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The true miracle of Israel

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posted on Feb, 4 2008 @ 12:11 PM
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reply to post by DocMoreau
 


WATS to Doc. Excellent analysis as always. I would look forward to such a debate Doc'. You deal in fact... nolo conteste. Miracles have a price. Thanx.


Vic




posted on Feb, 4 2008 @ 08:40 PM
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Originally posted by DocMoreau
reply to post by US Monitor
 




Also, I personally think Hezbollah and Hamas both have just cause for their existence.
Their actions maybe too violent and brash to many who yearn for peace, but their Guerilla War is just as 'valid' as any modern civil war (past wars too), if not more so. Unfortunately, the naive decision making on their part in the past has caused unneeded death and destruction.



Their actions MAY be too violent and brash? So you think it is ok for these terrorists to assassinate anyone in the Lebanese Govt. that isn't Pro-Syria? That it is ok for these terrorists to launch thousands of rockets at CIVILIAN targets year round? Or strapping bombs to themselves and blowing themselves up in bus stations, malls, and other gathering places?

None of that is Guerilla Warfare, that is terrorism. Now if they were targeting Military targets, then I would call it warfare. But they aren't.



posted on Feb, 4 2008 @ 10:27 PM
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reply to post by US Monitor
 


You seem to be quick to jump the gun when talking about Arab nations, but have no problem defending Israel.

How many civilians has Israel killed?

They are no better than the rest of us and need to be treated as such. As equals, and not exempt from war crimes.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 02:12 AM
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reply to post by IAmTetsuo
 


Uhm, I know it's a nice little internet factoid that's handy for arguing on debate forums, but the area of Israel was "blooming" way before 1948. Now, I know the popular assumption is that everywhere in the middle east is desert, or perhaps that Arabs are too stupid to irrigate, but it's blatantly untrue.

As I pointed out earlier, all of the richest land was to go to the Jewish state in the 1946 plan. That land was a;ready full of orchards, grain fields, well-irrigated... Oh, and th Jewish state, as I mentioned, would have also gained total control over the headwaters of the Jordan River. When Israel declared itself in 1948, it naturally made claims to all these areas. Israel didn't "make the desert bloom" it made Palestinian farmland into Israeli farmland through armed invasion.

So why don't the Palestinians bust their butts to make their side of things a nice place for crops? Well, for starters, the West Bank is mostly rock. Hard to grow anything on rock. Second, well... farming apparently looks a lot like terrorism. Since every transaction has to go through Israel, don't you think he IDF would notice some Palestinian dudes ordering a lot of nitrates (fertilizer) and pvc piping (cheap irrigation)? Plus there's the problem of getting the money to make that order in the first place.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 05:09 AM
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Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by IAmTetsuo
 


Uhm, I know it's a nice little internet factoid that's handy for arguing on debate forums, but the area of Israel was "blooming" way before 1948. Now, I know the popular assumption is that everywhere in the middle east is desert, or perhaps that Arabs are too stupid to irrigate, but it's blatantly untrue.

As I pointed out earlier, all of the richest land was to go to the Jewish state in the 1946 plan. That land was a;ready full of orchards, grain fields, well-irrigated... Oh, and th Jewish state, as I mentioned, would have also gained total control over the headwaters of the Jordan River. When Israel declared itself in 1948, it naturally made claims to all these areas. Israel didn't "make the desert bloom" it made Palestinian farmland into Israeli farmland through armed invasion.


True. But the partition plan stipulating the legal boundaries for israel was given in 1947, not 1946. Also, the jews terrorized and deported palestinians and settled in all other economically interesting regions, outside their legal bounds, which already were generous. As an example, the actual gaza strip legally extends until and including Jaffa, only a couple of kilometers away from Tel-Aviv, encomprising all the arable land in between.

Israeli economy developed mainly because of this sad fact and the fact that around 80% of israeli income came from western (mainly German) subsidies.

Now if you steal all arable land and water resources and subsidize it with a couple of billions, you get a blooming desert, miracle!



[edit on 5-2-2008 by ergoli]



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by ergoli
 

"The true miracle of israel lies in a criminal swamp of corruption, torture, terrorism, religious fanaticism, collective punishment, and war crimes."

Sounds a lot like the USA to me...

Birds of a feather?



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 04:13 PM
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reply to post by dbates
 

Have to correct you here:

The Jews are NOT a race - there are Jews of all races, but NO Jewish race.

In fact, your speaking of a "Jewish Race' means that you have a significant lack of understanding of the whole subject under discussion...

Go buy some books



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 04:32 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by ergoli
 


The United States of America gives the Israeli government (not the Jews..... the Israeli Government.....) 1.8 billion in arms, military contracts, military budget, and debt reduction.

1.8 billion dollars.

Israel brings in the vast majority of its money through its own industries it developed....

By comparison.

Saudi Arabia brings in 366.2 Billion Dollars.

366.2 billion ..... with a bold B.

Israels ENTIRE GDP IS 170.3 BILLION.

A Mere 1.8 billion from US aid.

Saudi Arabia gets more then that in a day....

But not all countries are like this.. United Arab Emerites for example is the Las Vegas of the Mid East.. very modern, as is Kuwait.. Jordan also to an extent is modern, and thrives on TOURISM..

This is not a Jewish conspiracy that the Jew hate mongers think it is.. its a story that when people put their minds to it, great things happen. UAE, Kuwait, Jordan, Turkey, Egypt even.. they don't have oil (aside from Kuwait but they also have a thriving industrial sector) and turned their deserts into powerhouses of wealth (except Egypt who's over population brought them back down...) .. Even Lebanon was modern in the sense of Islamic Middle East, though radicals brought on a wrath that unjustly brought it down..

Essentially. Hate Israel all you want.

You only weaken those who are already weakened by pathetic mind set mentalities.

Those who openly hate Israel should know they are viewed no better then those who blatantly hate Muslims. Not so righteous.

[edit on 1/30/2008 by Rockpuck]


Great post - I'm with you 100% - and notice that the arab states you mention are doing well economically have no knives out for Israel - or anybody else.

In my opinion it shows very clearly that things really can be different.

We need to see more middle - eastern states doing well - prosperity is a great peace bringer.

Be Well!



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 07:07 PM
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Originally posted by biggie smalls
reply to post by US Monitor
 


You seem to be quick to jump the gun when talking about Arab nations, but have no problem defending Israel.

How many civilians has Israel killed?

They are no better than the rest of us and need to be treated as such. As equals, and not exempt from war crimes.


Tell me all about those Jewish suicide bombers......



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 07:13 PM
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reply to post by US Monitor
 


A quick google search led me to several reports.

You won't hear about it in the mainstream media, they like to paint arabs as the 'crazies' in that region.

Both sides are at fault and neither is innocent. Blood is on the hands of Palestinians and Israelis. Plain and simple.

Here is an interesting read. Myth of the Suicide Bomber

Female JEWISH suicide bomber - 1946

Seems the Arabs weren't the ones to come up with the 'suicide' bombing idea. Ain't that a b?

Samson, the Jewish suicide bomber

Yes Samson from the bible is a suicide bomber.


According to the biblical story, Samson has superhuman strength, but fails to follow God's instructions. After being captured and blinded by his enemy, the Philistines, he prays and repents to God and is able to bring down a Philistine temple, thus killing everyone inside, including himself.


He kills everyone inside, including himself. Sounds like a suicide attack to me.

American Crusaders arrest JEWISH suicide bomber

Seems there are suicide bombers on both sides, supposedly serving "GOD." I don't see much of that from either side.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 08:29 PM
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reply to post by US Monitor
 


Your position sounds quite a lot like the British in the late 1770s.
The designation of "Terrorist" is truly in the eye of the beholder.

Apparently you'd rather debate your own Strawman Arguments, while failing to provide any rebuttal to the very poignant points I provided regarding the "Miracle of Israel". While your rhetoric has certainly rallied uzi totting, zionist troops at your feet, in any actual debate you loose. 3 points for me, no rebuttal from you plus one Strawman argument. I rebut that, completely refute, and stand on my original platform. You try to rebut with another unrelated Strawman. So in closing, I ask you what do you have to offer besides Pro-Jewish fueled propaganda? Anything?

The Pro-Israel crowd seems to only offer complaints about all of the damage the Muslims are doing, but cannot look at their own atrocities with any sort of honesty. It is pompous to think that only Jews have the right to protect themselves, their families, and their property.

Now if you are just airing grievances about the crappy process for peace that is going on on both sides, I can agree with you on that. The Israelis don't really want Peace, they want Power, and they are unwilling to concede any. That is why they have built a Prison wall, with Prison towers all around the Palestinian areas. At least they don't have gas chambers and furnaces.

I am done with this topic. No need to reply to me.
DocMoreau



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 10:01 PM
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reply to post by biggie smalls
 


You are relying on blogs as news sources? See that flying away? yeah thats your credibility.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 10:29 PM
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reply to post by DocMoreau
 


"I ask you what do you have to offer besides Pro-Jewish fueled propaganda? Anything?"

With your last gasp you give yourself away.............

This thread is about Israel, but obviously when someone says the word 'Israel' you hear the word Jew!

OK, you're done with the thread - bye bye.



posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 06:17 AM
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ok,I know i`m gonna get alot of flack for this but.

Isreal.. is a fictional biblical place...
and to be jewish is a religion, not a race...
so.....

WTF?

I hate religion so bad now that it makes me ill to think about it.

everybody for the last time PLEASE WAKE UP and see the
global manipulation that has carried on for thousands of years.

I use to think that yes we must respect other peoples religions..

BULLS&%$

I now realize that religion is the most vile damn thing this earth has ever
had to endure.

it definately the main mechanism that totally distorts any real meaning of life.

anyone can come back with what ever reply they so choose.
but it will fall on deaf ears.

do not bother trying to debate with me for in my mind the matter is closed.
and I will not be answering any challenges.

islam ,chistrianity,judism,ect,ect.....can all go suck a goat.



posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 11:16 AM
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Originally posted by Albin
reply to post by DocMoreau
 


"I ask you what do you have to offer besides Pro-Jewish fueled propaganda? Anything?"

With your last gasp you give yourself away.............

This thread is about Israel, but obviously when someone says the word 'Israel' you hear the word Jew!


Really? I give myself away as what, a realist? You too are keen at the Straw Man Arguement If you want to try to accuse me of Anti Semitism, don't be coy. You will be wrong, but don't be coy. Go ahead.

Israel is a Jewish state. If it were not such, why create it in 1948? I thought the point of Israel was to provide a Jewish Homeland. Maybe I am wrong. Hmmm... Nope.

Israel was established as a homeland for the Jewish people and is often referred to as the Jewish state. The country's Law of Return grants all Jews and those of Jewish lineage the right to Israeli citizenship.
en.wikipedia.org...

So yes when I here the word 'Israel' I hear Jew, the same way I hear Muslim when I hear 'Palestine'.
Now if you think that makes me anti-semitic you need to get a reality check and find out what a semite even is.

Sheesh...
DocMoreau



posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 12:02 PM
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reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 

So why don't the Palestinians bust their butts to make their side of things a nice place for crops? Well, for starters, the West Bank is mostly rock. Hard to grow anything on rock. Second, well... farming apparently looks a lot like terrorism. Since every transaction has to go through Israel, don't you think he IDF would notice some Palestinian dudes ordering a lot of nitrates (fertilizer) . .


Ethnic cleansing.
Ever since 1967, when the Likud realized the opportunity just put into their hands after the Six Days War, the Jewish people of Israel have been steadfastly engaged in ethnic cleansing of the whole land. The Labor Party did not agree at first with that objective, but as Labor gradually lost the favor it had once enjoyed they too have become complicit. The Israelis have been endlessly encouraged by American end-time Protestants and by Republican politicians beginning with Reagan and reaching its apogee with Bush43, a sincere end-timer. Well, if he is sincere about anything.

Yesterday, I saw where the IDF had killed EIGHT (8) more people in Gaza.

Q.
Was not Annapolis nothing more than a staged photo-op by Bush43 for his presidential scrap-book?

Viva Hamas!

[edit on 2/6/2008 by donwhite]



posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 12:31 PM
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reply to post by ergoli
 



excellent post sir,

you indeed exposed the truth of Israel , it should be named Israhell or #rael



posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by INdigo Child
reply to post by ThePiemaker
 

I think you are right.People think the western way is the best way but in the end it has proven not to be. Western society has too many problems IMO, but most of us have been force fed all their stupid values about money, big tits and such. I am just waiting for the day when it will all end. As for Israel they will get theirs one day, guess even their God is ashamed of them. But if he is not, then he is one bad God.Killing children is evil anywhere, anytime. No matter how hard you try you can never justify that.


Don't confuse Western civilization with common stupidity.

Love of money, and greed, is universal human nature. Wanting to better oneself is also part of human nature. While greed is one extreme, the lack of honest greed is another one just as dangerous. Some areas of poverty, whether neighborhoods or nations, have literally lost all their ambition to the point where the people are have become zombies. I am not referring to the physiical effects of malnutrition, rather the cultural attitudes that lead to poverty in the first place.

The collective fetish for "big tits" combined also with skinny waists and hips, long blonde hair, long legs, etc. is again more stupidity. It has little to do with western civilization; the classical Greeks and Romans had their own standards of beauty. Much of modern Europe is closer to full-figured classical elegance than to the Hollywood Barbie-doll look.

To be quite honest, many critics of western civilization are hypocritical spoiled children unable to offer any intelligent alternatives. People do have the right to make choices, including ones I don't agree with; that's the view of a libertarian like myself. They also have the right to accept the consequences and learn from their mistakes. The western model of development has pulled entire nations out of feudalism, Oriental despotism, theocracy, and the like.

And yes, there are/were some good non-western societies such as the Trobriand Islands. But these societies is not scalable to billions of people living in modern cities, and are vulnerable to outside aggession.

As a final point, how come there is so much immigration to Western countries, and so little immigration to non-Western ones?



posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 01:33 PM
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reply to post by ergoli
 
I say we have no business giving our military and secrets to a country actively involved in a controversial war. However I can't relate to the blind compassion given the Palestenians thus far in this thread. Although they do have a undeniable sense they are being oppresed. The Palestenian movements in this area show excuse to be given trust.

Anyone who watches the violence and believes the Palestenians are innocent should rethink their whole thought process. It's easy to view this conflict on a short term basis, but the fact is the Jews have been run out of that country before, the agreements in the 50's were tenative to stop immediate violence. They have been constantly attacked by these groups who claim rights to the country just because their prophet walked around in that area or built a shrine there. I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert on this subject but, religious extremists seem bound and determined to exterminate Jews, whether it be Christian Nazi's, Blood crazed hyeina type muslims or whoever! They seem to believe they all have rights to this piece of land no bigger than Texas. Why are they so bound and determined to run them out of a land they have claimed since their God told them in the Old Testament it's there and no one was claiming it so take it for your holy land.

I don't understand the lack of respect by these extremists either, the Jewish took in their prophet Mohammed when he was homeless and on his trek from Saudi Arabia or Mecca to this area. He believed in their teachings except for the greed, which no one agrees with, so why all the hoopla. Most of their religion was based on the old testament.

People these days want to concentrate on their minute differences when they are more similar in religion than they think, and we should support this? The people of palestine, from an outsiders view, act like rabid dogs when you mention the name of the Jews, I cannot support their bloodlust with a pityful sympathy. Their actions would be equal to me laying claim to all of Texas because, I think my preachers a profit, my church is there, therefore it's my holy land, its all mine. I feel the same of our treatment of the Indians



posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 01:42 PM
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reply to post by donwhite
 


Well, yeah, the ethnic cleansing is the larger scope of things. I was narrowing the focus a bit, though.



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