whoh hold on a minute,arnt we still in the "surge" phase?,so what our dear friend is saying is that there isnt going to be a reduction in the surge?....

...that would mean,as i always suspected, it never was a surge,it was a planned,disguised permenant increase in troops and once again the american public has been lied to.

Thats what it's looking like . I don't think they care if they ever come home. We should draft the bush kids. Send them to die .

Originally posted by oLDWoRLDDiSoRDeR
We should draft the bush kids. Send them to die .

And just what would that accomplish? Nothing.

Originally posted by oLDWoRLDDiSoRDeR

At White House, a Second Look at Iraq Troop Cuts

Mr. Bush has made no decisions on troop reductions to follow those he announced last September. But White House officials said Mr. Bush had been taking the opportunity, as he did in Monday’s State of the Union address, to prepare Americans for the possibility that, when he leaves office a year from now, the military presence in Iraq will be just as large as it was a year ago, or even slightly larger.

Huh.

And right there - in the State of the Union that President Bush delivered and that these guys reference - the President says "...American troops are shifting from leading operations, to partnering with Iraqi forces, and, eventually, to a protective overwatch mission. As part of this transition, one Army brigade combat team and one Marine Expeditionary Unit have already come home and will not be replaced. In the coming months, four additional brigades and two Marine battalions will follow suit. Taken together, this means more than 20,000 of our troops are coming home..."

So - by bringing home troops - we're going ot have a presence just as large as a year ago? How very odd. The NY Times (home of journalists like Judith Miller - who made up their stories for the paper) must be using that 'new math.'

Especially since troop levels are epected to be 138,000 in a few months, and 100,000 by the end of the year ... significantly lower than the 170,000 peak from October last year.

It's the weirdest thing; troop levels for the last quarter (October: 170,000, November, 160,000, December, 156,000) continue to decline.

Yeah ...

Your pal,
Meat.

I don't think they'll ever come home. We have permanent stations in Iraq now... and there will always be soldiers to fill the ranks.

I think America has lost it's democratic ability to control itself. We have no say what our military does anymore. Although the majority of Americans want to be out of Iraq, there are still a stubborn and ignorant minority refusing to acknowledge the democratic opinion. Democrats AND Republicans have ignored the will to end the war and have tricked the ordinary laymen (political sheep) that there is no way out of Iraq and we just need to stick around indefinitely.

As long as there are political talking heads running about echoing the White houses empty rhetoric for war... the charade of this 'republic' will continue.

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
I think America has lost it's democratic ability to control itself. We have no say what our military does anymore.

Quite true, and unfortunately this goes much further!

In the instance of Iraq, there was an exclusive club among the Bush's inner circle, who designed this war because they liked to think they are talented geopolitical masters, whereas in fact they turned out a bunch of amateurs. It vexes me to no end that none of these people are being held accountable for what they did to our country as well as Iraq.

But there is more: the open borders policy which apparently continues is opposed by Americans, just look at any poll. However, little to nothing is being done to quell illegal immigration. Speak of national security when your borders have more holes than a loaf of Swiss cheese in a rat cage!

And yet most people don't get excited or enraged when confronting these facts. We are slipping into the Age of Decadent Barbarsim.

Originally posted by biggie smalls
It actually would do a whole lot. Bushie would think twice before sending other sons and daughters off to war.

Why not draft the Cheney's and all of Bush's cronies kids as well and while we're at it why don't we send the politicians with them?

They seem pretty willing to send other people's children to war, but don't like to see their own suffer.

So, based on that line of thinking, Clinton's daughter Chelsea should have been in the military during Operation Allied Force, when the US was bombing Yugoslavia? Or maybe Operation Desert Fox, when we bombed Iraq to try to institute a "regime change?"

Originally posted by jerico65
So, based on that line of thinking, Clinton's daughter Chelsea should have been in the military during Operation Allied Force, when the US was bombing Yugoslavia? Or maybe Operation Desert Fox, when we bombed Iraq to try to institute a "regime change?"

Absolutely! There have been analyses (on www.stratfor.com in particular, if memory serves me right) about the effect of the exitense of a warrior class in the United States, on the society at large. We are not very adverse to waging wars in part due to the fact that a limited group of people will absorb the grief and physical damage. If there were a draft, the war in Iraq would have never happened.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
I think America has lost it's democratic ability to control itself. We have no say what our military does anymore.

Quite true, and unfortunately this goes much further!

Beg to differ.

America is a republic, not a democracy.

Therefore, it can't go 'much further.'

Your pal,
Meat.

Originally posted by biggie smalls
Why not draft the Cheney's and all of Bush's cronies kids as well and while we're at it why don't we send the politicians with them?

Because the United States currently doesn't have a draft. We have the strongest, bravest, best all-volunteer military in the world.

And I'd much rather have someone protecting us who wants to serve than have someone who doesn't.

The 'surge' was never meant as a temporary fix as a previous poster mentioned; the intention was and still is to keep our soldiers there as long as possible.

Uh...yeah, it actually was. And it worked. And it's over. And more and more of our soldiers are coming home every month. The numbers don't lie.

Bushie is even trying to lock the next President into keeping our soldiers in Iraq till 2012 through a legally binding contract.

Reeeeeeally. A "legally binding contract, eh?

That's pretty damned funny!

Your pal,
Meat.

Originally posted by biggie smalls

Originally posted by mmmeat
Because the United States currently doesn't have a draft. We have the strongest, bravest, best all-volunteer military in the world.

That's relative.

Not at all. It's fact.

Uh...yeah, it actually was. And it worked. And it's over. And more and more of our soldiers are coming home every month. The numbers don't lie.

So if the surge is working so well why are we there still? Bush said 'Mission Accomplished' several years ago, yet our soldiers aren't home yet.

Do you see an inherent flaw in that statement?

Nope. No inherent flaw at all.

The surge did work, which has allowed for many of our troops to stand down and come home or move on to other projects.

And "Mission Accomplished" was absolutely true; Saddam was deposed. That was the initial mission.

Reeeeeeally. A "legally binding contract, eh?

That's pretty damned funny!

Its not funny actually because its true...At least he is trying to. That means if and when Hillary (or a democrat) is elected [they] can save face and say, "well you know the law states that we must stay in Iraq for X amount of years."

Actually, it IS funny. Damned funny! Laugh out loud, roll on the floor, point and laaaaaugh and laaaaaugh and laaaaaaugh funny.

Countries don't make 'legally binding contracts' with other countries.

Okay, maybe it's just me...but I do find it funny when I read posts that say things that are just patently not true as if it's an indisputable fact. It shows a certain amount of naivete and kind of negates the whole argument in my mind.

Perhaps you're unfamiliar with history. I don't mean that to be insulting, but you need to do some research as to what happened AFTER World War II. Even better: research how many Americans were killed in Italy AFTER it surrendered and how many Americans were killed in Italy AFTER Germany surrendered. At the end of WWII we didn't just pack up and come home, we had an occupation force that lasted for years and suffered great losses. I'm singling out Italy because it wasn't as as volatile as Germany, and is significantly less fractious than Iraq.

Your pal,
Meat.

[edit on 30-1-2008 by mmmeat]

Originally posted by jerico65
People don't remember that. They think that after WW2, all troops went home the next day.

There's a reason they were called the Greatest Generation.

We - the United States - lost more American soldiers in 'peacetime' post-WWII Italy than ALL casualties on ALL sides in Iraq (using the 'real' numbers rather than the imaginary numbers recently posted on ATS).

The surge worked. The soldiers are coming home. We'll only have 100,000 in Iraq by the end of the year; 70,000 less than our all-time high.

THAT'S the 'second look at Iraq troop cuts.'

Your pal,
Meat.