Originally posted by Retseh

Errr something's wrong here. If I understand correctly, you are from Denmark, that would be the same Denmark that, with a gun ownership ratio of more than 15,000 firearms per 100,000 people, has one of the HIGHEST firearms ownership rates in Europe.

So this crime free paradise you describe either exists in spite of record levels of gun ownership, or because of it.

Sort of makes your whole "guns are evil" thing look a little silly n'est ce pas?

I have no idea where you got thoose numbers from, but we do have alot of firearms here on the count of hunters. Denmark is mostly forests and fields, so naturally we have many hunters.

You need to obtain, and maintain, a hunterslicense to hunt. You must also be approved by the locale law inforcement, and you must be registered and have your shotgun registered. You cannot sell your weapon without getting it re-registered either.
And you need special license if you want to hunt with riffle or other weapons aswell.
license for handguns are almost impossible to get, and can only be used for "sport shooting" in special clubs. You cannot own a handgun or have a handgun in your house.
Certain antique guns can be optained thrue a "collectors license", but they must not be able to fire ammunition. (welded trigger/barrel)

However... hunters in this country safekeep their guns very strict according to law. This means a "safetycloset" aproved by either SKAFOR or EN1143-1. is needed by law.
And there are almost zero criminal usage with hunting equipment. And since the hunters weapons are always stored safely, there are no "defense killing" by them either.

The dangers i speak of is the handguns and other lethal non-hunting weapons, witch for obvious reasons are prefered by criminals and other non-normal humans, for whatever reason. It sure as hell aint for hunting animals!

And don't say there is no difference, Hunters are in my opinion and experience, very peacefull people whom love nature and animals. In my country they hunt for food, not for sport. If you want sport, you can join a speciel club for that, as mentioned.

Please dont misunderstand me, and say my country is a pure "paradise"... It is not... we also have criminal people and ofcourse there are incidents with guns here too... But I have said it before... it is all in the mentality and trust among people!

And you cannot escape the fact: lesser guns = lesser killing with guns.

Take a burglar... does he want to kill you when he breaks into your house?... no... he wants something of value to sell or whatever.

1. If the burglar knows that every household most likely have a gun in their beddrawer, he ofcourse needs to have a gun to defend himself, should he be caught. And he most likely will fire first if he gets the chance.

2. If the burglar knows that there are no guns in any households, and he knows all the hunters have theirs locked away, he doesnt need a gun to rob you, and he will most likely just flee or get physical, should he get caught.

Its not like every burglar is a mindless triggerhappy fool you know? They adapt just aswell as normal people. Atleast in my country that is the general rule. We resort more to family dogs, survailence and alarms for our defence, combined with good safety buildt houses.

Most household robberies in this country, are made while people arent even home.

So yes...If thats the Denmark you're talking about, that is where I live.

Fear, anger, hatred, jealousy, greed, revenge. Guns allow these feelings to be dealt with through very deadly means. more deadly than any other weapon a man has access to. long range killings, drive-by killings, you can't do these with knives. You cannot defend yourself from discharged bullets, You can only shoot first or retaliate. I'd prefer that guns were strictly regulated. I'd also prefer that people's mentalities change.

Originally posted by Bluess
Ok, I stand corrected...So why do you own a gun again?

Because I have a right to my life, rights are derived from property and I own my body therefor I have a right to protect it, Not only that but I shoot for sport, and collect.

I and I alone decide what I Do, Own, Say, and Believe, No Man, Majority, or Government will tread on my life or my rights.

As much as you personally hate guns the facts remain

1.You're not American and have no say in this.
2.Even if you were who are you to tell me what I can own?

I dont fear my neighbor... I trust him... and he, just like me, would never own a gun. If he told me one day, that he would want to buy a gun, to protect himself, I would tell him that our friendship would end, and that I would report him to the police should he decide to purchase a gun. It is illigal to own a gun here remember?

So nice of you to suddenly turn on your neighbor because he *gasp* wanted to own property...

Ill make sure never to move to Denmark, I'm sure I could live without my guns for a little while at least but I certainly couldn't live in a country with a Judas running around left and right...

I trust my society and the ones close to me, thats why we don't need guns. In our country we are raised to see the good in people and respect eachother.

If you trust them so much and they are such great people then introducing a weapon into the picture should be pretty safe..

unless of course what you say is BS...

We are raised to understand that guns are a lethal weapon designed to kill. Guns are not regarded as cool, in this country.

Thats nice.

That gun in the hand of my neighbor, would be the same gun in the hands of a criminal, if it was stolen, or if my neighbor suddently decided to become criminal.

Why would your trusting neighbor or anyone in your great peaceful land turn into a criminal?

Thats why I like that the guns are not here.
Criminals cant steal them everywhere, toxicated normal people can use them in fury, and kids can't accidently fire them or use them in school... as we have seen over and over again in other countries.

Why is your great trusting peaceful land producing criminals?

You might want to look into that...

No ofcourse not, what kinda rubbish is that?..

Originally posted by BluessThat gun in the hand of my neighbor, would be the same gun in the hands of a criminal, if it was stolen, or if my neighbor suddently decided to become criminal.

Your words not mine.

The gun might get stolen by a criminal and used with deadly outcome... His son, or someone else, might accidently get a hold on it, and use it for whatever reason...

Criminals don't exist in a land of peaceful loving trusting people. so you have nothing to worry about.

Who knows what a deadly weapon in the wrong hands might cause of damage? The real question is, do I trust the gun to never get into other peoples hands? answer = no.

Why not your country is so great and peaceful...

Your totally making your own fairytales of perception, if you think this is the society I live in...LMAO Noone would magically snap, if they got a gun in their hands, what kind of statement is that?

Originally posted by BluessThat gun in the hand of my neighbor, would be the same gun in the hands of a criminal, if it was stolen, or if my neighbor suddently decided to become criminal.

I like the freedom there is in our country, we can interact peacefully with eachother knowing that normal people don't carry lethal weapons.
We don't close ourselves up in "safe bubbles" at all.

What difference does it make if normal peaceful people have weapons, they are peaceful right?

This country is one of the few freedom loving countries, where moms can even leave their babies outside a store in their babywagons, while the mom is shopping... Can you do that in your country?

There are many parts of this country where this is "possible", of course its an extremely idiotic and irresponsible thing to do considering heat stroke, choking, or general non intentional accidents that could happen without the parents supervision, but I mean if this is the type of thing that is looked highly upon umm, I'll make sure to avoid Denmark..

With that said, just as there are safe places here thee are also dangerous places here, just like in Denmark...

There is no fear here because there is nothing to fear.

Yeah nothing to fear in your bubble with foam ball bats and padded walls...

If all people had guns then there would be something to fear!

Really? There are towns in this Country where its common place to see people walking around with a piece, I've been to several, I feel quite at home actually, its nice to see other free men.
Never once experienced this fear you speak of... In fact I feel safer in a room full of guys with guns then I do in a room full of people who don't
Those of us who wear our freedom on our sleeves ie; our guns, are open about our intentions and actually the safest people to be around, we know the consequences of our actions, we know the laws, and we know to avoid fights. In fact its quite common for a citizen carrying, to walk away from a fight he could knowingly win, simply because hes carrying a gun on him and knows where that fight could lead.

Who knows what kinda loonies would own a gun, if they could get it as easy as candy and it even was legal?

Can you direct me to such a place, I'm interested in diversifying my collection easy and cheaply, filling out forms and having to wait to be cleared is time consuming, your help would be appreciated.

Still... would you feel safe today if I took away your guns?

I felt safe for 18 years Id still be safe, owning a gun is my choice.

Did your dad own a gun while you lived at home? Have you ever lived without a gun in your house?

None of my family owned a gun, the only guns that have ever been in any house I've lived in are the ones I've brought into them since my 18th birthday.

So you can just throw away your guns right? I mean in your freedom loving country, who needs a gun?

Its any citizens right to, or not to assert his or her rights, I choose to assert mine.

How would you feel if your guns where stolen, and later used to kill someone you loved?

I''d be pretty pissed my property was stolen.
and the fact someone harmed someone I loved, but if your asking would I feel responsible? No, I didn't harm them the criminal did

Would you feel guilty not having stored your guns properly or whatever?

You assume I don't store my guns properly...

I would!

No you wouldn't you don't have guns to store properly.

A lethal weapon is constructed for one purpase only...to kill!
So nomatter why you have one, it is disrespectfull for life!

Not protecting your own life is disrespectful to life.

I value mine, you seem to not value yours, thats very disrespectful to your life...

But please don't claim that freedom stands and falls, with the right to bear arms!

I don't need to claim anything history has already proven, Multiple times...

Freedom has to do with your rights as a human, not with your mechanical abilities to kill other people in selfdefense or attack, by the means of weapon.

Freedom does indeed have to do with your rights as a human, Rights are derived from property, your body and your life is your property as are the fruits produced via that property, and protecting that property is your right.

[edit on 3-2-2008 by C0le]

This is a great discussion. I percieve weapons as a layer of security.
There are gates to enter some neighborhoods, locks on doors etc. Guns are a last resort defense. If used in an offensive manner the end is usually your death. The NWO will probably end up taking guns away from Americans but, thats the future. (who knows)

Originally posted by Retseh

Originally posted by Essan
Maybe the real question is: why are some Americans so obsessed with the idea that everyone should have a gun

And so the thinly veiled "Americans are all nutters" routine begins.

Not at all. For a starter, you missed the word 'some'. Would you argue that no Americans are nutters? And besides, who says thinking everyone should have a gun makes them a nutter? Oh, you did ...... I just think it makes you have a rather different attitude to life than I do. And possibly reflects on living in a different type of society. That's all. But I would be interested in knowing why some people do seem to have such an obsession?

As for your own nation, judging by the behavior I routinely see on British streets, I would be very selective about calling yourselves civilized, having as you do the highest rate of violent assault in the "civilized" world according to a recent UN study. Doesn't sound very civilized to me.

You must walk different streets to me

Actually, I'm more worried about being hit on the head by a US spy satellite than I am about being shot at.

There's that American thing again, strange huh. You're more concerned about that than the way your Muslim community is getting the Neville Chamberlain treatment or your violent and degenerate teenagers.

No. You're misinterpreting what I said. I was making the point that I have no worry about being shot at all, using a recent news story (which has some people worrying about where the satellite will land) as an analogy. I might just as well have said being hit on the head by an engine falling off a British Airways jet.

And if someone did try and shoot me, chances are it'd be by surprise and I wouldn't have time to draw, shoot, and kill first - unless I spend my whole life with a gun in my hand.

And there we have it, the mindset of someone who is already defeated, someone who not only doesn't want to fight back, but is absolutely convinced that even if he did, he would surely lose.

No, the mindset of someone being practical and who doesn't think that carrying a gun automatically turns him into an expert marksman like Dirty Harry or Rambo.

Defeat would be the day I start carrying a gun because I no longer feel safe in my own streets. Thankfully at the moment I am able to walk my streets without the need for any weapon whatsoever. And I can leave my house unlocked at night likewise. I would hate to live in an a society where I did need to carry a weapon of any sort just to feel safe!

[edit on 4-2-2008 by Essan]

Originally posted by ThePiemaker
Fear, anger, hatred, jealousy, greed, revenge. Guns allow these feelings to be dealt with through very deadly means. more deadly than any other weapon a man has access to. long range killings, drive-by killings, you can't do these with knives. You cannot defend yourself from discharged bullets, You can only shoot first or retaliate. I'd prefer that guns were strictly regulated. I'd also prefer that people's mentalities change.

It's very big of you to decide for me what I can, and cannot, own. I myself would prefer that alcohol was banned, or how about cigarettes, or even fast food. They all kill far more people than firearms could ever dream of killing. Of course that's ridiculous, because making those choices is a personal freedom. Well so is the right to keep and bear arms, even more so since it is enshrined in the Constitution.

After all, why should I lose my privilege to do something, just because someone else abuses theirs?

Originally posted by Essan
But I would be interested in knowing why some people do seem to have such an obsession?

You see, it's the terminology you continually use that gives away your agenda. Firearms ownership is a fact for some 40% of Americans, but it is not an obsession. You don't ask why Americans consider it a "necessity" or ask "why is it such an enjoyable sport?", rather you classify it as an "obsession". Hence my belief that you are likely operating from the fairly standard UK stereotype of Americans all being fat, assault rifle wielding yahoos who are one hotdog away from their next mass shooting.

You must walk different streets to me

I doubt you're really that certain. You are statistically 3 times as likely to be the subject of a violent physical assault in the UK than you are in the USA. You have an entire language devoted to anti-social behavior (CHAVs, ASBOs, yobbos etc), and picking up any local newspaper in the UK does not tell me about the local girl scout cookie drive, it lists the vandalised cars, stolen stereos, and arrests for drunken violence that seem common to every UK town. I was genuinely shocked as this is not the UK most Americans imagine. You see, our stereotypes of you are generally positive.

No, the mindset of someone being practical and who doesn't think that carrying a gun automatically turns him into an expert marksman like Dirty Harry or Rambo.

Dirty Harry, Rambo - more gaping American stereotypes - your agenda isn't even barely concealed is it. The 2 million Americans who use a gun in self defence each year include large numbers of elderly people, or single women, those people least able to defend themselves with gentlemanly fisticuffs, and they are about as far away from your Rambo stereotype as you can get. At least try to understand this, you don't need to be a marksman to employ a weapon in self defence, what you need above all else is the will to employ it, and based on your response, you freely admit that you for one do not have that will. So I am left to assume that you would either not defend yourself at all, or you would choose a different means of self defence. If the former is true, then you are simply a victim in waiting, if the latter is true, then we differ only on the means of self defence and not the principle.

Defeat would be the day I start carrying a gun because I no longer feel safe in my own streets. Thankfully at the moment I am able to walk my streets without the need for any weapon whatsoever. And I can leave my house unlocked at night likewise. I would hate to live in an a society where I did need to carry a weapon of any sort just to feel safe!

I admire your confidence, I too am confident that I will never have a house fire, and yet I still have a fire extinguisher in my kitchen, because fires, while rare, do happen. I don't need it to feel safe, but it's good insurance nevertheless. I also admire your fortitude in not wanting to carry a firearm, although it's not as if you have any choice in the matter. What I do object to, is the fact that having made that choice for yourself, you would happily make that decision for others who do not feel quite so confident in the safety of your "gun free" society.

Originally posted by Retseh

Originally posted by Essan
But I would be interested in knowing why some people do seem to have such an obsession?

You see, it's the terminology you continually use that gives away your agenda.

Okay, maybe wrong words. But there have been numerous threads on ATS started by Americans asking why people on other countries don't all bear arms ..... whereas for us (in Britain anyway) the question is always 'why would anyone want to bear arms'.

A different culture, I guess.

You must walk different streets to me

I doubt you're really that certain.

I live here. I know how certain I am. I don't base my impression of Britain on newspaper stories.

You are statistically 3 times as likely to be the subject of a violent physical assault in the UK than you are in the USA.

All depends where you live

No, the mindset of someone being practical and who doesn't think that carrying a gun automatically turns him into an expert marksman like Dirty Harry or Rambo.

Dirty Harry, Rambo - more gaping American stereotypes - your agenda isn't even barely concealed is it.

Okay then, The Sweeny. I use Americans because most well known fictional characters who invariably shoot with the accuracy whereby they always hit their target without being shot themselves are American Probably because America makes lots more big, well known movies than Britain. No-one got shot in 4 Weddings and a Funeral .... And that's not an attack on America, just an observation. I happen to enjoy such American films. There have been some UK gangster movies but frankly they're largely rubbish. I'd sooner watch Bruce Willis than Vinnie Jones.

The 2 million Americans who use a gun in self defence each year

2 million people use a gun in self defence? Doesn't that tell you something?

What I do object to, is the fact that having made that choice for yourself, you would happily make that decision for others who do not feel quite so confident in the safety of your "gun free" society.

I know quite a few people in Britain. I don't know anyone who wants a gun for self defence. What makes you think they do?

That's perhaps the point - the assumption that people want to carry guns when in reality they don't. Of course, I don't know everyone in Britain and I'm sure in some places - especially inner city areas - opinions may be different. But not for the vast majority.

Originally posted by Essan
A different culture, I guess.

Definitely. America was born from force of arms (from the UK ironically) and is a much larger country with a lot more in the way of both game animals and dangerous animals than the UK.

I live here. I know how certain I am. I don't base my impression of Britain on newspaper stories.

Obviously I respect your opinion, but I spend a lot of time in the UK myself, mostly in the North. What I see there isn't pretty, and the streets do not appear safe. But we'll agree to differ on that.

Okay then, The Sweeny. I use Americans because most well known fictional characters who invariably shoot with the accuracy whereby they always hit their target without being shot themselves are American

The point was to forget movie stereotypes completely. You pointed out to me that I cannot understand the streets you live on everyday, which is valid. But you will equally never truly understand the gun culture in the US, unless you lived here for a while. It will always seem alien to you.

2 million people use a gun in self defence? Doesn't that tell you something?

Indeed it does. It tells me that that if firearms were banned tomorrow, those 2 million incidents would still happen, but they would be entirely one sided in favor of the attacker. By the way, almost all of those incidents end without a shot being fired.

I know quite a few people in Britain. I don't know anyone who wants a gun for self defence. What makes you think they do?

Well the 50,000 who used to own handguns for a start plus the 561,800 shotgun licenses issued between 2002 and 2003. More than a million people take part in shooting sports in the UK every year - more than in rugby, hockey and athletics. Seems like you don't know many people

Ultimately the UK is the way it is, once you lose firearms "privileges" you never get them back. We in the US will continue to fight through all legitimate channels to keep ours, and should the day ever arrive when we stand neutered in a firearms sense, just as you do, I think you will start to see the true decline of the US. I believe the issue to be that important.

[edit on 4-2-2008 by Retseh]

Originally posted by C0le
1.You're not American and have no say in this.

Doesn't that statement make this whole discussion a little futile? Someone could just as easily throw back something along the lines of "Well, you're not European/whatever so you don't have a say in this either." And so the discussion ends. Let's try to keep an open mind in this debate.

I implore all Americans to understand the differences between their culture and attitudes towards guns and that of other nations. You may believe that you are absolutely right about this issue; that's not necessarily true, and I think it all boils down to respecting the outlook that other nations have on various issues.

You keep talking about governments disarming their populace, but what if it was the citizenry that wanted guns to be more strictly controlled in the first place? (For that is the case in the UK - guns are NOT banned. I have an uncle who owns firearms legally). Even if one disagrees with limited or no private gun ownership, it's difficult to argue against what people want in a democracy (since that is what the UK is, not a republic).

Oh, and Retseh, I implore you to be careful about what you read in the British press. The tabloids in particular simply aren't worth bothering with because they're crammed full of half-truths and biases based on their proprietors (please feel free to take Mr. Murdoch back... or the Aussies can have him, I don't mind ). It's quite sad, actually, given that Fleet Street was once held as the pinnacle of world journalism. Now it's declined into muckraking and an unhealthy obsession with airheaded 'celebrities'. But that's a rant for another thread.

As someone who was born, grew up and lived in the northern half of the UK all his life, I find it hard to recognise the place you're describing... so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that aspect too.

Guns are for hunting and keeping your family fed first and foremost, defence a close second. No goverment can take away a mans right to eat and feed his family. If they do, they are not fit to govern the people as they are not upholding what freedom means. For a goverment to tell the people that they must reley on a farmer is wrong, when/if famine ever hits in your local area, you may wish you had a rifle to go hunting with.


I'm glad that I'm both backed by the 2nd amendment, and artical 1, section 6 of the Michigan constitution "Every person has a right to bear arms for the defence of himself and the state." Thats probably why michigan has more firearms than people currently living in the state. High crime is only experienced within big citys( i.e. Detroit) were most residents don't own fireams except criminals. Guns don't create violence if you are taught how to use, and respect them at a young age.

Originally posted by LordBaskettIV
Guns are for hunting and keeping your family fed first and foremost, defence a close second. No goverment can take away a mans right to eat and feed his family. If they do, they are not fit to govern the people as they are not upholding what freedom means. For a goverment to tell the people that they must reley on a farmer is wrong, when/if famine ever hits in your local area, you may wish you had a rifle to go hunting with.

The idea of a famine in Britain with tens of thousands of townies roaming the countryside with a gun trying to shoot a cow is either very funny or very frightening

No-one in Britain shoots specifically for food, except maybe the odd poacher taking a rabbit or 2 (and mostly they do it to sell on to someone else). Game birds and deer are shot for sport or population control but rarely eaten by those who pull the trigger.

It blows my mind that people are justifying gun bans because the MAJORITY of the people wish there to be stronger gun controls!! Lets hope the majority of the people do not decide also that you must give up your home or family or job for some nonsense either. Where exactly does the majority gain their power over the individual? Tyranny is tyranny whether from a dictator or the mob. The gun control worked great in Nazi Germany, you all probably want to round up the minorities too. For the public good and all.

Fascism IS a Democratic value. (I do not mean the Democratic party)

Oh, by the way. The thought of a bunch of city folk roaming the countryside stalking cattle made me choke on my soda.

[edit on 5-2-2008 by Tinhatman]

Originally posted by Tinhatman
...The gun control worked great in Nazi Germany, you all probably want to round up the minorities too. For the public good and all....

Contrary to what your type are regularly claiming in such discussions (as if it was proof for anything), the Nazis actually pretty much eased up the existing control laws and actually encouraged hunting and recreational shooting. It was easier getting a rifle legally under the Nazis than in the 50 years before that. The chart concerning gun control laws that you posted earlier is wrong on that, or deliberately misleading. (it cites a law from 1928, now look up when the Nazis came in power...)

Originally posted by LordBaskettIV
Guns are for hunting and keeping your family fed first and foremost, defence a close second. No goverment can take away a mans right to eat and feed his family. If they do, they are not fit to govern the people as they are not upholding what freedom means. For a goverment to tell the people that they must reley on a farmer is wrong, when/if famine ever hits in your local area, you may wish you had a rifle to go hunting with.

Are you serious? Its not the government that "tells you to rely on a farmer", it is the 6 billion people on this planet, and "Liebig´s law of the minimum". Do you hinestly think that all the game in North America could feed your 300 million population in case of a famine?!?

...High crime is only experienced within big citys( i.e. Detroit) were most residents don't own fireams except criminals. ...

High crimes happen where the social conflicts are the worst, which happens to be the big cities with failing local economy. The prevalence of guns has zilch to do with the cause of the crimes, it can only marginally affect the types of crimes.

[edit on 6/2/2008 by Lonestar24]

My Personal Opinion

I don't believe that there is any big New World Order or Government

conspiracy to take away people's guns in different countries.

The media is responsible in most countries in my opinion, here in Canada the

Toronto news always talks about the supposed illegal guns coming from the

states scaring people into thinking guns are bad.

Much like in the states there is a misconception that Marijuana is a horrible

drug worse than cocaine and heroine because of all the sensational reports.

Whatever your country seems to be afraid of that is what will be demonized

by the media and banned.

Reading a few posts here it seems each country has it's own irrational fear of

something (ex Britain and Denmark are afraid of Guns).

People don't believe the hype!!! Popular Opinion is usually wrong.

and thats my opinion.

Basically America is falling apart, there are so many nutjobs, rednecks, uneducated etc here. You kinda need a gun to take out the trash.
As other people have said, true freedom is not thinking you have to carry a gun for your protection. There is bugger all freedom here, it's very sad. After living in China for a few years, I have seen the virtues of a gun free society. I could walk anywhere at all hours and not be worried about some hood trying to mug me with a gun, trying to car jack me etc etc.

I guess the Iraqi's wold make the same argument about guns that people are here. They need them to defend themselves from an illegal government and an invading country. I bet all those GI's are happy Iraq has the same gun controls as America.

People at my university here want concealed carry licenses, how stupid ! Of course these are the >2.0 GPA students.