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Fatima UFO coverup... proof that aliens are associated with religion

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posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 01:20 PM
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I dont know I think the possibility of Aliens can be read about in the oldest book that mankind has in existance and that is the book of Enoch.

Read the first book of enoch. It is referenced twice in the bible, and one of those times was from Jesus himself. I say that so that you dont immediatly think bahhh that is fake. Also it was found in the dead sea scrolls.

Aliens are fallen angels, and or heavenly beings.

I have no doubt taht if they exist they have a relationship with our creator, and I would bet it is exacly as the bible and the book of enoch tell us, specifially the book of enoch.

If you havent read it you should, it was largely hidden from mankind for the past 1000 years.




posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 01:53 PM
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reply to post by irishdave
 



Hmmm, that says it all, really. If you believe Adam and Eve were literally real people then anything is possible as far as manipulation is concerned so I wouldn't need any agenda at all.

I'm actually concerned with facts as opposed to tripe, sorry.


well since you and nobody thats alive today can bear witness to the claims that Adam and Eve were not real people, i would find any conclusive opinions unfounded and an attempt to rationalize ones own beliefs.

i never stated that they were real people and your blanketed judgement of the average christian being easily manipulated is naive. Adam And Eve maybe a metaphor and i think most Christians are aware that there is more to the story.


but the empty vessel of the visitation itself allowed it to have many meanings imposed upon it which, to my mind, is more in keeping with a deeper psychological occurance that any specific religious one.


i think you are trying to distort the facts imo

the miracle that was witnessed was to prove to the people that this message was from God.

are you saying that the Lucia was not telling the truth ?

i dont believe things would have occurred in sequence like they did , if the entity knew she was lying to the people.

so i find your hypothesis on this just being a manifistation created by a mass consciousness interesting but highly imo unfounded.



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 02:17 PM
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standing by,

I don't believe in an historical Jesus, theres no records or proof.

The book of Enoch is not the oldest book in the world.

news.bbc.co.uk...



[edit on 9-8-2008 by irishdave]



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 02:24 PM
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easynow,

I'm not sure if I believe the psychological theory myself although if you are familiar with the work of Dr. Richard Strassman and his research with '___' it might be concluded that the mind itself is not limited to our current understanding.

I'm sorry if I wrongly attributed opinions to you; I am still very anxious that we not limit ourselves to having to look through a Biblical lens to understand what may be simply another form of life.
I think its blatant that religious limitations upon knowledge are simply frustrated protests against a broadening understanding which has to potential to render a doctrine or profile of a god redundant.

[edit on 9-8-2008 by irishdave]



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 02:39 PM
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reply to post by irishdave
 



no problem irishdave ,

and i thank you for your input on this and we can only find the truth in this by exploring all the possibilities. i hope i didnt come across as being on the offensive or anything.



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 02:47 PM
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easynow,

Not at all, you were polite in the face of my rudeness.

Regarding the use of religion for this message; when I was teaching my daughter to brush her teeth for the first time recently, my wife and I showed her pictures of her favorite t.v. characters holding toothbrushes in order to teach her a new skill through the images she identified with.
On a larger scale could it not be the case that whatever higher intelligence was involved (IF it was invloved!) might simply have been doing the same thing?
Catholicism was what these people knew so a natural way to get something across was to use representations of 'holy' personages. That said, again we have to ask what was the iconography before the jesuits took control of the situation, and, more importantly, what might the 'real' lesson' or message have been?
I don't mean that in a conspiritorial way, rather, a way that might have broken the small world view completely open.

I hope to finish 'Fatima Revisited' by tomorrow.


[edit on 9-8-2008 by irishdave]

[edit on 9-8-2008 by irishdave]



posted on Aug, 9 2008 @ 03:07 PM
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reply to post by irishdave
 



well it is possible that aliens were using religious representations to get a message across but.... i cant think of any motives on their part that justify misrepresenting themselves and how that would be a good thing ?

i dont know it just doesnt make sense that they would need to play games with our beliefs in order to get a point across.

i will have to think on this one for a while...

good luck on finishing your book, maybe somehow i will get to read it ?



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 03:16 AM
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posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 03:20 AM
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easynow,

'Fatima Revisited' is not my book, its the third part of the Fatima trilogy which is a collaboration between various scientists and universities to come to a fuller understanding of the incident...

www.amazon.com...=pd_sim_b_1


It's the third and final part of the most thorough examination of what happened at Fatima. i would urge you seek out the first two books if you haven't read them already. The researchers where the first academics to be allowed access to the original statements of all recorded wittnesses and as such have come to very different conclusions regarding whether or not this was a religious encounter.
The one thing we should all be able to agree on is that the original descriptions are what we should be examining, not the later Jesuit inspired statements that Lucia began to give out for years while she was in a convent.

The first 2 books are also available on Amazon...

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218356963&sr=8-1

[edit on 10-8-2008 by irishdave]

[edit on 10-8-2008 by irishdave]



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 10:30 AM
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Originally posted by easynow
well since you and nobody thats alive today can bear witness to the claims that Adam and Eve were not real people, i would find any conclusive opinions unfounded and an attempt to rationalize ones own beliefs.

However, the claims within the Bible that we can test today have been proven invariably wrong. It's not a stretch, from that perspective, not to give much credence to any of the other claims.



Adam And Eve maybe a metaphor and i think most Christians are aware that there is more to the story.

That's the problem with the Bible (and other religious books/texts/whatever), what exactly in it is literal and what is metaphorical?

When (religious) people can't possibly agree with something in it, they claim it's merely metaphorical.

It's up to each person's own interpretation or beliefs. I don't understand how some people can't see how dangerous this is.

Anyway, the UFO phenomena is already complex enough, it doesn't need the confusion of mistranslations, interpretations and 'faith' of religions.

Surely if we're ever going to understand the phenomena, I doubt it will be through religion.



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 10:30 AM
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reply to post by irishdave
 



The one thing we should all be able to agree on is that the original descriptions are what we should be examining, not the later Jesuit inspired statements that Lucia began to give out for years while she was in a convent.


ok thanks for clearing that up about the book...i thought you were writing a book on this ...lol

anyways i believe that we should look at the original descriptions also but what i disagree with is leaving out Lucia's testimony in the total sum of the investigation.

i was not there of course but the testimony that i have read, stated that the Lucia was telling her mother and father and various other people about this before the priests ever got a hold of her.

she was reporting that the Blessed Mother was appearing to her before anything was censored or converted.

my unqualified opinion is that this WAS a religious event that took place but the Jesuit Preists twisted the story so people wouldnt start screaming UFO's and Aliens paranoia that would have disrupted the religious belief system.

i also believe that these Preists did in fact manipulate Lucia to change her story about the three secrets. what the true secrets really where is anyones guess.



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 10:52 AM
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reply to post by danx
 


well hello danx, good to hear from you again


however...you fell right into the trap yourself by making absolute conclusions that rationalize your viewpoint on religious events.......


However, the claims within the Bible that we can test today have been proven invariably wrong. It's not a stretch, from that perspective, not to give much credence to any of the other claims.



so because you feel that there maybe some discrepancies in the Bible it is a justifiable reason to dismiss the entire Book ?

it maybe my viewpoint and all ...but that to me is... illogical



It's up to each person's own interpretation or beliefs. I don't understand how some people can't see how dangerous this is.


might be dangerous if viewed that way i will agree... but God gave us all the Gift of being able to make decisions and choices.


Surely if we're ever going to understand the phenomena, I doubt it will be through religion.


don't count your chickens before they hatch is my advice to you. lol

it may not be a religion that man has taken over and distorted that solves this puzzle i agree.... but the answers to the UFO/Aliens questions may be related to God and to rule it out gets you right into that trap i was talking about in the beginning of this post.....


[edit on 10-8-2008 by easynow]

[edit on 10-8-2008 by easynow]



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 11:08 AM
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Originally posted by easynow
so because you feel that there maybe some discrepancies in the Bible it is a justifiable reason to dismiss the entire Book ?
it maybe my viewpoint and all ...but that to me is... illogical

I didn't dismiss the entire book, I said it's highly probable that all the other claims as false as well, since the ones man has been able to test have been proven false.

I'm sorry that this is illogical to you, because my statement is merely based on well.. logic.



but the answers to the UFO/Aliens questions may be related to God and to rule it out gets you right into that trap i was talking about in the beginning of this post.....

You make the assumption that what's in the Bible, and/or other religious books, is the word of God. Which clearly, it isn't.

Even accepting the possibility that UFOs may be related to God, the Bible was written by men, it is not the word of God, so in all possibility, in matters related to these beings, the authors could be as wrong about them as they are about numerous other matters.



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 11:32 AM
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reply to post by danx
 



I didn't dismiss the entire book, I said it's highly probable that all the other claims as false as well, since the ones man has been able to test have been proven false.



umm..if you think all the other claims are false as well then you are dismissing the entire book your statement is an oxymoron.


I'm sorry that this is illogical to you, because my statement is merely based on well.. logic.


perception is reality and we all have our own wich means your logic is not the same as mine or anyone elses.


You make the assumption that what's in the Bible, and/or other religious books, is the word of God. Which clearly, it isn't.


clearly.....there are thoughts inspired by God in the Bible.


it is not the word of God


were you there when it was written ? how can you prove it wasnt inspired by God ? please present some evidence that the Bible was not inspired by God.













[edit on 10-8-2008 by easynow]



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 11:37 AM
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easynow,

It's interesting to look up the archived material from May 13th 1917 and the statements attributed to Lucia's father after the children first mentioned the lady in white.

"If the kids saw a woman dressed in white, who else could she be but Our Lady?" Antonio dos Santos answered.

So, from the start the seeds of who this person might be were already planted before the 'lady' said anything at all.

Lucia herself is recorded as saying "I never said it was 'Our' lady-rather, a small, pretty lady."

These doubts (which carried on until after the Oct 13th apparition) were recorded in writing by the parish priest and later printed in 'Parish Inquiry'.

Another interesting point and one that is barely commented upon is the fact that the word 'Rosary' also means capela (chapel) in Portugese, chapel in this instance having no particular Christian reference rather a broader definition meaning sacred place. So, when parish inquiry mentions that the 'Lady' said she was " the lady of the rosario' it may have another meaning: Lady from the sacred place.

The father of Francisco and Jacinta was described by his own priest as being "insane and an over-believer' and would regularly speak to the three children about Mary, Heaven and Hell.
Lucia's mother was a devout Catholic and would read to Lucia from 'Missao Abreviada' which very suspiciously is abook about...marian apparitions amongst other things.


The Viscount of Montelo firmly believed that this book was the source of Lucias visions. There is no account of Lucia seeing the Lady before the first apparition although the children regularly played 'games' pretending to be saints or angels. Maybe this is what you mean regarding her earlier visions?

[edit on 10-8-2008 by irishdave]

[edit on 10-8-2008 by irishdave]



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 11:40 AM
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Originally posted by easynow
she was reporting that the Blessed Mother was appearing to her before anything was censored or converted.
Considering that most people in Portugal are Christians, more so on rural areas like Fátima, I would not be surprised if the original interpretation from Lucia was of a religious apparition, even if that was not the case.

I think that I have read somewhere that her father was not a religious person (this was relatively close the republican revolution that ended the monarchy and that tried to end the influence of the church in Portugal), so if that is true it was most probably Lucia's interpretation.

If it was the right interpretation or not, nobody knows.

Edit:
After reading irishdave's post above mine (done while I was writing my post) I believe that I was wrong and that Lucia's father was not the one that was not religious, sorry for the confusion.

But I am sure that I have read something about lack of religion by someone, maybe the general population was less religious, I must see if I can find that reference, sorry for the confusion.

PS of the edit: I decided to left the post as it was, it may have been read by someone, so I do not want to change what I already wrote.

[edit on 10/8/2008 by ArMaP]



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 11:45 AM
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Jacintas father was more of a father to Lucia in supporting religious interpretations as was her mother.

Have you guys all read 'Heavenly Lights'? This was the only Fatima book based on the original documents up until quite recently; its essential if you guys are interested in seeing the real, unedited statements.



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 11:54 AM
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Great thread! very compelling in the variations of this story.
Of course the children assumed that what they saw was the mother mary or christ etc.. it is the only thing they could draw upon to explain what they saw.
For a long time I believed that an angel had come to me when I was a child.. I believed her to be an angel because at that time it was the only thing that I knew of that I could compare her too.. although she had no wings and made no mention of god that I can recall.. that was the word I gave her because it was the only thing I could think of to explain her.

Same thing is the case here I believe as well. They explained in the only way they knew how.



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 12:00 PM
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Originally posted by irishdave
Another interesting point and one that is barely commented upon is the fact that the word 'Rosary' also means capela (chapel) in Portugese, chapel in this instance having no particular Christian reference rather a broader definition meaning sacred place.
Where did you got that information?

Rosário means just that, rosary. It may have different interpretation, but they are all related to rosaries, like when people are in a single line, that may be called a rosary of people because it looks like a rosary.



posted on Aug, 10 2008 @ 12:00 PM
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reply to post by irishdave
 



well the only thing i can say really is that i find it quite odd that if the children were playing games and pretending to be Saints and Angels and then this apparition appeared to them you would think there would have to be some connection there.

two possibility' s are ...

the BVM knew that these children were good candidates to appear to because of their clean spirit and positive beliefs and actions.

or

Aliens could read their thoughts and also knew that they were good candidates to use as their tool for whatever agenda they had.

it is odd that the lady wouldnt reveal her true identity till later but i believe that the first possibility that i mentioned above is the reason that Lucia was contacted and i would have to think that with all that considered and taken into account...it would be reasons to justify believing that this was in Fact the Blessed Virgin Mary.



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