Fatima UFO coverup... proof that aliens are associated with religion

reply to post by NephraTari


thanks for your input it is much appreciated,

and yes it is a compelling case i agree ,

Same thing is the case here I believe as well. They explained in the only way they knew how.

i dont think you could compare that imo...your thinking is correct that someone could be influenced by their prior beliefs but the entity did finally reveal her identity and there was a miracle witnessed by thousands to prove that this was a message from God.



[edit on 10-8-2008 by easynow]

reply to post by ArMaP


thanks ArMaP for your input,

But I am sure that I have read something about lack of religion by someone, maybe the general population was less religious, I must see if I can find that reference, sorry for the confusion.

i believe i read that there was some sort of decline in numbers of Christians at that time and people were losing their faith.

i would have to reread some things to quote it but i also believe that this was one of the reasons that this event took place.

Easy now,

Unfortunatley its my daughters bedtime and I'll have to leave the thread for the night but with regard to the lady being the Virgin Mary I feel its imperitive to not lose sight of her physical appearance as described by the children intially and not Lucias later descriptions; she had no resemblence to any previous mary figure. But I'm rushing and have to go now.

Re The meaning of the rosary to the other poster...rosario also means chapel, you can check it out although make sure you use an actual European definition as was the case in fatima.

reply to post by irishdave


I am Portuguese, all my definitions are European, no possibility of mistakes there.

reply to post by danx

it is not the word of God

were you there when it was written ? how can you prove it wasnt inspired by God ? please present some evidence that the Bible was not inspired by God


still waiting for your evidence that supports your opinions.

reply to post by irishdave

Originally posted by irishdave
Another interesting point and one that is barely commented upon is the fact that the word 'Rosary' also means capela (chapel) in Portugese, chapel in this instance having no particular Christian reference rather a broader definition meaning sacred place.

Re The meaning of the rosary to the other poster...rosario also means chapel, you can check it out although make sure you use an actual European definition as was the case in fatima.

personaly i dont have the language skills to make a declaration on translating the word Rosario but this wikipedia article does say this...

because the children related that the Lady in the apparition specifically identified Herself as "the Lady of the Rosary." It is also common to see a combination of these titles, i.e., Our Lady of the Rosary of Fátima (Portuguese: ''Nossa Senhora do Rosário de Fátima'').

en.wikipedia.org...
Our Lady of Fátima - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i think you would have to address ArMaPs response to you because i believe he is going to be the best one on ATS to resolve this misunderstanding of this word.

this was posted by ArMaP...

Rosário means just that, rosary. It may have different interpretation, but they are all related to rosaries, like when people are in a single line, that may be called a rosary of people because it looks like a rosary.

I am Portuguese, all my definitions are European, no possibility of mistakes there.

i am willing to bet he is right about the definition.


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I feel its imperitive to not lose sight of her physical appearance as described by the children intially and not Lucias later descriptions; she had no resemblence to any previous mary figure.

can you show me where it says that Lucia's descriptions changed ?

i agree that it is important to keep in mind the original descriptions and i know this wikpedia isnt the best resouce but it does state what she saw initially ...

Lúcia described seeing the lady as "brighter than the sun, shedding rays of light clearer and stronger than a crystal ball filled with the most sparkling water and pierced by the burning rays of the sun.

en.wikipedia.org...
Our Lady of Fátima - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



i find the evidence for me , leaning towards that this was a message from God.

#1- the entity said she was the lady of the rosary and asked the children to pray the rosary.

#2-miracle of the sun was a miracle. many scientists have different speculations on the cause... but they will admit to the fact that this event happened at the time predicted

#3-the three secrets revealed to Lucia had religious messages.

Many years after the events in question, Stanley L. Jaki, a professor of physics at Seton Hall University, New Jersey, Benedictine priest and author of a number of books reconciling science and Catholicism, proposed a unique theory about the supposed miracle. Jaki believes that the event was natural and meteorological in nature, but that the fact the event occurred at the exact time predicted was a miracle.

en.wikipedia.org...
The Miracle of the Sun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


there is no way i could believe that this was a mass halucination by everyone. people that werent even at the event could see the miracle of the sun.

the lack of any known scientific causative factor make a mass hallucination unlikely.[26] That the activity of the sun was reported as visible by those up to 18 kilometers away,

[edit on 10-8-2008 by easynow]

[edit on 10-8-2008 by easynow]

reply to post by irishdave


the book that you are reading does make a strong case that in fact this was Aliens that orchestrated this...i am willing to admit.

At Fatima in 1957, Father Anibal Coelho, the Postmaster General and others saw a UFO at Fatima. They couldn’t make out the shape of the object they saw in the sky for it moved about at great speed. It didn’t make any sound nor did it emit light. The witnesses are certain that it was not an airplane or a shooting star.

If it was a spaceship why didn’t everybody see it? But alien encounters and even alien abduction stories are full of similar problems. Not everybody is able to see the spaceships. The silver disc couldn’t possibly have any religious significance. It is a sign from aliens if anything.

www.miraclesceptic.com...
Super-Miracle Fatima Debunked


the question is... why would Aliens do this ?

Hi,

I'm sorry I couldn't get back here last night. Heres a dictionary translation of Rosario to Chapel. Please be aware that if we are to make any progress at all with this subject we should be prepared to go past the simplistic. Rosario in the masuline translation IS chapel.

encarta.msn.com...

I also checked further and found that the population in Fatima were by and large illiterate so with that comes a major possibility of manipulation, also, pockets of the surrounding population spoke a variation of Portuegese-Spanish and in northern Portuguese areas another common crossover was French. So, i checked out the translation within the Southern French variants and got...chapel! It has a translation in all Latin areas.

www.woxikon.com...


So, lets move on from this petty distraction, please.


Easynow,

I can't take anything that Wiki says about Fatima seriously as every attempt by Fernandes and modern scholars to update the page has been thwarted by what must be an army of Catholic devotees. They don't include ANY documented translations or recordings at all ONLY later approved doctrine. There is no mention of any UFO possibility and, I dare you to try this yourself, even attempting to update, bring to attention blatantly ignored facts, results in a page re-edit at a speed you would not believe.

Please, for the sake of factual accuracy lets not concern ourselves with Wiki or youtube, rather go to the source documents themselves since they have been painstakingly translated and compiled into English editions and there is no excuse to keep regurgitating the same propaganda.

'Heavenly Lights' is the book that includes analysis by modern experts AND includes the ORIGINAL statements, this should be any interested persons first stop in this incredible journey.


[edit on 11-8-2008 by irishdave]

[edit on 11-8-2008 by irishdave]

[edit on 11-8-2008 by irishdave]

[edit on 11-8-2008 by irishdave]

Originally posted by easynow
reply to post by NephraTari

 

thanks for your input it is much appreciated,

and yes it is a compelling case i agree ,

Same thing is the case here I believe as well. They explained in the only way they knew how.

i dont think you could compare that imo...your thinking is correct that someone could be influenced by their prior beliefs but the entity did finally reveal her identity and there was a miracle witnessed by thousands to prove that this was a message from God.

[edit on 10-8-2008 by easynow]

How do you account for the fact that the 'being' also said on one of the days of apparition that World War I would end that day and it didn't?

We have to conclude that either, Lucia lied or the being lied. If Lucia lied, well, it makes a lot of what we're discussing redundant, if the being lied then it makes the situation even stranger. Of course ultimately we have to conclude that the being didn't know which renders the religious aspect or idea a little less likely at least.

easynow,

I'm sorry, I've just noticed your question about the physical appearance of the being. I presumed this was an obvious part of the mystery for anyone interested but here's some basic characteristics of the initial apparition. Incidentally, I also want to point out to you that you should be aware that before 1941 there was only one secret with one part, the second and third came later when Lucia was in a convent...strangely enough.

On October 11th 1917, Lucia described the 'lady as being one metre tall, about 12-15 years old, with black eyes and wearing checkered clothing and "was unlike ANY image of Our Lady or any other saints that they had seen up to then."

Two years later, as documented by Gilberto Fernandes dos Santos, she was "A very pretty lady, dressed in blinding white from neck to feet."

NOW...initially, Lucias description was this..."her skirt did NOT descend to her feet."

Later, in an interview with the editor of 'O Mensageiro', Lucia states...
"The dress was all white. The skirt fell to her ankles and she had on white stockings."
This also contradicts Lucia's assertions later that the lady was barefoot.

Lucia initially states he 'Lady' never performed the signs of the cross, and her mouth was always immobile. The only time she moved her hands was to manipulate the 'ball' she carried.
Initially, remember also, the eyes of the 'lady' were completely black.

After the seers were interviewed by Gilberto dos Santos an image of the 'lady' was commissioned for the House of Fanzeres, in Braga. The artist who created this was J. Thedim who was inspired by the image of Our Lady of Lapa, and THIS is the image which is known from the sanctuary at Cova da Iria. With Lucia's blessing the 'lady' was now tall, blue eyed and dressed in the vestments associated with previously adored iconography.
Interestingly, the glass ball which Lucia had referred to in the course of the 1917 apparitions now became a heart, pierced with the thorns that represented sin. The distortion of the initial being was complete at this point and tranformed into a known and popular icon.

Easynow,
I'm interested in how much you have read about the Fatima incident and which books have influenced your current perception and opinion about the claims of the 'seers'. I'm slightly concerned that the thread is stagnating around mythology and not the actual facts which are readily available for anybody who wants to take the time to read them. I would also be interested in reading the books that have led you to your opinions.



[edit on 11-8-2008 by irishdave]

reply to post by irishdave


thanks for your reply,

i cant comment on anything right now as i am off to the dentists and might not be back till later tonight . ouch

i would like you to tell me what you think happened that day.

was it a message from God ?

or Satan playing a trick ?

mass hallucination ?

or do you believe it was Aliens doing this ? and why would they do this. what motive could there be ????


dont want to pin you down on a choice but to not try and narrow the field of choices will never get us anywhere. be back later

be back later...thanks

Good luck at the dentists, my friend!

To be honest, I don't know what to think about Fatima. Last night I was studying a recent report by Dr. Frank McGillion which speculates on Geomagnetic cause, ie- electromagnetic emissions from a region on a known fault line, tectonic strain-related emissions which might somehow correlate the geophysical with the temporal lobe.
It has been proven to occur on a small scale in lab conditions but I'm not sure how it might produce the object or disc in the photos.

Whats very interesting to me, and often over looked, is the fact that the Fatima apparitions were predicted in the Portuguese press months before they took place. THAT is just as much a mystery in my eyes.

Lisbons main newspaper 'Diario de Noticias' printed an article on March 10th and on May 13th 'Jornal de Noticias' and 'Liberdade' announced in a privately bought advert 'Dear Readers: On the 13th of this month, an event will occur...that will strongly impress all of the world.'

I think you will find the next part interesting, easynow.
One of the adverts was paid for by Carlos Calderon, a famous Lisbon trance medium who says he recieved the message through automatic writing.

A facsimile of the original 'automatic writing' reads the following...

Judge ye not. He who would judge you would not be pleased with your prejudice. Have ye faith and be ye patient. It is not our custom to predict the future. The mystery of the future is impenetrable, though at times God permits a corner of the veil to be lifted over that which it covers. Have ye confidence in our prophecy. The day of May 13th will be one of great happiness for the good souls of the world. Have ye faith and be ye good. Ego Sum Charitas ("I am love"). Always at your side shall ye have your friends, who will guide your steps and who will assist ye in your work. The brilliant light of the morning star will illuminate the path.
-Stella Matutina.

Pretty weird. The mixture of Portuguese and Latin is also strange if it's a message from from 'spirits' or 'Our Lady' (Stella Matutina' means 'morning star.)
Also, why would 'Our Lady' use a method of communication that is denounced by the church (automatic writing and mediumship).

Another printed announcement can be viewed in a copy of 'Diario de Noticias' from march 10th 1917. It appears on page 4, column 13, under the heading '135917' (the date of the first apparition was 13/05/1917).

So, psychics predicting the events is another twist in the orthodox perception of Fatima but also, ironically, probably has more existing documentation supporting their claims than any other group. It also raises the question of whether the whole event could have been an experiment in hypnosis and a large scale hoax.
Either way, to ignore this aspect (people having predicted the apparitions) is to omit a very important part of the event.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by irishdave]

[edit on 11-8-2008 by irishdave]

I had an answer to your post already written when the browser (Opera) probably decided that 19 tabs were too many tabs and had an heart attack.

Originally posted by irishdave
Heres a dictionary translation of Rosario to Chapel. Please be aware that if we are to make any progress at all with this subject we should be prepared to go past the simplistic. Rosario in the masuline translation IS chapel.

encarta.msn.com...

Going past the the simplistic does not mean accept what is wrong, and that definition is completely wrong.

First of all, Portuguese is not the same as Spanish, although we have some words in common (we have a common past, but we have been separated for 865 years, not counting the 60 years of Spanish domination because of the lack of a Portuguese heir to the throne in the 16th and 17th centuries), the closest to Portuguese is not Castillian (what we commonly call Spanish) but Galician, so a definition from a Spanish-English dictionary will not explain it as it should.

Rosário (with an acute 'a') does not mean chapel (capela). It means rosary, and it may be used in things that look like a rosary, like a machine to take water out of mines (those machines that have something like a conveyor belt with buckets, I hope you understand). The only other use of that word is as a woman name.

I also checked further and found that the population in Fatima were by and large illiterate so with that comes a major possibility of manipulation, also, pockets of the surrounding population spoke a variation of Portuegese-Spanish and, strangely enough, French.

That is not only strange, is completely wrong, where did you got that information from?

There is no Portuguese-Spanish variation in that area, the west-central area of Portugal is where the spoken Portuguese language is most close to the official language, no strange dialects like in the north or south of the country, no mixed Castillian as happens in areas near the border.

French is completely out of the question, I have never seen or heard about a French language influence in some areas of Portugal.

Also, I visited Fátima when I was young and I know people from that area, they speak "normal" Portuguese, without any accent.

So, i checked out the translation within the Southern French variants and got...chapel!

www.woxikon.com...

And, apparently, you were not able to interpret the results...

Read what it says: rosário has one meaning


Where does it say "chapel" in that page? The French translation is "chapelet" or "rosaire", and if you used those words on that page you would see that the meaning of "chapelet" (was this word that made think of "chapel"?) is... rosary. D)

So, lets move on from this petty distraction, please.

Gladly, but if you want to base anything on the meaning of any Portuguese word at least get it right, using a wrong word to try to prove something (or base some theory on a wrong translation or meaning of the word) is not a petty distraction.

LOL, Capela and rosario share the SAME meaning in the Portuguese language as they do in Spanish and French...LOL, do some groundwork and look it up, lol.
Etymologically, 'chapelle' (or Chapel) is nothing more than a grouping of flowers; 'rosary' and 'chapel' are synonyms.

Another interesting aside to this particular utterance of 'the Lady' is the following four designations...
capela[chapel] rosario[rosary] terco[rosary] and arco de flores de roda[flower wreath] all could concievably represent the same symbol, a circle with a cross connected at the bottom, which is the symbol of the morning star and is also the scientific representation of the female chromosome.
Could it be that this is what the 'Lady' was trying to convey to Lucia? It still leaves many questions, most obviously, why appear to an illiterate girl unused to communicating in any great depth in the first place.

Another interesting aspect, though probably far fetched is that Quetzalcoatl was also known as the morning star and also descended from the sky.


[edit on 11-8-2008 by irishdave]

Regarding French as a spoken language in Portugal it has stayed roughly at 20-25% over the last century. Currently, according to the last census it is at 24%.

wiki.answers.com...

Originally posted by irishdave
LOL, Capela and rosario share the SAME meaning in the Portuguese language as they do in Spanish and French...LOL, do some groundwork and look it up, lol.

I am glad you know so much Portuguese, that means we can change this discussion to Portuguese, right?

Being Portuguese, it's funny that you tell me to do some groundwork. I know my own language, I have been speaking it for 45 years.

But if you do not believe me, I will get a Portuguese dictionary to try to explain it better.

Rosário

Translation:
Rosary, m.s. fifteen sets of a our-father and ten hail-Marys, each of which a small meditation on the most important steps in the life of Christ and Our Lady is made; object made by fifteen series of ten separate beads by a larger bead, strung up in a necklace, by which the prayers that make up the rosary are counted and ordered; machine to extract water from mines; (fig.) group of objects in the same way as the beads of a rosary; series; threaded; não são contas do teu ~: you do not have anything with it, it does not concerns you. From the Latin rosariu-, «from rose»).

Capela

Translation:
small church, chapel; sanctuary; each side of a church in which there is an altar; group of singers or musicians attached to a sanctuary; garland of flowers or leaves; roof of the oven; shop for knick-knacks; (reg.) annual payment for services rendered to the parish priest. From the low Latin capella-, diminutive of cappa-, «small cape» and, later, «oratory»).

The confusion may come from this. Although a "capela" may be a flower garland and "rosário" comes from rose, there is no connection between "capela" and "rosário" in Portuguese, they are never used (not even in the first part of the 20th century) to mean the same thing.

To finish...
terço

Translation:
each of the three parts in which a whole was divided, the third part of a rosary; part of the sword closer to the wrist, which is the third part of its length; infantry unit of Portuguese and Spanish armies of the XVI and XVII, corresponding to present day regiment, the middle of a wicker; third part (an inheritance); one. frac. a third part; adj. related to the Third Order (St. Francis). See terso, (From the Latin tertiu-, «third»)

Etymologically, 'chapelle' (or Chapel) is nothing more than a grouping of flowers; 'rosary' and 'chapel' are synonyms.

As you can see, in Portuguese, "rosário" and "capela" are not synonyms, but if you still do not believe the dictionary's definition try to find another person who reallyspeaks Portuguese and ask him/her.

capela[chapel] rosario[rosary] terco[rosary] and arco de flores de roda[flower wreath] all could concievably represent the same symbol, a circle with a cross connected at the bottom, which is the symbol of the morning star and is also the scientific representation of the female chromosome.

No, "rosário" has nothing to do with flower wreath, and we call those "coroa de flores", not "arco de flores de roda", at least I have never heard or read that expression before seeing your post, so if some of those things represent the same symbol they will be only "capela" and "coroa de flores".

If you want to see it with your own eyes, do a Google search. In fact, I have done it for you, here they are, two image searches.
1 - Arco de flores
2 - Coroa de flores

"arco de flores de roda" gives no results, we do not use that expression.

To complement this idea, here you have more Google searches.
1 - Capela
2 - Rosário

I thought of adding a search for "terço", but the results included some images that should not appear on a family site like ATS, you try it at your own risk.

reply to post by irishdave

That link also says that we speak English, and as you can see by my example that is true.

Nous parlons Français aussi, come tu peut voir.

También hablamos Español, como puedes ver.

Do you know why do we speak those languages? Because we learn them at school. English started to be taught officially in Portuguese schools around 1976, if my memory is not yet failing. As it was one more thing to study and it was only for those who wanted it, I declined the opportunity and so the only foreign language that I learnt in school was French, the only language that was taught in Portuguese schools before that date.

My sister even learnt German (only two years, not enough to speak fluently, according to her and to my father, who learnt German in a commercial school in the 60s) some years after.

French as a language used in everyday conversation was never used, even Napoleon could not conquer Portugal.

First of all, thank you for the effort and time you have taken to reply to me.

I, having read your linked definitions, however, feel that I can stand by the statement I made (which, incidentally, should be noted as being purely in the context of the Fatima investigation and was originally put forward by Professor Xavier Coutinho in his work 'La Salette, A marian Message from the 19th Century'). The point I was making and indeed feel is still supported is that the definitions or words can represent the same thing, which, based on Lucia's attempts to convey may have been the chapel-rosary-morning star symbol. You yourself have already, in a previous post, mentioned the fact that the words could indicate the same shaped thing.
Within your argument you mention that I am confusing 'rose'-'rosario' for the capel; I'm not, I'm purely considering the shape and symbol.
Please consider that the 'Lady' never moved her lips when communicating to the 'seers' so the form of communication used may have been imagery (IF we believe the seers in the first place.).
This is what I take Professor Coutinho to mean and I believe that although it's yet another tangent in which to take the Fatima experience, the language of an illiterate girl filtered through priests could certainly have resulted in this miscommunication (Possibly deliberately so.)

As for the French language in Portugal, I consider your objection to be similar to those in my country who argue over Irish, English and nationalism even though trade and immigration have thrown up variations throughout the years. Again, my point was purely to show how words may change when they transform from image, spoken and written formand how the written word can throw up confusing similarities; it was not meant to be the crux of my point and, indeed, has distracted somewhat from what I feel are much more important recently translated statements. Again, I stand by my point and consider it wholly relevant in the context of this incident.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by irishdave]

Originally posted by irishdave
You yourself have already, in a previous post, mentioned the fact that the words could indicate the same shaped thing.

Are you talking about "rosário"? That is the word that I remember that may mean a different thing but that looks like a rosary, a line of objects.

Within your argument you mention that I am confusing 'rose'-'rosario' for the capel; I'm not, I'm purely considering the shape and symbol.

I don't see how the shape of a rosary can be considered the same as that of a chapel.

Or am I confusing things even more? It has happened before.

Please consider that the 'Lady' never moved her lips when communicating to the 'seers' so the form of communication used may have been imagery (IF we believe the seers in the first place.).

I had the idea that Lucia could hear the 'Lady'.

This is what I take Professor Coutinho to mean and I believe that although it's yet another tangent in which to take the Fatima experience, the language of an illiterate girl filtered through priests could certainly have resulted in this miscommunication (Possibly deliberately so.)

I confess that I have never heard about Professor Coutinho, but I am not a great follower of Fátima in the usual ways, religious or UFOlogic, just as an unexplained event, so it is not surprising that I do not know him.

I know Lucia said she could 'hear' the 'lady' but considering the laws of physics (which applied to those around her) we can safely assume that sound, in the usual sense, ie-vibrations against the ear-drum, was not taking place, yes?
The human brain has specific function in relation to the connection of nerve impulses from the ear to the centres that deal with hearing; if you argue that it was telepathy, then, my friend, we are already in the realm of believing and, therefore, not investigating. Whatever communication Lucia recieved it was not sound as we conventionally know it, therefore a different part of her brain was responsible for its translation into how she percieved it; she described what appeared in her mind, once she tried to verbalise this message the church was there to interpret.

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