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Why question the holocaust?

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posted on Jan, 28 2008 @ 07:13 AM
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Originally posted by benign.psychosis
You can't trust the witnesses who were famished, diseased, dying, and psychologically inempt, hallucinating from extreme mental and physical stress.


And how did they get in that state?

Anything to do with being systematically persecuted, rounded up at dawn, shoved onto trains like cattle and treated like animals by any chance?

I think you'll find that most people have a damn good idea when someone is trying to kill them, despite whatever spin you might choose to want to put on it.

As for "tearing someone in half", when you've seen an adult starved down to 4/5 stone in weight you might realise how fragile the human body is. Any form of physicality against someone in that condition is going to result in serious injury. I would say it would be quite easy to snap someones spine or neck in those circumstances, considering the complete malnutrition and muscle wastage.




posted on Jan, 28 2008 @ 08:56 AM
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Documents Please!
I thought these Nazis were meticulous, calculating and writing down everything... just not the most ORGANIZED mass slaughter ever.

Organization requires documentation, documents are proof of circumstance, not opinions or conjecture. Show me the documents, then we will have a chance at to agree with you.

Perhaps no one can find any death lists, transportation lists, or even lists for roll call at the concentration camps. Help me see the light, show me the way...

No Documents No History!



posted on Jan, 28 2008 @ 09:07 AM
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I dont think you can deny the holocaust happened and I dont think many do. However i do think that people question the fact that it gets a lot more attention than other world attrocities out there not only in WWII but other past and current genocides. That is my beef. Ive been called a bigot and racist but the fact is the holocaust is the root of a lot of policy that is made in government to this day from the creation of Isreal to its defense and Iran and the wars and conflicts it has caused. (I happen to think the jews should get their own state) Like I ask in all my other posts if you read them i just want consistancy. Take about the holocaust but also talk about what happened to all the innocents after we left vietnam or all the Chinese that were masacred in WW2 or on and on.



posted on Jan, 28 2008 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by neformore

And how did they get in that state?



That has nothing to do with it how the mind perceives events.



I think you'll find that most people have a damn good idea when someone is trying to kill them, despite whatever spin you might choose to want to put on it.


No, I think that is what you will find. Don't be so silly, fear dominates reason during times of stress.



As for "tearing someone in half", when you've seen an adult starved down to 4/5 stone in weight you might realise how fragile the human body is. Any form of physicality against someone in that condition is going to result in serious injury. I would say it would be quite easy to snap someones spine or neck in those circumstances, considering the complete malnutrition and muscle wastage.


I think everyone should be able to see the skewed (attempted) reasoning in that - except you, of course.



posted on Jan, 28 2008 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by benign.psychosis
That has nothing to do with it how the mind perceives events.


Oh. My bad. Still, its all about context




No, I think that is what you will find. Don't be so silly, fear dominates reason during times of stress.


Actually, the "fight or flight" part of what makes us human sharpens the senses and makes people more alert and more likely to remember the danger for the next time it occurs. And to be honest, if someones treating you like an animal, chances are that their face isn't going to leave your mind any time soon.



I think everyone should be able to see the skewed (attempted) reasoning in that - except you, of course.


You think? You've obviously never seen anyone in that condition then have you? Maybe you should look at some holocaust photos. Heres an anaology for you - think trained soldier verses a 5/6 year old. because thats what we're talking about in terms of mass and body strength - if that.



posted on Jan, 28 2008 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by neformore
And how did they get in that state?


BINGO!

Every time I hear some schmuck talking about "Well, the NAZIS didn't kill them, disease / starvation / hard labor / stress killed them!" this is exactly what pops into my .?

Who put them into concentration camps? Nazis
Who refused them nutritious food? Nazis
Who kept them in unsanitary close quarters and denied medical treatment? Nazis
Who used them as slave labor? Nazis
Who utterly destroyed their lives, causing all that stress? Nazis

Arguments over the gas chambers are goddamn pointless at about this point. Every death in these camps was the fault of the Nazis, because they are the ones who built the camps, they are the ones who kidnapped people and imprisoned them in the camps, they are the ones who ignored the death and suffering in the camps.

But the #ing Nazi apologists keep tugging their forelocks and whining about how innocent and misunderstood the Nazis are, woe, oh woe.

[edit on 28-1-2008 by TheWalkingFox]



posted on Jan, 28 2008 @ 08:38 PM
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Codoh.com has a lengthy forum on this issue, though it's very one-sided. Search on YouTube.com for "Holocaust" videos. Watch several from both sides. Which provide the more logical reasoning. Those by David Cole, who has recanted and gone into hiding for some reason, point out several details that make you wonder "Did it really have happened like the US-written history books say? Are the loosers of the war really as horrific as we've charged them with?" Several people are in jail for suggesting that maybe the Jews died more from desease and less from execution. Where's the freedom of thought? See ihr.org for books, and MP3 files from Mark Weber. Think.



posted on Jan, 28 2008 @ 10:22 PM
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Originally posted by neformore

You think? You've obviously never seen anyone in that condition then have you? Maybe you should look at some holocaust photos. Heres an anaology for you - think trained soldier verses a 5/6 year old. because thats what we're talking about in terms of mass and body strength - if that.


I've seen people in that condition, and have been in a similar condition myself. It's not fun, and you have no idea what is really going on. After a while, you lose your sense of reality and you begin to hallucinate, and can't tell what is real.

Believe it or not, during one of those trainings (SERE) most of the people who were undergoing it personally signed documents that they had been involved in [ classified
] during extreme interrogation. Funny, huh?

It's basic physiology:



A hallucination occurs when environmental, emotional, or physical factors such as stress, medication, extreme fatigue, or mental illness cause the mechanism within the brain that helps to distinguish conscious perceptions from internal, memory-based perceptions to misfire. As a result, hallucinations occur during periods of consciousness. They can appear in the form of visions, voices or sounds, tactile feelings (known as haptic hallucinations), smells, or tastes.


You can keep excusing the Jewish concentraion camp detainees from basic physiology if you want, but it doesn't really help.

Oh, and I also signed the paper later on when I thought it was a menu and I was placing my order for food. Go figure.

Come on, it was a hallucination. Most of those people were out there seeing things that were not real, or seeing situations out of context.

It's that simple, and you don't have to try to explain it away like you are doing. Ripped apart..


It just shows you are not thinking, but only trying to defend against a perceived anti-Jewish agenda in an attempt to satisfy your messiah complex that the typical conspiracy theorist has.



posted on Jan, 28 2008 @ 11:59 PM
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Ten Million Jews immigrated to Germany in 1933 through 1937...wtf! look it up, google it. What the hell were they thinking, thats like running into a burning building because everyone else is doing it.
Such a large, uncontrolled and unwanted population increase just had to be managed, hence the refugee camps for illegals who crossed the borders into Germany looking for work.

But Germany was in a depression and the society couldn't assimilate so many illegal newcomers fast enough.... something had to be done, and refugee camps were the solution.

Then the war started. And the people who never should have been there all starved. Especially all those millions of poor Christians.



posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 05:02 AM
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Originally posted by doctormcauley



doctormcauleys comments about "no documents, no history" are actually a complete red herring. In fact, the Holocaust is one of the more well-documented events in world war two history. Other events of the second world war - like the build up to the bombing of Dresden, for example, or the work on atomic weaponry - has a typical wartime documentation history. That is to say, because of the nature war, it follows that a large amount of documentation is either destroyed or never made in the first place.

However, because it's quite hard to hide an extermination project like the Holocaust, it's actually relatively easy to find the sort of information that doctormacauley states does not exist.

Since you apparently need to start with the basics, doctor, you could do worse than look here for starters: LINK.

More specific contradictions of holocaust denier theories can be found here:

www.bbc.co.uk...

and here:

www.theness.com...

In my view the best resource for debunking deniers claims is the Nizkor project, whose website is here.

The biggest danger in a revisionist approach to any event in history is that it gives too much respect to conjecture simply on the basis of that conjecture being alternative, and not enough to established evidence simply because it is possible to question it. In other words, because it is possible to question the veracity of the figures given for deaths in the death camps during the holocaust, we should not trust any evidence that comes from the same source as the numbers. Because it is possible to question the reliability of an individual anecdote from a survivor, we should treat that survivor's testimony as unreliable full stop.

But where revisionism comes unstuck is that it seems to me only to be capable of questioning detail - not an unworthy aim in an interested study of any part of history, of course - but a dangerous aim when those details are portrayed as more significant than they actually are. We can and should seek as accurate a picture of what actually happened during the holocaust - to that extent it is perfectly reasonable to "question the holocaust" - but we ought not to get carried away. What doctormacauley is doing is not historical science, it is historical sensationalism, and bears little relation to any actual debate surrounding this wretched period in human history.

LW



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 07:07 AM
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You have proven my point yet again. None of those websites have photos or copies of the documents that I asked for.
However, you did post several good sources of information which will be effective in use against debunkers. Post more info please.

[edit on 31-1-2008 by doctormcauley]



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 08:24 AM
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Originally posted by doctormcauley
You have proven my point yet again. None of those websites have photos or copies of the documents that I asked for.
However, you did post several good sources of information which will be effective in use against debunkers. Post more info please.

[edit on 31-1-2008 by doctormcauley]


Why not have a go at "using" it then - rather than just stating that you can? That's how a debate is continued. All we learn from the above is that you're rather good at sounding like a smart ass.

LW



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 01:06 PM
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Israeli Nazism is a disgrace to the Jews who survived the Holocaust and are now committing similar crimes. It is a disgrace to the Christian West that killed the Jews and let the Palestinians pay the price. Last Sunday, the West commemorated the Holocaust, hushing up the memory of its victims' victims. It is a disgrace in particular to the American administration that offers Israel weapons to kill the Palestinians.

I clearly condemn the Nazis in the Israeli government and army. I equally condemn all those who support the crimes of the neo-Nazis, who constitute a minority compared to the majority of Jews who champion peace and about whom I have always written.

Truth needs no laws to support it. Truth survives re-examination. Truth survives questioning. Truth survives verification. Throughout history, from Galileo to Zundel, only lies and liars resort to the courts to enforce adherence to dogma.

Do people who think Elvis is still alive face arrest? Do people who claim to have seen Bigfoot have their lives destroyed? Do people who claim to have taken a ride in an alien spaceship languish in prisons? Only in this one area of inquiry does the mere asking of a question bring the full weight of the legal system down upon ones shoulders. Only in this one area are you commanded to believe as you are told without question, with disobedience to be severely punished.

There is nothing new about genocide. It has happened far too often throughout history. But with genocide, the surviving victims usually WANT further examination of the crime. The surviving victims WANT research. The surviving victims WANT all possible evidence unearthed. Only with the history of WW2 are the purported victims seen to fight as hard as possible the examination of the actual evidence connected to their claims.

It is nothing so much as the behavior of the defenders of the orthodoxy that casts doubt on the veracity of their claims. They act as if they have something to hide.



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 01:21 PM
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reply to post by Maverickhunter
 


Because they can, if thats what they chose unless you live in Austria, Germany, France, Romania and a few other European Countries.
Its not just against the law to Deny it either. I dont know what the official number thats claimed right now.. 12 million? Maybe different Euro country's have a different number but whatever that number is and you say that you believe that its less, thats also a crime.
Come on, give me a break.. Whatever the number, was what happened bad? sure it was.
Should it be illegal to deny or reduce the numbers? HELL NO!
I've never denied that terrible things happened to the jews BECAUSE they were jews but because of statements like ive made above, Ive been accused of being racist..



posted on Feb, 1 2008 @ 05:42 AM
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Originally posted by doctormcauley
Truth needs no laws to support it. Truth survives re-examination. Truth survives questioning. Truth survives verification. Throughout history, from Galileo to Zundel, only lies and liars resort to the courts to enforce adherence to dogma.

Do people who think Elvis is still alive face arrest? Do people who claim to have seen Bigfoot have their lives destroyed? Do people who claim to have taken a ride in an alien spaceship languish in prisons? Only in this one area of inquiry does the mere asking of a question bring the full weight of the legal system down upon ones shoulders. Only in this one area are you commanded to believe as you are told without question, with disobedience to be severely punished.


doctormacauley, I don't know where you're based, so you'll have to forgive me if I speak ignorantly, but the reality is that revisionist historians do not "languish in prisons" in the manner you suggest, do they. There are anti-denial laws in 13 countries in Europe - can you tell me how many people have been prosecuted as a result (I genuinely don't know, I'm not trying to score points)?

Who exactly has persecuted you for your beliefs or opinions? What threat of incarceration hangs over you for speaking your mind? If you can tell me you are under threat of imprisonment for stating a belief, I will enthusiastically support your right to freedom of speech despite our differences. I'm not saying your racist, anti-semitic, or anything - I couldn't care less what you are - I'm just saying you're wrong. I'm not recommending you for a prison sentence, I'm recommending you to a good library or WWII museum.

All that's asked of you on these boards, at least, is that you treat the subject matter with respect - because it's obviously a sensitive matter for a large number of people. That's not unreasonable, is it? In a previous post you said you boasted you could use the material I had posted to attack "debunkers" of your claims. I'd say that under the broad remit of showing respect to the subject - rather than boasting about how right you are, some form of theory, backed up by some kind of evidence, is more pertinent than idle threats...does that sound unfair to you?

Thanks

LW



posted on Feb, 1 2008 @ 06:25 AM
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I'm Irish and all of you Anti-Celtites aren't giving the Irish Potatoe Holocaust the respect it deserves.

Millions of people died needlessly, whilst Britain exported All of Ireland's grain, of which only 15 percent was needed to keep the Irish population from starvation.
Irish grain comprised 60 percent of the british empire's grain supply at the time of the Irish Holocaust .
Potatoes aren't a grain, they are a food source of desperation and subsistence.

Taking population growth into concern, by 1945 standards it would have been the equivalent of 9 million Irish dead, for no other reason than they were Irish.

How dare you question my "respect for the holocaust"... as if there was ONLY one!


[edit on 1-2-2008 by doctormcauley]



posted on Feb, 1 2008 @ 06:30 AM
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The problem is that there is so much obfuscation and misinformation around the subject.

People here are talking about documentation and the old 'most documented event in history' canard, but it is simply false.

The problem is that there is the Nazi holocaust, which was the result of an escalating anti semitic program in Germany, enacted for various reasons, in which large numbers of people were forcibly deported, ghettoised and used for slave labour. Thrown into the mix we also have the anti-partisan activities of the Einsatgruppen, who worked behind the lines in Eastern Europe clearing up the rear areas. These two elements of the Nazi holocaust are supported by all sorts of documentary and photographic evidence. In particular we have genuine German documentation detailing orders and so on for this.

However, this should not be confused with the Holocaust (tm) which is "an ideological representation of the Nazi holocaust" (Finkelstein) and which is preached and defended with religious fervour. The holy trinity of the Holocaust (tm) are the homicidal gas chambers, the 6 million victims and the existence of a diabolical Nazi plan to murder all the Jews of Europe. But this holy trinity is not evidenced at all convincingly.

When you challenge the latter, you are invariably provided with evidence for the former. This is because the only evidence that exists for the latter are rather dubious eyewitness statements and confessions.

The Holocaust (tm) story is a core of fact with a heap of wartime atrocity propaganda on top.



posted on Feb, 1 2008 @ 06:54 AM
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Originally posted by doctormcauley
How dare you question my "respect for the holocaust"... as if there was ONLY one!
[edit on 1-2-2008 by doctormcauley]


I didn't question your respect for the holocaust, or any holocaust. I questioned the way you expressed it.

Are you actually getting anything out of the process of "debating" this topic with me? Or are you just letting off steam?

LW



posted on Feb, 1 2008 @ 07:49 AM
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Originally posted by kenochi
The holy trinity of the Holocaust (tm) are the homicidal gas chambers, the 6 million victims and the existence of a diabolical Nazi plan to murder all the Jews of Europe. But this holy trinity is not evidenced at all convincingly.


Hmm.

Tell me why there are clearly handwritten documented orders for doors that are gas tight and screwed shut for the "showers" at the camps then?

No evidence?

Are these pictures made up then? Holocaust photos

Come on, please. There is SO much evidence.



posted on Feb, 1 2008 @ 08:26 AM
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because the camps had 'gaskammern' for delousing clothing. Gas tight doors were for these facilities.

Nobody denies that the occupied territories and camps were rife with starvation, spotted fever and typhus. A photograph of malnourished, typhoid-racked people is not evidence for gas chambers, an extermination plan or the 6 million, I'm afraid.



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