Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors

You know I am not a smoker never have been. However, I do know they use act like it was the “IN” thing to do. It was promoted as a good thing. It was in your classic TV shows. Example, “I love Lucy” promoted smoking all the time. Of course it’s not alone. Your classic movies also promoted it as well as magazine’s and newspaper’s and commercial’s and bill broads. Now they are fussing at these same people they did this too.

Obese in my opinion for the most part comes from the hormones, steroids, and all the other junk they put into our foods. They already found the gene in mice that can make one mice eat and eat and eat and no matter what he gains no weight. Likewise a mice eats normal and everything he eats puts weight on him. So again in my opinion, they have made some people fat. There is too many people today that are 250, 300, 350, 400, 450, 500+ pounds here in our county. This is un heard years ago. We have done this too them. I don’t believe other countries have the same problems it’s because they don’t USE their people as guinea pigs.

On top of all this now you know what socialize medicine is going to be all about when the democrats puts it into action. Thousands of people will be denied care and left to die.

Originally posted by whaaa
The health for profit system in the US actually shows what is important in this culture of greed and corruption.

The article from the OP is about the UK NHS as is the thread.

It's all part of the New World Order agenda. According to the Georgia Guidestones Georgia Guidestones the NWO would like to see the human population not to exceed 500,000,000 worldwide. (How many people thrive in China?) It also appears that more and more people seem to be getting sick and more frequently. There is a thread on ATS discussing this posibility More frequency and increased illness. One possible cause of this is starting to convince me more and more as I see people around me getting sicker and more frequently is chemtrails. Here is the link to ATS discussions on chemtrails for those still speculating the validity of the existence of chemtrails Chemtrail links on ATS

All of the above seems to fit together nicely like a jigsaw puzzle. I am becoming more of a believer regarding the existance of chemtrails decreasing our body's immune systems. This could cause the increased activity of illnesses. Along with all of mankind's virus experiments breaking out of the labs and into the wild. (whether planned or not) The failure to treat "certain" people fits in with statement #2 on the Geargia guidestone, for the NWO "Guide reproduction wisely - improving fitness and diversity" and statement # 9 "Prize truth - beauty - love - ...." Statement #9 seems to me that they are wanting to breed out the bad leaving only the perfect and beautiful one's to breed and reproduce.

There are many more possible explanations for all of these but they all seem to fit together, in my honest opinion.

What do you think?

Originally posted by Shar
You know I am not a smoker never have been. However, I do know they use act like it was the “IN” thing to do. It was promoted as a good thing. It was in your classic TV shows. Example, “I love Lucy” promoted smoking all the time. Of course it’s not alone. Your classic movies also promoted it as well as magazine’s and newspaper’s and commercial’s and bill broads. Now they are fussing at these same people they did this too.

Obese in my opinion for the most part comes from the hormones, steroids, and all the other junk they put into our foods. They already found the gene in mice that can make one mice eat and eat and eat and no matter what he gains no weight. Likewise a mice eats normal and everything he eats puts weight on him. So again in my opinion, they have made some people fat. There is too many people today that are 250, 300, 350, 400, 450, 500+ pounds here in our county. This is un heard years ago. We have done this too them. I don’t believe other countries have the same problems it’s because they don’t USE their people as guinea pigs.

On top of all this now you know what socialize medicine is going to be all about when the democrats puts it into action. Thousands of people will be denied care and left to die.

I keep saying that they are using such groups like "smokers" as scapegoats. It masks the culprit.....we've made our world a cesspool of unnatural, toxic crap!!....and at the same time, since they know all this crap has done major damage to many of us, and that damage is showing up now, as the baby boomers age. hey when I was a kid, I played in one of what is now one of the superfund sites!! Do you really think that a little cigarette smoke is gonna matter after having a toxic dump as a playground? and it was, right in back of the playground! but anyway, I think there's gonna be quit of few chronic diseases plaguing the baby boomers, causing cancers, and such...and well, our children, well, their lungs aren't developing to normal capacity because of the smog in the cities. we have obese kids!!!....not fat kids, we had a few of those when I was in school....but these kids are OBESE!!! and I knew someone personally that was strugging with this problem with her own kid. you wouldn't believe what they did to get the kid to lose weight. and the kid just gained! well, I think they know that this is all an environmental issue, and that they are gonna have some really major problems in the healthcare area soon...and they've picked out their scapegoats, and are in the process of getting the public used to the idea that hey, this is gonna be just too costly and well, these people here, we have justifiable reasons to cut them loose.

reply to post by dawnstar


The problem here in the UK is that railing against some groups (like smokers) is seen as trendy.

Whilst we of course have to do everything we can for the poor souls who couldn't do one of 2 things;
Keep it in their pants,
Use protection.

I have nothing against treating people with HIV/Aids - but are a lot of sufferers not responsible for their problems in the same way they say obese people and smokers are?

A level playing field is all I'm asking for, and help those first who put into the system.

Originally posted by budski
A level playing field is all I'm asking for, and help those first who put into the system.

Isn't that how this whole thing got started in the first place? Everyone wanted a level playing field so they decided to hand their money over to an entity that would distribute it how it sees fit.

Of course at the bare minimum anyone who has paid into it should get care equal to the value they have paid in but isn't that just people paying for their own care?

When you use terms like "level playing field" you're asking for trouble because what is and what is not "level" is completely subjective. Some people think allowing everyone to pay their own way and pay for what they can afford in a free market is fair, others think allowing some to pay thousands and others to pay hundreds (or nothing at all) while both receive the same amount of care as fair.

Then there are the elitist oligarchs who think having the population they rule over pay for their lives to be extended while the population receives no care as fair. After all strong country needs strong leaders, right? I guarantee this scenario will happen sooner or later and the vast majority of people will be swayed by delusions of patriotism into accepting it.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


I take your point, but perhaps you missed mine, or I wasn't clear in what I was trying to say.

I mean that every person who has paid national insurance contributions or is a UK citizen should have the same treatment options.

Instead we have the postcode lottery of treatments available and treatment being denied to certain groups.

This is great! I mean, i'm kind of overweight so that should knock a few percent off my national insurance payments for the treatments i'm not going to get. Beer and cigarettes will be cheaper as they won't be taking the extra tax on them to pay for 'treating smoking related illness' etc. I'm going to save a fortune under this scheme. Maybe we can convince them not to treat car accidents so we can bring the price of petrol down a bit.

What? That's not how it works? You mean I still have to pay more than everyone else even though i'm getting a lesser service?

Seriously, it's none of the doctors business what I do in my spare time. I could snort asbestos while chugging back a nice cool glass of industrial diesel and it still shouldn't matter a damn because everyone is (supposed to be) equal.

It's their job to treat the ill, not judge them.

reply to post by Chris McGee


Yup,
they take your money that has been used to prop up the NHS then refuse you treatment.

Welcome to blairs britain.

24 hours to save the NHS said blair
90,000 hours later, SAVE THE NHS BY DENYING PEOPLE TREATMENT THEY HAVE PAID FOR!

reply to post by andy1033


No, they play "banker" which, as we all know, is an entity way more powerful than "GOd" since accorrding to Pat Robertson, even God needs money.

The way i see it , this policy will leed to total desintegration of public services or large medical insurances. Older people also need more medical care and more expansives treatments, so will we deny them that too? In the future percent of elderly population will grow.
And once science finds cure for cancer there will be acute rise in this population. So deny them treatment?
Instead of solving these issues by prevention (education, fining large companies, providing SERVICES)
the easier way is to devide people into 1st Class, 2nd and ctr.

Our society has to change to accomodate the huge tech jump, but
this is NOT the way. Social medical service is not combat medicine.

Except for less than 1% of the world population, we are ALL 2nd class citizens.

This is one step away from Soylent Green.

Hmmmm, as it stands I find the premise of using this type of triage unacceptable from a moral and ethical standpoint.

Just to clarify however:

It would not be the rank and file Doctors that would be plaing god, it would be administrators etc (some of whom would be MD's. I can tell you that most doctors and nurses would NOT support this at all. I would know I am a nurse.

However, what can and should be looked at IMHO is futile care. We have evolved the medical arts to the point where we can keep you 'alive" in a persistant vegatative state in an intensive care unit even if you will never recover. This type of futility puts a huge strain on the medical system not only in terms of beds, equipment, and costs, but it also takes its toll on the families and the providers of the care.

Eliminating this futile care once there really is no chance would IMHO make the savings the bean counters want, without denying care to those that are still alive and really need it.

reply to post by FredT


Here's how it works, at the moment.

A person goes to their GP who finds something wrong, he refers them to the relevant specialist who says "we can't treat you because you smoke, and that makes the healing process uncertain and the operation more dangerous, therefore I'm not doing it"
"But - quit smoking for 3 moths and we'll do the operation"

Now expand that to include the obese and the elderly.

An elderly person who is otherwise in good health could be refused another few years of life because of their age?

So now we have only the relatively young who have chronic conditions receiving treatment, or a few scans and xrays and tests - and hey presto! Targets met, money all round and everyone goes home happy.

Except for those pesky smokers, obese people and elderly - does anyone care? after all, they'll all be dead in a few years, so problem solved.

They'll be doing re-runs of logans run soon



[edit on 28/1/2008 by budski]

reply to post by budski


I appreciate hearing experiences that one has in this kind of health care plan. Like I said in another post, I have yet to hear anything good from someone living in a country with a health care system like yourself. And to think that others would want to implement this now, it boggles my mind.

Can anyone say anything positive about this system?

Just a friendly FYI. The Hippocratic Oath

I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:

To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.

I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.

If I fulfil this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.

Yeah... "Doctors". Nursing professionals rule.

Vic

reply to post by V Kaminski


The oath means nothing!!!!!

Not any more.

reply to post by sputniksteve


The NHS has been, in general, good for the country and its people over the years.

It has appeared to be on the point of breaking down for a number of years, but has survived.

Despite its faults, I would rather have this system, than the US system, which enriches only insurance companys and reduces patients to a financial bottom line - although some would say that this happens in the NHS as well.

It needs to be remembered that the NHS has a larger budget than many economies in the world today.

It's not perfect, but it's the best we've got - but the principles it was founded on are slowly being eroded.
This is due to many factors, but one of the biggest is that of health tourism - which is why I advocate prioritising those who have paid into the system.

To some extend I can agree with the doctors. Not on the elderly, but at least on the obese. And then I do not mean a little overbite, but the digustinlgy fat jabba the hut-like people that need three seats in the stadium and are a walking hart attack - or worse. The point being that there is no point in helping these people because their problem is mainly psychological. The problem is between the ears. These people do not want to be healed. They just wabt to be fixed so they can eat some more.

I don't know how the health system in the UK works, but here in Holland we ALL pay for these people, because usually they live on welfare because they are to fat to get up and work. These people have severe problems, but they are not only physical. Humans are not build to weigh 250 plus kilo's. I say it is in the best interest of these people that as a prerequisite for an operation, these people need to comply to be mentally examined and if needed, go into therapy.


[edit on 29-1-2008 by cappuccino]