counter that concession was needed to make it fit.


Collectivist tribal societies are notorious for their general meanness, petty conformity, oppression of freethinkers, etc. That is the reality. Forget the romance of "neighbours helping each other". If the Hutus and Tutsis, Serbs and Croats, and for that matter the Israelis and Palestinians were more genuinely selfish and less tribal, there would never have been so much tribal bloodshed!


In all three of your examples, it was IMPERIAL Europeans who drew maps in total disregard of the effects on the ground. Maps drawn for administrative convenience in London, Paris, Berlin, Rome and Madrid. The brief hiatus of internecine of the Serbs and Croats during the lifetime of Josip Borz Tito shows that peace can be achieved but at a high price of individual liberty. I am not advocating that, another Tito, but I am open to re-drawing maps. Likewise the Hutu and Tutsi combat. Not to mention the seven -Stans, and all the ME.

The Arab Israeli case is unique but is entirely the product of Western Imperialism.

Summary: I do not concede your argument.


[edit on 2/13/2008 by donwhite]



posted on Feb, 14 2008 @ 12:28 PM
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Two things -- DW you may be taking my use of "individual" too literally or maybe I'm not being completely clear and IAMT you mention peace, wealth and freedom out of individual focus -- I'm not sure that's our prize.

Let me give this a try. We each are responsible for ourselves as individuals and the group if like minded in objective can support individual responsibility while perpetuating the group and pursing the like minded objective.

All of humanity has in common this planet. We share this human condition. The United Nations and groups like Amnesty International come close to providing the necessary leadership to bring governments, nations, peoples to likeminded objectives in keeping with respect for our human condition.

Religion often can transcend geo-political definitions and provide individuals with avenues for such higher motives -- caring, compassion, generosity. But any affinity may be prey to corruption.

What authority exists that all would accept -- the laws of nature? laws of physics? What it really comes down to is: Who are we and why are we here? What is the meaning and purpose of life?

Shouldn't we live in communities that encourage individuals in finding these answers while making the most of the journey of life?


God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

--Reinhold Niebuhr

Personal response: yes to your question DW

[edit on 14-2-2008 by peace82670]



posted on Feb, 29 2008 @ 01:45 PM
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Originally posted by donwhite
reply to post by IAmTetsuo


It's not due to real or imagined imperialism. Switzerland, Sweden, Finland, and Japan have some of the highest standards of living in the world, and have gone for decades or even centuries without imperialism.


Japan is the only LARGE and perhaps the most homogeneous country you have named but if you ask a Korean, a Manchurian, a Chinese or anyone living in the Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam or Burma, if Japan was not an imperial power, you’d get a very much different answer.


That was a long time ago. Similarly, there are living Israelis who still remember dhimmitude under their Iraqi, Maghrebi, and Persian imperial lords and masters.



As a point in fact, the word IMPERIAL was part of the nomenclature for the Navy, Army and Privy Council of Japan prior to 1945. It is also part of the name of the Palace in which the Emperor still resides. If you were alluding to Japan when you said “decades” I counter that concession was needed to make it fit.


I can name further examples. South Korea, a victim of imperial Japan with little chance of being imperialist itself - another Asian dragon economy. Hong Kong, Taiwan...

If you're point is that modern prosperous peoples made it only through imperialism and not self-driven economic development, then you are sorely mistaken. Spain for most of its existence was terribly imperialist, yet one of the poorest and most backwards countries in Europe. Indeed Spain never modernized until the second half of the 20th century, well into its post-imperial state. Ditto with Portugal and to a certain extent Russia.

Besides, truly selfish people value their personal safety and therefore make poor soldiers, sailors, frontiersmen, cowboys, colonists, and other agents of imperial conquest. Sure they might want to settle "out west" but generally do so after the great land grabbing.



Collectivist tribal societies are notorious for their general meanness, petty conformity, oppression of freethinkers, etc. That is the reality. Forget the romance of "neighbours helping each other". If the Hutus and Tutsis, Serbs and Croats, and for that matter the Israelis and Palestinians were more genuinely selfish and less tribal, there would never have been so much tribal bloodshed!


In all three of your examples, it was IMPERIAL Europeans who drew maps in total disregard of the effects on the ground. Maps drawn for administrative convenience in London, Paris, Berlin, Rome and Madrid.


I'm not doubting that part.


The brief hiatus of internecine of the Serbs and Croats during the lifetime of Josip Borz Tito shows that peace can be achieved but at a high price of individual liberty. I am not advocating that, another Tito, but I am open to re-drawing maps. Likewise the Hutu and Tutsi combat. Not to mention the seven -Stans, and all the ME.


IMO, the Balkans need to be Balkanized more, to have any chance of peace; the hell with what the imperialists in Washington, London, Berlin, Moscow, and Belgrade might think! If every tribe there, no matter how humble and obscure, could have their own country and nation, it would put an end to nationalistic frustration. Eventually all those little countries would have to get along, internally and externally, in the face of an expanding (and closely integrated) European Union.



The Arab Israeli case is unique but is entirely the product of Western Imperialism.


Nope. It's more the product of two tribes being mortal enemies for thousands of years, long before there was a modern republic of Israel. The "arabs and jews living in harmony until europeans messed it up" is just another anti-Israeli myth. The "harmony" was that of dhimmitude, a form of economic slavery and second-class citizenship. Just ask (or read the writings of) Jews that were forced to live under Arab/Muslim imperialism.



posted on Feb, 29 2008 @ 02:01 PM
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I might as well also mention the book Saharasia by James DeMeo. Its subtitle is "The 4000 BCE origins of child abuse, sex-repression, warfare, and social violence in the deserts of the Old World".

This book has many clues to the real causes of the Israeli-Arab conflict and generalized state of conflict in the Middle East.



posted on Feb, 29 2008 @ 02:53 PM
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eat yer heart out
An honest dedicated study of the FACTS of Biblical history refute that -
prophetic proof that babbling disputers avoid like the plague.



Originally posted by ergoli


The miracle of Israel : jewish superiority, the chosen people, a biblical prophecy. How often have we heard and seen this racist propaganda line implemented on the hawkish major news outlets ? The true miracle of israel lies in a criminal swamp of corruption, torture, terrorism, religious fanaticism, collective punishment, and war crimes. And the USA are drawn closer and closer to their rogue role model in a last bid of dominion over world oil reserves.



english.aljazeera.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on 30-1-2008 by ergoli]


[edit on 29-2-2008 by Yacov]



posted on Feb, 29 2008 @ 03:21 PM
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posted by peace82670
Two things -- DW you may be taking my use of "individual" too literally or maybe I'm not being completely clear . . We each are responsible for ourselves as individuals and the group if like minded in objective can support individual responsibility while perpetuating the group and pursing the like minded objective.


Double speak. You place “responsible individuality” as first, then describe “the group if like minded” in objective only as supportive of the individual. In other words, you are subordinating the group to support the individual, and you are limiting even that to groups of like mind. The problem with this heavy emphasis on “individualism ” albeit you qualified it 2 times with the notion of responsibility , is that historically, individualism has not been responsible. I’m thinking of the Gilded Age in America. 1870-1890. I’m thinking of the endless and reckless exploitation of the earth in the name of individualism.

I see this concept - individual vs. community - in our current and on-going ANWR (Arctic National Wildlife Refuge) argument. The people who live in Alaska - by choice - act as if they are the OWNERS of Alaska. The ANWR region - like most all of Alaska - is the property of the United States of America. All 300 million of us. Digression. Oil is finite. I would like to save some for then the Persian Gulf and Africa run out of oil. Then we would be in a much better position to be energy independent. But the R&Fs - rich and famous - do not want to wait till later to exploit that resource. That is the kind of difference I mean when I say “individualism” vs. “community.”


Religion often can transcend geo-political definitions and provide individuals with avenues for such higher motives -- caring, compassion, generosity. But any affinity may be prey to corruption.


I don’t have much good to say about religion. I am satisfied that “higher motives, caring, compassion and generosity” antedate religion by many millennia. Our current president has done his best to instigate a WAR of religions, making all too many allusions to “radical” Islam. As if Islam was monolithic or more radical that the Christians he is urging “forward.” Peace I am for, religion I am not.



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