Ahmadinejad tells West: Accept Israel imminent collapse

reply to post by JSR


Are you looking for clever reinterpretations and spin? Because what he's saying is pretty plain to anyone who's paying attention.

All opinionated rhetoric aside, Israel has some serious issues ahead of it, as a nation. For beginners, the sole idea behind Israel is that it is "The Jewish state." It's an exclusivist ethnic nationalist state, one of very few left in the world, and the only one considered a first-world nation. Unlike every other nation on earth, even the ones that aren't officially recognized, Israel has no constitution, and it has no set borders. It is also one of the very few nations that have openly defied international law and been rewarded for doing so, with their military conquest of Palestinian land.

Israel, right now, has two options. Either it can undergo heavy reform to become an inclusive democracy that adheres to the rule of law, abandoning its Zionist foundations in exchange for something more modern and conductive to peace... OR, it can be subsumed by an ever-increasing Arabic majority and once again be "Palestine" in a few decades by simple weight of population alone, with a period of Apartheid rule in between.

Eitehr way, "Israel" as we know it, is going to cease to exist within our lifetimes, I feel. It's going to go the way of Rhodesia and the Yucatan Republic.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

i wasnt looking for anything but the opinions of the members with respect to the iranian pres. comments.

which you gave.
thank you.

Originally posted by xmotex
The awful truth of it is that anti-semitic politicians in the West supported the creation of Israel, not out of love for the Jews, but because they saw a way to rid themselves of an unpopular religious minority, by shipping them off to a faraway desert.

I honestly wonder if they had the idea that once the Jews were all in one place, surrounded by hostile populations, it'd be easier to kill them off

I think you are being a bit melodramatic here.

That scenario is highly doubtful, considering the staggering amount of aide given to Israel by the US. It also would be ridiculous to heavily fund and support a place you want destroyed. Aren't we giving Israel a 30 billion dollar military package soon?

U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact Summary
Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans - $74,157,600,000

Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S. Aid to Israel

Grand Total - $84,854,827,200
Interest Costs Borne by U.S. - $49,936,680,000
Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers - $134,791,507,200
Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli - $23,240
The Washigton Report

We've given them around 91+ Billion according to some conservative estimates.

Honestly?

I wish someone hated me enough to pay me like that!
Put me on the friggin' moon for all I care. Just so long as I can place orders and have them delivered.

Oh and some of those "hostilities" amongst those populations came about when they were forcefully evicted from their homes...and worse. "Hi neighbor, I'm moving in to this place and you're out on your butt. I wouldn't put up a fight if I were you. Good luck!"

Not really the BEST way to make friends.

EDIT: formatting and some figures in quote. See link for full list.

Thanks,

- Lee

reply to post by lee anoma


I would agree with the original poster there, at least to a degree. Rather than accept their own Jewish citizens, nations in the west really pandered hard to get them to move out to Israel. All sorts of incentives, funding, promises. Anything to get the Jews out, and into a European colony-state.

Said colony state has been the excuse for western imperialism and aggression in the middle east ever sense. The gross amounts of funding is a rather new development, tied up strongly with the last several decades of evangelical Christians running the show. For their doomsday genocide by Sword-Tongue the Vengeful, there NEEDS to be a nation called Israel somewhere in the general location, after all.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Bush seems to be going against what Biblical prophecy calls for and also seems to be drifting towards the ecumenical movement. I think he is also driven more by power for the U.S. and personal recognition than he is for God.

And you believe that people can choose which role to play in God's play? Do you think these guys read book of apocalypse and think how they could fit the role? Do you think that is man's responsibility to try to get all the prophecies fulfilled?

I see the you have rails which you can keep going. Future is determined for you, and you are going to believe any trickster that can play according the notes. Remember that bible also said that there will be many imposters, and you fit description of false prophet.

Originally posted by Geemor
And you believe that people can choose which role to play in God's play?

No I do not. Please do not put words in my mouth. We are told the land of Israel would be divided after it's last days regathering and woe to the ones who try to do it. With Bush's new peace plan, he is attempting to divide the land. Something we are warned against doing. The prophecies also mention the wall around Israel coming down and Bush's treaty includes Israel taking down its protective fences. Bush also received a scroll from a group of Orthodox Rabbis which referred to him as "The Chief Prince of Meshech and Tubal." That is a huge slap in the face if you understand what it means. He is engaging in replacement theology (wholly nonbiblical) and doing the very thing we were warned not to do.

Do you think that is man's responsibility to try to get all the prophecies fulfilled?

If he is aware of what the prophecies pertain (and I'm sure he has some inkling of the importance of what he is doing), he is doing this country an immense disservice if he truly understands and believes what will happen to the country that tries to divide Israel's land. Either he doesn't know what he is doing and is unintentionally fulfilling prophecy or he knows exactly what he is doing and is aware of the dire consequences it will bring which means He is going against the very warning God issued. Either way he is losing.

Remember that bible also said that there will be many imposters, and you fit description of false prophet.

I am going exactly by what the Bible is saying. A "false prophet" would be in opposition to what the Bible says would happen. Huge difference between being a watchman and teacher of false doctrine. Not sure what your religious views are (nor is it really any of my business) but be careful of who you call a false prophet especially when they are going by exactly what the Bible says to the very letter without any distortion. God is not done with Israel. Be very wary of anyone who claims otherwise. He says His covenant would endure with them forever and they will never be dispersed again after the second regathering of 1948 (prophesied to the very year). Be very careful with what you throw around.

[edit on 1/31/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by AshleyD
I am going exactly by what the Bible is saying.

Dangerous to assume there can only be one interpretation of the text. Could you point out which verse says woe to those who divide the land of Israel? I believe that in such a verse one could easily interpret 'Israel' as 'God's People' or Christianity (just like every Christian I've ever known has done regarding prophecies about Israel) rather than the physical land of the contemporary state of Israel.

Originally posted by AshleyD

I am going exactly by what the Bible is saying. A "false prophet" would be in opposition to what the Bible says would happen.

False prophets or impostorers are not stupid, they surely are familiar with bible. No, instead they will make false interpretations and declare the coming of the messiah and God's kingdom and apocalypse. Or they will delibarately delude you with their knowledge of the word. If one isn't familiar with bible but yet considers herself a believer, she is easily betrayed by false prophet to believe in wrong teachings that necessarily aren't from bible, or they are but misinterpret.

Originally posted by TheStev

Dangerous to assume there can only be one interpretation of the text. Could you point out which verse says woe to those who divide the land of Israel? I believe that in such a verse one could easily interpret 'Israel' as 'God's People' or Christianity (just like every Christian I've ever known has done regarding prophecies about Israel) rather than the physical land of the contemporary state of Israel.

What you are teaching is called "replacement theology." Basically that God gave up His hope with Israel after the Jews rejected Jesus. But this is wholly unscriptural. We are told that His covenant with Israel will endure forever in Psalms. In Ezekiel, Amos, Hosea, Daniel, and Zechariah we are told the Jews will suffer a dispora until the end times but will be regathered. Paul tells Christians not to be ignorant and conceited but that God is only focusing on the Christian church for a time until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. Read the NT carefully. We (Christians) are only the focus for a little while in what is known as the "church age" and "time of the Gentiles." Saying God has forsaken Israel is calling God a liar and covenant breaker because He promised to never turn His back on Israel permanently even though he would occasionally subject them to temporary judgment.

Over thirty years ago Hal Lindsey made several Biblical based predictions concerning Russia being a super power, a certain coalition of Muslim nations being joined with Russia, China being important, Iran being the center of attention, etc. In the 80's preterists asked him to recant after everything seemingly fell apart. But now China is blossoming, Russia is regaining its former glory slowly thanks to Putin, the exact coalition of countries mentioned by name in the Bible and explained by Hal are now in formation and Russia is one of their allies, Iran is the center of conflict with its nuclear program, Egypt and Jordan signed peace treaties with Israel as predicted, etc.

Here are some articles for you to read: HERE and HERE. And my favorite with a prophetic parable from Jesus Himself: HERE.

Originally posted by Geemor
False prophets or impostorers are not stupid, they surely are familiar with bible. No, instead they will make false interpretations and declare the coming of the messiah and God's kingdom and apocalypse. Or they will delibarately delude you with their knowledge of the word. If one isn't familiar with bible but yet considers herself a believer, she is easily betrayed by false prophet to believe in wrong teachings that necessarily aren't from bible, or they are but misinterpret.

Hon. I've seen people say Jesus is going to rapture Christians in a UFO. That Satan and Jesus serve as dual saviors. That all roads lead to God. That we are already in the tribulation. That some individual is a reincarnated Biblical prophet, etc. Those are false teachings because nothing they claim is biblical and I correct them all.

You keep throwing around the claim "false prophet" but you have yet to provide any evidence behind your assertion. You have not told me where I am wrong but that I am wrong. You have not provided any evidence or a reason to back up your talk. Nor will you be able to provide said evidence because everything I am stating is in the Bible, in black and white, and is currently being affirmed by a casual viewing of the nightly news or morning paper.

So, don't write checks you can't cash or hash out accusations you can't back up. And you can't because the only source I go by is the Bible. When I'm not sure of something, I let people know it is only my personal opinion or interpretation but that we will have to wait and see to know for sure. I think you better rethink your accusation right quick or at least show up with some evidence why your opinion is correct.

[edit on 1/30/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by AshleyD
You might want to check out this thread: Click Here. If you do not have the interest in reading the whole thing (we got a little off topic at times, then here are some comments from both Christians and Muslims concerning the Mahdi: HERE, HERE, HERE (Muslim), HERE (My reply), HERE (Muslim), HERE (My reply), and many more.

Thanks. I read it all and I also left a reply there as to not derail this thread any more than I already have.

Look up some searches concerning Mahdi prophecies to see what is believed concerning him.

You're not understanding me...I have done a LOT of research on this...my opinions and findings are not from the same perspective as yours but that does not mean that I haven't done my homework. I prefer dispassionate and objective review, personally speaking. And to learn about Islam...I prefer to hear it from those who practice that.

And WHAT Islam says is NOT what Christianity says...a phenomenon of which your thread covers at length. Which I've already said in this thread.

Originally posted by IvanZana
Here is the Ahmedinejad speech at the University.
If bush spoke like this you would trumpet him as a prophet.
[edit on 30-1-2008 by IvanZana]

Do you think he speaks the same way in his own language to the masses in his country holding "Death to America" signs?

Is it so hard to understand that this guy plays to whatever audience he is in front of? He can spout all the anti- Israel/American rants he wants in his own country and then play it off as misunderstood or even a conspiracy of the west in changing the meaning on purpose. No one said he is not an intelligent guy that not only gets the right message he wants to say to his own people but then to change it up for the rest of the world.

Originally posted by ThePiemaker
Israel did not need to be built. It was completely unnecessary for Jews to have their own state. You're talking about arabs obsessing over that land but it's also the Jews who are obsessing over it. Why did the nation need to be built on that small bit of land? If you accept jewish reasons to build there as valid then I don't see how you can dismiss any muslims desire to defend and to keep that same "holy land".

England split up the land to match the population. Israel is smaller than Jordan because the Jewish population was lower. Jordan is the Palestine state and Israel is the Jewish state. This is not hard to understand.

[edit on 30-1-2008 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by lee anoma

 

I would agree with the original poster there, at least to a degree. Rather than accept their own Jewish citizens, nations in the west really pandered hard to get them to move out to Israel. All sorts of incentives, funding, promises. Anything to get the Jews out, and into a European colony-state.

That may have been true, but is hardly relevant now. Most of the Jews in western Europe and the Americas are happy enough where they are, and there is no great movement to push them to Israel.

As for the "European colony-state", did you know that half its Jewish population is descended from Middle Eastern Jews? And these ones needed little prompting to move to Israel, and have been the most militant nationalists. Hardly the behaviour one would expect from a population living in harmony with the Arabs for centuries!

(Ironic aside: More Russian Jews emigrated to Germany than Israel in the last ten years. Germany once again has a thriving Jewish population.)

Said colony state has been the excuse for western imperialism and aggression in the middle east ever sense. The gross amounts of funding is a rather new development, tied up strongly with the last several decades of evangelical Christians running the show. For their doomsday genocide by Sword-Tongue the Vengeful, there NEEDS to be a nation called Israel somewhere in the general location, after all.

That's one of the stumbling blocks for mideastern peace. Until the evangelical Christians stop using Israel as their puppet, and evangelical Muslims stop using the Arab countries as their puppets....

reply to post by IvanZana



Its a shame that you don't know the history of the region or are familar with the Balfour Declaration or you wouldn't make such an ignorant statement.

The truth is, Palestine would have become a nation of its own for the first time in the history of Earth if Jordan and Egypt hadn't screwed them over.

Ahanutjob runs his mouth quite a bit, but he knows that he can't back any of it up. And the only way he can do anything is to pay arabs to do the dirty work for him that he knows his own people aren't capable of doing.

Israel will last for quite a long time to come.

reply to post by Now_Then


He was not speaking in arabic because he is not an Arab...he is a Persian speaking to Persians(Iranians) in Busher he was speaking Farsi

reply to post by Now_Then


He was not speaking in arabic because he is not an Arab...he is a Persian speaking to Persians(Iranians) in Busher he was speaking Farsi

Most of the below is from another Post I made but the history is the same

In 1916 Britain, France and Russia started dividing the Ottoman Empire among themselves (After World War I) this was called the "Sykes-Picot Agreement" and without any type of knowledge of the peoples, of the region, or their relationships to one another, or even caring started deciding what and how they were going to use the land and for what purpose

In 1917 Arthur J Balfour came up with the idea of a "National Home" for the Jewish people in what was considered Palestinian Territory based on the UK's Partitioning after the World War I by the way Arthur J Balfour was the British Foreigh Secretary and the decision was known as the Balfour Decleration"

From 1936-to about 1939 the Arabs of Palestine revolted the Bristish Army quelled the revolt

In 1947 and with the Balfour Declaration being decided on for way too long The UN decided to Partition the Palestine Territory into two seperate states one for the Palestinians and the other for the Jewish People

In 1948 the British Withdrew from Palestine without implementing the UN Partition and left it to war. Jordan and Egypt occupied the Palastinian Territory (Jordan-the west bank and Egypt the gaza strip) Israel won effectively taking the territory. A territory which was used to launch an attack on their homeland.

Most of the below is from another Post I made but the history is the same

In 1916 Britain, France and Russia started dividing the Ottoman Empire among themselves (After World War I) this was called the "Sykes-Picot Agreement" and without any type of knowledge of the peoples, of the region, or their relationships to one another, or even caring started deciding what and how they were going to use the land and for what purpose

In 1917 Arthur J Balfour came up with the idea of a "National Home" for the Jewish people in what was considered Palestinian Territory based on the UK's Partitioning after the World War I by the way Arthur J Balfour was the British Foreigh Secretary and the decision was known as the Balfour Decleration"

From 1936-to about 1939 the Arabs of Palestine revolted the Bristish Army quelled the revolt

In 1947 and with the Balfour Declaration being decided on for way too long The UN decided to Partition the Palestine Territory into two seperate states one for the Palestinians and the other for the Jewish People

In 1948 the British Withdrew from Palestine without implementing the UN Partition and left it to war. Jordan and Egypt occupied the Palastinian Territory (Jordan-the west bank and Egypt the gaza strip) Israel won effectively taking the territory. A territory which was used to launch an attack on their homeland.