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Fact and Fiction, The Iraq Conflict

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posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 09:49 PM
reply to post by manticore

Yes Manticore we in fact did create this civil war. That is why I believe that is why I believe that we should stay in Iraq in more of a support roll instead of being an aggressor.

Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq , The Wiki Article, the pdf file.

We did have authorization from congress prior to the start of this war for an armed conflict. The problem still remains that we did go to war for the wrong reasons using bad intelligence but we did have the authority from congress to go to war.

That is the point of why this is an immoral war not an illegal one.

posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 10:03 PM
reply to post by whatukno

whatukno- Unfortunately, to the tens of thousands (conservatively) dead as a result of this action, it probably doesn't matter whether it was immoral or illegal.
We can't undo what has been done, but I'm concerned that we may not have learned anything from this horrific mistake. The same people who trumped up reasons to go to war with Iraq are doing the same with Iran. I'm not passing judgement on the Iran regime one way or the other. But I sure hope we don't act like cowboys and start bombing just because Cheney and Bush now say that they're a threat to us.

posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 10:18 PM
reply to post by ProfEmeritus

I agree with you we should be much more sure of the reasons we go to war. We certainly don't need the deaths of 4248 coalition soldiers deaths. 3941 US deaths. VS 1,168,058 Iraqi deaths sense the start of this war.

We in this country need to write to our congressmen telling them to NOT go to war with Iran especially for no real reason except that we feel the need. We should want and demand that we abstain from sending our brave men and women into another middle east theater when other measures can be taken.

posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 11:06 PM
reply to post by whatukno

Wow.. 1.16 million out of 27 million. You would think that would be quite obvious in the news and so forth if that many people where dieing.

And to think, the most outlandish number I thought I had come across on ATS was 600k+.

1.16 million deaths.

posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 12:15 AM
reply to post by semperfortis

Semper isn't true that the war in Iraq was in the planning stages well before 9-11?

FACT- The american people were told lies to to be led into this war. You know Semper, fact are all fine and dandy and I can provide plenty of them but what ever happened to good ole fashioned critical thinking?

[edit on 30-1-2008 by pompano]

posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 12:23 AM
reply to post by Rockpuck

80,690 – 88,117 is the official count

This is the site where I came up with the rather LARGE number in my previous post. Whether it includes all deaths that have happened in both gulf wars or if they are just pulling numbers out of their
I can't be certain but the official numbers are 80k+

posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 03:10 AM
I agree....At the time the cry for war was loud and coming from the left and the GOP. The war part was never a question with me. I only wished we had nailed Syria Iran and Saudi too. Secure the oil fields and let Russia have N Iran. lol....But thats just me, I could be wrong

posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 03:19 AM
Read these three links

joint resolution

AP report of comments by hans blix

cnn report on pullin out weapons inspectors

Put all this together and conclude:

The U.S. pulled out weapons inspectors before the job was done. The weapons inspectors had detected no WMD's prior to being pulled out on order by the Bush Adminstration.

One of the stipulations of the authorization by congress was:

Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United States intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program, and that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program that was much closer to producing a nuclear weapon than intelligence reporting had previously indicated;

Whereas Iraq, in direct and flagrant violation of the cease-fire, attempted to thwart the efforts of weapons inspectors to identify and destroy Iraq's weapons of mass destruction stockpiles and development capabilities, which finally resulted in the withdrawal of inspectors from Iraq on October 31, 1998;

By pulling out the weapons inspectors without finding WMD evidence the above stipulations were not meant. Therefore the conditions for the authorization of force were not meant. Hence, The actions to invade IRAQ weren't in compliance with the authorization for force and ILLEGAL.

Anything wrong with my logic?

posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 11:39 AM
The Iraq War was and still is illegal because there was no justification for attacking the country under international law PLUS the fact that we wouldn't let Hans Blix finish his WMD inspection. Supposedly, our justification for attacking Iraq was that they had weapons of mass destruction. Yet, when Hans Blix said he only needed 30 more days to complete his WMD inspection, the Bush Administration wouldn't allow it.

They insisted they couldn't wait 30 more days -- without ever giving any justification as to exactly why not.

That's the incredible thing about it. We were going to start a war based on our suspicion that Iraq had WMDs, but we wouldn't allow the UN inspection for WMDs (which, incredibly, WE had asked for just a few months before) to continue. Had we done so, Iraq would have been certified WMD-free.

And yes, it's STILL a war there. It has morphed into a civil war, but it's still a war. The fact that the puppet government there wants us to protect them from their own people doesn't change the fundamental illegality of the war. Since we were not attacked by Iraq, no international court would ever find that we had an obvious right to self-defense. There was no imminent danger to the United States.

The fact that this whole thing has been a catastrophe for Iraq is lost on supporters of the War.

posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 11:54 AM
You know Semper I dont know why you even started this thread because the likes of you and Rockpuck think America should be able to do what it likes to whom it likes whenever it likes. And to try and introduce alleged facts based on lies coming from a corrupt Goverment speaks for itself.

If America committed a Holocaust type event the both of you would still back your Goverment no matter what, and one has only to see the smiley faces posted by Rock when arguing just how many Iraqis have died in this illegal war to see just what you think of human life. That shows the mentality of people such as yourself, that you try and justify murder and torture as legal when you know dam well its not.

As I said before America is a bully and like all bullies its going to get its payback and I dont think you will be smiling then.

posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 12:56 PM
It's all a slight of hand..

When one is looking one way and thinking all is well due to understanding what is shown and being able to comprehend. The other continues onward unabated and unchallenged.

Unless one is in the know.. what may seem factual is only an illusion.

eg.. Bush visits the middle east and boasts of seeing other countries embracing democracy and human rights. He's in Arab countries where their rulers do not embrace his views.

Actually.. Bush does not even believe these views..

Only reason he presents it, is to showboat to the media and to his "own" country and ally citizens.

Right now we have countries committing atrocities and genocide.. yet.. they are not being "invaded". Why? It's not to the benefit of a select few who only look out for certain benefits and criteria which would interfere on their goals, ambitions and views.

Even if "facts" were brought to light.. this does not mean things will change. So many times have I seen lies and injustice being done by those who hold seats of power.. only to be challenged or removed by another equal or powerful opponent.

Look at the bank scandal in France.. now the "trader" is saying that so long as the "bank" made a profit from his illegal trades, started in 2005, they turned a blind eye. Now that the bank went red, they are giving him to the wolves... How many other institutions do like wise.. not just banks.. but any business that profits by raping the blind and ignorant.

Sorry .. but its not always black and white.. its not always one law/rule fits all. Its so skewed, that the only way to grasp the wrongs and rights is dependent on what one "believes" and "feels".

Like views attract like views.. opposing views repel opposing views..

posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 08:24 PM
reply to post by Rockpuck

Sorry Rockpuck I guess I was right about the amount of Iraqi deaths sense the start of the war. It's a horrible number indeed.

Iraqi Death Study

Apparently they didn't pull the numbers out of their
over a million Iraqi deaths. Over in my opinion an Immoral war.

posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 08:51 PM
Does the Democratically elected government of Iraq have the right to tell American forces to stop bombing Iraq?

Do they have the right to tell us to leave?

Do they have the right to kick out the Special court and its foreign administrative judges?

Did the democratically elected government have the right to create a constitution that the occupation did not like?

The answer to all these questions is no.

The only thing democratic about Iraq is that everyone got to vote. The same was true under Saddam.

Iraq is under hostile military occupation. This does not preclude elections. The highest power is the administrator which is the US State Department.

Why do you think they are building the largest embassy in world history in downtown Baghdad right on to of the historical seat of power? Its because America plans on ruling Iraq for a long time. They have set up all the legal means and military capabilities to enable this for decades to come.

And they are stealing the oil. Far more is being pumped out than is being reported sold.

The shares to the central bank were sold in private auction and bought up by foreigners. They now control the money supply.

And as long as America is in control none but approved companies will get oil contracts.

America has veto power over any and all government actions. What you see is elected puppets and most of them know it.

The people want to be free, but America has created the situation where the government is hated for its submission and unable to maintain control on its own because few want to join the system run by the oppressor.

They remember what happened when the British appointed monarchy was overthrown. Those who held power in the name of the Crown either fled the country or died in a pool of blood.

If America truely wanted to liberate Iraq the government would set a time table for withdrawal, closed up the special court, stop all bombing, end search and destroy missions and handed over the embassy. Anything less shows INTENTION of perpetual occupation. The perception that American forces will never leave is the reason for the resistance. And it won't end any more than resistance to colonial rule ended in America until the Brits were kicked out.

posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 09:43 PM
reply to post by whatukno

80-150k is a reasonable guess. Outstanding in and of its self.. no doubt.. we waged hell over 3k people.. it would have been Armageddon had we lost 150k ..

I think CNN's total (by counting casualties as reported by media) is 115k ..

Then again, i saw today a thread where they guessed 1.02 million people..

Of course, they interview 2,000 households, found out 20% of them knew someone who died, averaged it out somehow to 1.02 million deaths......

Very scientific eh?
It put casualties this year alone at 400,000...

The war sucks, and 150k is to many dead, I just hate it when people ignorantly or intentionally disfigure numbers to fit their ideologies.

no one cares for the truth....

posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 08:58 AM

Last October, speaking of the U.S.-led invasion and occupation at Stanford University, where he is now a visiting fellow of the Hoover Institute, former CENTCOM Commander General John Abizaid told the audience, "Of course it's about oil, we can't really deny that." General Abizaid's comment came roughly a month after former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan wrote in his memoir, "I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil."

Its pretty hard to prove the intent of the Iraq war. To do that you would have to read the minds of everyone behind the invasion and occupation. But there have been confessions by some of the biggest players. And just the other day the news said that most of the Iraqi oil money has been spent, not on rebuilding Iraq, instead it was used to buy US bonds. What a horrible way for Iraq to be spending their money. They have great needs at home. Its little wonder they want to drive America out!

posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 11:23 AM
reply to post by semperfortis

It's an illegal war, and capitalizing your words to make a point does not verify anything except you are immature and try to intimidate.

I'll debate you about the legality of this illegal invasion and occupation anywhere, anytime, and you will lose.

Thoroughly enjoyed the statement about the missing WNDs "if that is ever substantiated..." A rael real Marine already has: Scott Ritter.

In fact, in point of fact, he did so before the illegal invasion.

And oh yes, the Iraqis invited us to kill over one million civilians since 1993 that never harmed us.

And sure thing, those aren't puppets we installed you label "democratically elected."

Can I have some of what you are smoking?

posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 11:40 AM
reply to post by Rockpuck

I've not looked into this to much in the last few months but from a few different sites that I have looked into, I would probably place the toll at around 350k but what do i know..
You know what though? It is improving over there!
Remember Fallujah, the beheading capital of the world?
It is now one of the safest cities in all of Iraq, there are currently only 250 Marines assigned to Fallujah and they are complaining that its so quiet there that they worry more about complacency than they do about being shot or blown up.

Seriously, if it can happen in Fallujah theres hope for Iraq!

posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 11:49 AM
reply to post by whatukno

Unfortunately for your argument, the fact that the US congress played along with an illegal invasion does not make it "legal": The US does not make up the entirety of the world. This wasn't Arkansas we invaded: it was a sovereign foreign state. So yeah, it's the world's business, too. And the world legal entity for invasion is the UN, which did not give approval for an illegal war of aggression against Iraq by the US, period. Which is why Bush had to bribe a few other states into his "alliance", or "coalition of the willing" (to invade illegally) which is now composed of us.

And, mark my words, ignoring war crimes, ignoring Geneva Conventions, ignoring the 935 fully documented lies told to justify the invasion of Iraq for Israel does not make it legal, and will come back to bite us on the ass in ways you can't begin to comprehend.

For instance, economic wars will be conducted, and we will, no we are, sinking into Third World status daily, while Bush wants another damn $70 billion to piss away in the desert. Yep, that one trillion we spend on our military yearly evidently is for the golf course upkeep for generals, not to actually conduct defense against real threats to our shores: See 9/11/01. Where were they, anyway? Odd, that, very odd.

McCain's insane rhetoric about "bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran", which is also just for Israel's sake, if elected, will trigger events his incompetent administration will be unable to foresee...just like the delusional "we'll be greeted with flowers..." we got from this unelected and thoroughly inept administration. Uh Huh, that's why more US military personnel were killed in 2007 than any other year since this insanity began. They want us there? Delusional much??

Do you think we have the franchise to invade like Hitler did Poland? Can you explain the difference?

Wars of aggression are illegal, period, no matter what "justification" you have made up in your mind.

Illegal, end of story.

News flash: Beijing invades D.C., says alupang asked them to come and clean up the town, so they are "justified" as alupang is a US citizen.

Ya dig?

Explain the difference, please.

posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 11:53 AM
reply to post by Rockpuck

Go read today's news: it's over 1 million killed since 1993.

Courtesy is Mandatory
How Not to be Banned from ATS

[edit on 1-31-2008 by worldwatcher]

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