I don't mind fighting, it's the dieing that I mind. Tell me I'm guaranteed to live through a war and I"ll fight with the best of them. If I die I don't want it to be serving someone else's whim or fighting someone else's fight.

Originally posted by mpeake
I will turn 27 before the possible draft would be re-instated and I'm sorta upset that I would be too old to be drafted to serve and defend my country.

You may be too old for the, possible, draft but, you can still enlist if you're under 35.

It is very clear to everyone our numerous military deployments arround the world are rather on the skimpy side and the defense deptment bigwigs are concerned at lower enlistment quotas . Off course their sons( and the sons of senators and congressmen usually get draft deferments) so they have no quams at reinstating the draft ,let the grunts be the cannon foder as long as their military objectives are reached. the only thing holding the passing of those agendas back is that this is an election year, once that has passed mandatory enlistment You see. all these bases have to be manned and you do have constant attrition due to retirement.battle casualties ect.

Originally posted by BigJohn

They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin

My suggestion? Leave now!

Ok, shall we have look at the definition of liberty?

Lib´er`ty Pronunciation: lĭb´ẽr`tŷ
1. The state of a free person; exemption from subjection to the will of another claiming ownership of the person or services; freedom; - opposed to slavery, serfdom, bondage, or subjection.

So to be subjected to a compulsory draft would be against the very idea of liberty.

As for the attitude of: 'you're either with us or against us', well that's just ignorant of other people and their way of living life. Some of us, given the choice, would prefer to solve our problems without using weapons.

That's Our liberty.

"Nothing will end war unless the people themselves refuse to go to war."
Albert Einstein, 1931

If you still don't get it, here's a blast from the past:

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

Hermann Goering interviewed by Gustave Gilbert during
the Easter recess of the Nuremberg trials, 1946 April 18, quoted in
Gilbert's book 'Nuremberg Diary.'

[edit on 12-7-2004 by shanti23]

seriously....
this is a hugely important topic - and one which has me scared.
Put political preferences aside and think for a moment, ya'll.

5600 retired servicemembers were involuntarily recalled this summer.
Allow that fact to register.

*5600*.

That means our military was in *dire need* of active duty personnel.
Why? Because our armed forces are being depleted. Killed. Maimed. Wiped out.

Since Mr. Bush doesn't appear to be rattled by this no-win situation
it's safe to assume he's going to need more troops in the future, no?
Where do you think they'll be coming from? Mars?





[edit on 19-9-2004 by bushblows]

With so many countries pulling their troops out, they are more
than likely looking to see how they will replenish the loss man power.

i am gonna break my legs so i dont have to go

Originally posted by browha
holy crud...
is this real?
note that you have to be healthy/fit so that rules out most americans already

Lol Your right there, I bet all does Overweight americans are going to hurt the army becuase their going to have to spend a little more money on them.

The problem isn't that the U.S. doesn't have enough soldiers and equipment; the problem is that it's all spread too far out. The U.S. should consolidate its forces, putting soldiers & equipment only where it's needed the most. Then, what's not needed outside the country should return to the U.S.

Originally posted by shanti23

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

Hermann Goering interviewed by Gustave Gilbert during
the Easter recess of the Nuremberg trials, 1946 April 18, quoted in
Gilbert's book 'Nuremberg Diary.'

Nice to see Herr Goering resurrected, Shanti.
Excellent quote.
It's a shame Bush's followers dismissed Germany as being part of "old europe" - they could learn lots from the countries Nazi past.

Problem is Americans are lots dumber then Germans - unlike Hitler, Bush has a low IQ, isn't an impassioned speaker and will never be hailed as a war hero. Seems the masses are alot less picky these days!










[edit on 19-9-2004 by bushblows]

Originally posted by RandomKungFu
School and Canada won't be of any use to draft dodgers this time...
Congress brought twin bills, S. 89 and H.R. 163 forward this year, entitled the Universal National Service Act of 2003, "To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons [age 18--26] in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes."

and...

College and Canada will not be options. In December 2001, Canada and the US signed a "Smart Border Declaration," which could be used to keep would-be draft dodgers in. Signed by Canada's Minister of Foreign Affairs, John Manley, and US Homeland Security Director, Gov. Tom Ridge, the declaration involves a 30-point plan which implements, among other things, a "pre-clearance agreement" of people entering and departing each country. Reforms aimed at making the draft more equitable along gender and class lines also eliminates higher education as a shelter. Underclassmen would only be able to postpone service until the end of their cur-rent semester. Seniors would have until the end of the academic year.


So really the only way to get out of this war is if your last name is Bush.

Am so glad my son has dual citizenships.
Don't like the draft never will unless it is to defend the homeland at home.

Originally posted by ThunderCloud
The problem [...]it's all spread too far out

They are restructuring lots of the global troop positioning right now. They're moving troops back from the dmz in korea right now, and they moved central command to qatar a while back. That was no small move, and certainly not 'temporary'. It shows a shift in geo-strategic considerations. I bet before long they'll move lots more troops out of germany. They were there to occupy it, then to defend it, and I think that they can handle a russian invasion (if we pretend that there was one) long enough that having US troops there isn't warranted anymore. The major threat isn't the SU (obviously) so things are being shifted. Central Asia and the Gulf are vitally important. (as obviously are some other areas)

The shame about it is that its difficult to find a place to base US troops in the gulf. Putting the small number of troops in Saudi Arabia that were there after the Gulf War is part of bin ladens claimed reasons for war. I'd think that the only troops in Iraq will be dealing with Iraq, and Jordan prolly can't accept any. The Sudan would be an interesting choice, might stabilize the rest of africa too if you think about it, while still be a better jumppoint for the mid east than germany. Turkey looks to be off limits. And isreal is the real disappointment there. Basing US troops in Israel would be great logistically. Has numerous ports on the Med, could even extend to control the Suez canal and thus access to the red sea and indian oceans. But it just has too many political implications now.

Originally posted by bushblows That means our military was in *dire need* of active duty personnel.
Why? Because our armed forces are being depleted. Killed. Maimed. Wiped out.

The call ups simply aren't a response to causualties, they are a reponse to having an entirely new field of responsibility, namely iraq, which requires lots of soldiers to patrol and pacify it. Its not a measure to replace deaths and such.

[edit on 19-9-2004 by Nygdan]

Mandatory national service is a good thing. A populace of individuals schooled in the specialties germane national security is a very good thing. Having a population of individuals who have something invested in their own liberty is a wonderful thing.

I'm all for the draft and alternative service for conscientious objectors. Canada needs to prepare for a massive influx of US emigrants.

I'm just brainstorming here, had a random idea... Why can't we have people who are in prison right now go to Iraq? You know, tell them, "You can remain in jail for the rest of your sentence, or sign up with the U.S. Army and/or Peace Corps and go to Iraq and try to help people instead of serving time for past misdeeds. Your choice." Of course, the truly sick and demented people would end up staying in prison, but there are plenty of people in prison who made a mistake, and are paying the price for that mistake, but would jump at the chance to do this, I'd think...

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Mandatory national service is a good thing.

I dunno, I used to think that. Israel has it and so does germany. I agree with most of your reasoning below (ever read starship troopers, you might be a heinlein fan). But the British Empire was able to conqure a quarter of the world with a volunteer army. And I rather like the idea that the US is able to do everything that it is going right now with volunteer citizen soldiers. It makes their service all the more distinguished.

I'm all for the draft and alternative service for conscientious objectors. Canada needs to prepare for a massive influx of US emigrants.

Eh, they'll just get a presidental pardon again anyway...

thundercloud
I'm just brainstorming here, had a random idea... Why can't we have people who are in prison right now go to Iraq?

Because its one of the first historical signs of the deterioration of a nation? That and usuing mercenaries. The romans started doing somethign of the sorts and it went bad at times. The brits did a lot of that and lost a war against 13 disunited colonies and ragtag poorly equiped and poorly trained farmers in the woods.

The problem is that the 'sick and demented' (by which I think you mean the 'true' criminals, as opposed to regular people who have commited crimes) aren't necessarily not going to enlist. And, also, it does raise a question of what exactly the country is doing, and it makes 'lets get tough on crime' laws rather questionable, since in effect you'll be arresting people and saying, well, we'll let you out if you join the army. Doesn't seem quite right. Besides, criminals should be punished, and the volunteers soldiers that the US have now shouldn't be forced to mix with them.

Originally posted by ThunderCloud
Why can't we have people who are in prison right now go to Iraq? You know, tell them, "You can remain in jail for the rest of your sentence, or sign up with the U.S. Army and/or Peace Corps and go to Iraq and try to help people instead of serving time for past misdeeds. Your choice."

In the old days many a young miscreant was given the chance to make a better life for himself when a judge offered him the choice of jail or enlistment in the Marine Corps. Those days are gone, however.

The service doesn't need criminals who are doing hard time. The US military wants intelligent, educated, dedicated, honorable, loyal, well-disciplined individuals to serve--most especially the Marine Corps. The idiotic acitons of the buffoons at Abu Ghraib is just one reason why.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
In the old days many a young miscreant was given the chance to make a better life for himself when a judge offered him the choice of jail or enlistment in the Marine Corps. Those days are gone, however.

The service doesn't need criminals who are doing hard time. The US military wants intelligent, educated, dedicated, honorable, loyal, well-disciplined individuals to serve--most especially the Marine Corps. The idiotic acitons of the buffoons at Abu Ghraib is just one reason why.

Which is why they patrol poor rural or urban areas looking for young people to snatch up and fight wars for the causes of rich white men who couldn't give a crap about them or their towns.

"screw the cities that are falling apart, screw the families that can't afford to eat, lets take their kids and ship them to die in some godforsaken country. We'll give them an education! As long as they can use it for a career in the military. But if they get hurt on the job, we won't do anything to help them. It's win-win!"

Go marines.