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The true miracle of Israel

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posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 07:05 PM
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Originally posted by FredT
reply to post by loam
 

Actually you and I are in the same boat on this one. Both sides have serious ethical and moral issues.


That is most definitely true..

Both need to work out their own inner workings before even trying to work with each other.. moral corruption within their government inhibit peace.




posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 09:51 PM
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reply to post by IAmTetsuo
 



And it is no coincidence that Japan, South Korea, and Israel have all been backed by the greatest Country in the World the USA.

Hell we rebuilt Japan and South Korea. Their people did an outstanding job of taking what we helped them build and running with it. Kudos to them and Israel for reaping the benefits of what they sowed.



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 10:30 PM
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Is it a state or a religion or a culture?? Just asking seems to change alot.
Just when you think it's a state bam it changes to a religion. Just when you think it's a religion boom it's a culture!

I get so so confused



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 11:54 PM
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Originally posted by Leo Strauss
Is it a state or a religion or a culture?? Just asking seems to change alot.
Just when you think it's a state bam it changes to a religion. Just when you think it's a religion boom it's a culture!

I get so so confused


Yes I also find it quite confusing...

I'm all for national pride and the lot but knowing the boundaries are always a good idea. I believe that Israel as a country/state is a miracle only in that it's amazing that it exists at all. The fact that the UN decided to approve the British Mandate of Palestine to partition Palestine into two states in 1947 is a miracle unto itself. To further add to the miracle they did this without really bothering to check with the Palestinians if it was alright to cut their lands in half and donate half to the Jewish peoples. I find it intriguing that most things to do with Israel revolve around some conflict or another. After WW1 the League of Nations approve the British Mandate for Palestine. After WW2 the UN enforces the mandate. The Arab League rejects the UN decision, war breaks out and yet another miracle happens, Israel wins against all odds (of course those weapons dumped in their lap by those "guys" had very little to do with the victory). So the miracle continues with further expansion and external funding etc. etc....

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a "Jewish" thingy, I'm just saying that the only reason Israel exists at all is due to an incredible amount of outside help and support. I just wonder how many miracles would have happened if Israel had received no external help. I think Israel the state/country/religion/culture owes everything to those "guys" without who's help Israel wouldn't exist at all in any capacity. Let's hope the miracle machine doesn't decide to focus their interests elsewhere. It might be in order to send a thank you card once a year or so.



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 11:57 PM
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There are many various scriptures in the bible pertaining to what will happen to those who go against Israel and His people.
It also speaks of the great many who will go against God and what will happen to those who do so.



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 12:31 AM
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Originally posted by WhiteWash
There are many various scriptures in the bible pertaining to what will happen to those who go against Israel and His people.
It also speaks of the great many who will go against God and what will happen to those who do so.


I find it intriguing that you refer to Israel as a man; "His people". Just curious as to why you would do that is all?

As for Biblical reference well we all know that these are entirely dependant on individual interpretation. There is also mention of an "Israel" on the Egyptian Merneptah Stela. If the Merneptah Stela is correct, "Israel" emerged from the indigenous peoples of Canaan in the mid 12th century BC. If the later were true this would negate Biblical history and chronology prior to ca. 1150BC. Egyptian record keeping at the time was considered second to none which puts a great deal of pressure on the accuracy of Biblical records from that time period. The great thing about Egyptian records as opposed to the Biblical are the common details apparent in the Egyptian documents. Biblical records have a tendency to deviate from the details and focus more upon the doom and gloom aspects. Also lets not forget that there are so many versions of the Bible that it's difficult to isolate references properly and concisely.



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 12:41 AM
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Originally posted by Rigel
Reading about some Palestinan "genocide" is "laughable".


Agreed. It's not genocide - it's ethnic cleansing. Genocide would be attempting to wipe out every Arab - Israel just wants to get rid of the Arabs near it and take their stuff.


Without Arafat's hatred and hunger for political fame, "palestinians" (roman empire designation) would happily leave 50 km from Gaza, whether in Egypt or Jordan (which was created as a "palestinian" state a half-century ago) .


Palestine was actually created as a Palestinian state. You've heard of the UN Partition Plan? The 1948 war? That was all over the fact that there were going to be two countries where the Gaza Strip, Israel, and the West Bank now sit - an Israel, and a Palestine.

The trouble is, hte partition plan was horribly, horribly skewed. The minority population - the jews in the Palestinian mandate - would get the majority of the land. Included in this land grant would be every stretch of productive farmland, the ports on the Red Sea, and total control of the region's only sources of fresh water - the Arab majority would get whatever was left.

Naturally, this was deemed unacceptable by the majority, and regardless of what you think of Arabs, Jews, Muslims, Isrealis, or whatever... their displeasure with the "deal" is pretty darn understandable. So they refused to sign on, Israel claimed all that land anyway and then we had another war on our hands.

Unfortunately for the Arab side of things, the Israelis followed the European school of war - destroy your enemy, crush his home, eat his last slice of pizza - while the Arabs followed the Arab school of war - make a loud noise and hope it scares your enemy away.

We can see how that ended up.



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 12:43 AM
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Originally posted by Mil Spec

I find it intriguing that you refer to Israel as a man; "His people". Just curious as to why you would do that is all?


Perhaps the way I wrote it seemed that way, but what I meant by Israel and HIS people: His



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 09:07 AM
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Isn't economics at the base of this whole Israel question?

Religion is only a factor at the micro-debate level. At the governments on either side making popular news level. At the TV reporting of the latest bombing/response level. At some petty aggression between Arab/Jewish next door neighbours in New York level.

It's this attempted micro-crisis management stuff, a radical disconnect between the arising of the crisis and any understanding in the minds of ordinary people of WHY it arose.

Instead of this:



One can truthfully blame the mainstream media for never digging out these figures for themselves, because none ever have. They were compiled by the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs. But the mainstream media certainly are not alone. Although Congress authorizes America's foreign aid total, the fact that more than a third of it goes to a country smaller in both area and population than Hong Kong probably never has been mentioned on the floor of the Senate or House. Yet it's been going on for more than a generation.

www.washington-report.org...



We get this:



Israeli bomb kills UN observers

Four United Nations observers have been killed in an Israeli air strike on an observation post in south Lebanon.

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan said he was "shocked" at the "apparently deliberate targeting" of the post. Israel has expressed "deep regret".

Israel earlier said it would control an area in southern Lebanon until international forces deployed.


The first is to my thinking the more driving force type information, but it isn't news. Something didn't happen? Something hasn't happened for a generation ? That's not news.

Why I stopped watching or reading the news. I wanted to be back in control of what I thought about, minute to minute, hour to hour, day to day.

About the OP, ergoli said


The miracle of Israel : jewish superiority, the chosen people, a biblical prophecy. How often have we heard and seen this racist propaganda line implemented on the hawkish major news outlets ? The true miracle of israel lies in a criminal swamp of corruption, torture, terrorism, religious fanaticism, collective punishment, and war crimes. And the USA are drawn closer and closer to their rogue role model in a last bid of dominion over world oil reserves.


Wouldn't anyone be against those things you list?

I ignore the religious aspect.

If ”conflict in the Middle East” was a thread being dialogued in say Jung's conception of the collective mind, then - in my view - religion would be off topic.



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 09:26 AM
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reply to post by biggie smalls
 


An intersting string here -- recall in the Bible that Israel is the name given to the chosen people of God -- but they're not defined as Jewish or tied to a specific land. In my heart I worry that the world in general is far too literal a place and the danger of this world-view is evident especially in the creation of Israel. I don't suggest that I have the answers.

I also want to introduce here the idea of forgiveness. It seems to me that forgiveness -- the lack of it -- is at the basis of the creation of the state of Israel...setting themselves apart rather than together with humanity and therefore God --

My ideas are not fully formed -- would love to hear what others have to add.



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 09:29 AM
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reply to post by Mil Spec
 


Isnt the miracle machine set on Iraq? How bout Afghanistan? And maybe Pakistan in the near future.



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by Terran Blue

Originally posted by IAmTetsuo
the Middle East has only Israel, target of islamocommunist envy and hatred.


Ahhhh... so its IslamoCOMMUNISM now eh? New buzzphrase from the Republican Book of Propaganda Spiels?


Where were you in the 1970s? That was the time when communist and islamic powers were ganging up on Israel. That was the time when the United Nations wasted so much time with "Zionism is racism" and did not a blessed thing about Pol Pot or Idi Amin. Hell, the UN was more concerned with supposed racism in Israel than real racism in South Africa!

If you prefer, how about an alternative phrase, "the unholy alliance of red and black."



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by US Monitor
reply to post by IAmTetsuo
 


And it is no coincidence that Japan, South Korea, and Israel have all been backed by the greatest Country in the World the USA.


The USA has backed many countries and regimes that failed, too.

And Japan in the 1880-1945 period did it alone, with no help. The Western powers at the time foolishly feared Japan, and wanted to see it fail. That was what led to Japanese fascistoid mperialism. After 1945 was a different story. The US and Britain saw the value of strong, healthy, democratic allies and thus remolded Japan, Germany, and Italy that way.



Hell we rebuilt Japan and South Korea. Their people did an outstanding job of taking what we helped them build and running with it. Kudos to them and Israel for reaping the benefits of what they sowed.


Good point. They benefited both from foreign aid and their own industriousness.



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 12:25 PM
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After the Isrealis were done roaming around in the wilderness for fourty years, recieving intense religious conditioning, they were led to the 'promised land' by 'him' and what were they told to do.
Kill every man, woman and child they found.
Now I'm no biblical scholar but that, to me, sounds like this so called god told his 'chosen people' to commit genocide.
You can keep that filthy way of thinking to yourselves.



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 12:35 PM
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reply to post by undermind
 


israeli bomb kills un observers in south lebanon------those "un"observers were radioing the movements of israeli infantry to hezbolla snipers-----which changed their status from observers to enemy combatants.



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 01:15 PM
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Ahhh The truth hurts a little doesn't it? Well here is another reason to add me to your respected foes list.
www.liveleak.com...



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 01:15 PM
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The real problem in Israel is that the muslims religion cannot tolerate another religion running a country that was once owned by muslims.

Peace will never be possible. But I would point out that if there were rockets falling on southern California from revolutionaries in Mexico we would have sent in the army to clean them out the next day.

I'm actually shocked that the Jews actually have so much restraint. They should have cleaned out Gaza years ago.



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 01:20 PM
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reply to post by ntech
 


Perhaps in that case, the US should clean out mexico, or cuba, or the UK could nuke southern ireland?

Sorry, but your answer makes no sense to me and seems to be a knee jerk reaction based on an anti-muslim bias.



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 01:30 PM
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The Palestinians are commiting acts of war. And war crimes as well. Their behavior is completely unacceptable in the modern world.

Israel has every right to self defense.



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 01:35 PM
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Originally posted by ntech
The Palestinians are commiting acts of war. And war crimes as well. Their behavior is completely unacceptable in the modern world.

Israel has every right to self defense.


And so do the palestinians - the problem is that palestine doesn't have the US standing behind them waving a big stick, so israel takes the role of schoolyard bully because their friend is bigger.

If it were the other way round, Israel would back off pretty quick.

I have some sympathy with the israeli position, but I cannot condone some of their behaviour.







 
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