Could Bob Lazar be who he says he is?

Originally posted by Topcat14



Somehow I think 10 years ago you would have been saying there is no such thing as Element 115, or 600 years ago saying the world is flat and the earth is the center of the universe

I have read a 1968 paper on element 115 and other heavy elements that were known to be theoretically possible at the time. I think mention of the likely existence of 115 predates that by several years too. We can generally predict the properties of elements based on their periodic relationship to members of the same group of elements, and other factors. That's not to say that we can predict all of the properties 100% correctly, nor those of it's isotopes.

[edit on 1/27/2008 by TheAvenger]

reply to post by MajesticTwelve


Nice avatar Majestic12. I like my sport model better than yours.

I found a great Top Hat UFO pic.
Jello Molds are hard to find.

Originally posted by DogHead
reply to post by Topcat14

 

You sound very certain of things. If you are, in a situation with so many unknowns, then you are talking about your religion in a thread about science. We will never convince you of anything, because we are adducing facts and rational analysis and you are reciting articles of faith.

The example of scientists being conservative in the face of new theories is well known. Atiyah in fact wrote a whole thesis on science turning into a religious faith rather than a rational system. That overstates the case. Science requires us to be open-minded and conservative with respect to information. In fact being a detective requires the same thing. Being a PARENT requires the same thing. It's basic to the human condition to both ask questions with an open mind- and at the same time be skeptical enough not to pay good money or waste valuable time on every bill of sale for the Brooklyn Bridge.

No matter how much we may want a thing to be true, if the facts are against it- not the beliefs, not the hazy just over the hill anecdotes, the facts- then the thing is NOT true.

Fiction leaves no paper trail. Con men who know this try and create a paper trail. And then we have them cold because their fake papers- MJ 12, Majic labels on pay slips, whatever- condemn them.

Not certain at all, no preconception of who is right and who is wrong. I was just trying to keep an open mind and ask questions instead of the non stop character assassination I saw in this thread. I saw some consistencies in what Lazar was saying and just because he was mixed up with a whore house or went bankrupt didn’t mean he was a liar to me. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and let every person decide for themselves what they think. Some have been very good in answering questions others have nothing to say and go into attacking the messenger, or worse yet passing off their opinion as a fact




[edit on 27-1-2008 by Topcat14]

[edit on 27-1-2008 by Topcat14]

reply to post by Topcat14



It's not that we're attacking the messenger. It is in fact his message we're attacking. He has consistently proven erroneous in his ability to describe basic processes of that take place in accelerators. If anything he was a janitor at one of these facilities. Maybe a cook. But certainly not a physicist. He's talked himself out of that field. Look, some debunkers are there only to create disinformation. But some people do this by telling others what they want to hear. Lear and Lazar do just that.

Originally posted by MajesticTwelve
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

Dont you have anything other to do than debunk lazar in every thread on this forum?

Well, yes. I have a job to do, and a family to take care of. The usual. I also write music that can be found at an eponymous web site. However, as the hobbies go... In my Universe, Lazar is a liar, and a saboteur of research in the field of minimal information about the unknown. He pollutes and stalls our inquest into the realm of extraterrestrials, UFOs and what not. He's a fake, an impostor and a traitor. He's betrayed everybody that's half serious about finding FACTS about the alien presence on planet Earth. As such, he earned deep disdain and resentment from my humble person.

As we used to say, I ain't gonna take a dump in the same potato field that he does. Amen.



[edit on 27-1-2008 by buddhasystem]

Originally posted by Topcat14
That’s not necessarily true, heavy elements are thought to form in super massive stars, Stars 60 to 90 times more massive than our sun/quote]

Bottom line is we are still only guessing... science theory and fact is changing faster these days than I change my socks

And every time there is a new scientific 'fact' the skeptics will say "Well sure we told you so all along"

Originally posted by SantaClausWHO are the people starring him? They certainly don't respond to the thread! Or I would see more people employing his ideals.

LOL they were at the same party that Bob showed up at... perhaps you should have stopped by to meet them in person... But most of these people do not have endless hours to hang around ATS... something most skeptics seem not to grasp... they are involved in the stuff that others only talk about...

Bob is really quite a character... you oughta see the home movies

Originally posted by projectvxn
"Those in the know, know and those who don't, don't" is just totally against what I believe most people here are after. Which is the truth.

Personally I believe the very few of those skeptical of Bob Lazar are here for the truth..

There is one set of circumstances that would PREVENT Bob from giving any more details, and even prevent him from appearing on ATS..

What might that be you ask?

Simple his new agreement with his current employers...

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by projectvxn
Lear just talks out of his ass alot of the time.

Well I can assure you that everytime I have heard him speak the words came out of his mouth...

The thing that gets me is that every one of his (and Bob's) detractors in here are GUILTY of exactly the same thing you all accuse John of... you constatntly make statements about a persons character etc when you have never met these people and only have other websites say so on what is true and what is not.

Some stuff I have seen posted here in this thread is downright slander... there is no nice way to say it... I have seen accusations of killing people without the slightest proof and these posters get away with that. Personally I am surprised the Mods have allowed that... seems to me making statements like that without proof are far worse that breaking the T&C here and certainly would have me calling my lawyer...

I know John has been around longer and has a hardened shell. but is this really what we want to see here? These obvious personal vendettas?

You all claim John should provide proof... well in another thread here he has shown the proof of what he did in the CIA and has a Congressional letter just last year validating that service and allowing him to talk about it... yet all you "debunkers" shoot from the hip without the least bit of evidence except what you read on some dubious website somewhere.

Seems you are asking for a double standard here


As John said Bob Lazar is currently in the employ of Los Alamos Labs... He showed me his new ID badge (rather reluctantly as I am only a recent acquaintance) If he is not telling the truth, then why was he hired back?

And considering his "history" why would they hire him back? I can think of one reason they might overlook his past 'discretions'

He has a skill that they need...

And the things he says are extremely inconsistent. I don't think Lear and Lazar are bad human beings. I think they're profiteers in one way or another.

I assume that you are prepared to back up this 'profiteering' statement with facts?

[edit on 28-1-2008 by zorgon]

reply to post by zorgon


Bob's current employment is not in question here. Lear's past service is not in question here. I highly respect Lear for his service to this country. But being a contract pilot doesn't provide high enough clearance to know all the things he claims to know. And why did Lear show you Bob's badge? And why does Lear have Bob's badge? If you want proof of Lear talking up his BS, pay attention to the language he uses in his posts. Lear is no dummy, but he talks himself in to precarious situations that make him look pretty damned silly.

I have never slandered Bob or John and never would. I don't make stuff up I go on what THEY SAY and work my way up. But at the same time I'm not here to debunk I'm here to find evidence. Bob and John don't provide any, they just talk and talk and talk and expect people not to analyze the things they say. I personally think that sort of thing hurts the process of fact finding and rational explanation of evidence provided. They do not produce a SINGLE shred of evidence. I don't want proof. I know that these things are so extremely compartmentalized that coming up with solid proof would be a miracle of divine intervention. And I'm not asking for it. I'm only asking for evidence that supports something they say. And I have yet to see that.

Originally posted by projectvxn
And why did Lear show you Bob's badge? And why does Lear have Bob's badge?

It would be helpful if you stopped long enough in your 'crudsade' to actually pay attention... BOB showed John his badge.... BOB showed ME his Badge John does not have BOB's badge, BOB has BOB's Badge... is that clear yet?

BOB was here in Las Vegas at a party for John at John's House that had many other interesting guests like Ron Blackburn from Lockheed Martin... to name one..

And Bob's current reemployment at Los Alamos is most definitely an important consideration and VERY relevant

But at the same time I'm not here to debunk I'm here to find evidence. Bob and John don't provide any,

So what is it your looking for? And are you REALLY LOOKING? I started here a little over a year ago and did not believe much of what John said... but from his posts I used the information to do my own research... and I have since found a lot of what he says to be true... and at the same time have amassed an amazing number of contacts.... even John has been surprised at some of the names and how quickly this happened...

But these people are not likely to post ANYTHING here... no matter what it may be... all they need to do is read a few threads like this and they won't bother

If you truly wanted the truth... I will give you the benefit of the doubt on this... tell me what steps you personally have taken to seek out this truth" Who have you phoned or written to to ask questions? How many FOIA requests have you personally filed? You may have for all I know... but I have doubts as I do not see you either sharing this info you have collected nor presenting it for discussion...

If you were a true seeker of the truth, you would be spending many sleepless nights pouring trough reams of government documents looking for answers

Yet all I see is you here throwing stones along with the rest of the gauntlet




[edit on 28-1-2008 by zorgon]

Hello.
My first post on this forum ever so be patient with me on this.

Could Bob Lazar be who he says he is?
Difficult to answer it seems.

Anyways this post is about possibilites, and doing some clearheaded thinking.
If you consider the possibilites in his claims they might be true.
If you consider the possibilites about the U.S Gov. and what kind of power they have over the rest of the world, ie invading Iraq without any 'proof' of the claims of weapons of massdestruction.
Only protests against this action was litteral ones.
Then what kind of power do they have in their own nation?
Is there a possibility that they actually could erase peoples backgrounds?
Is there anything they wouldn't do to discredit those who leak information like Bob Lazar did?

What if he was a tool to discredit the entire UFO community?
What if he used that against them, ie showing lacking knowledge in physics?

There are many 'what if's' to most UFO stories.
I'm not saying i belive in Bob Lazar's story, sometimes the bigger picture needs to included, as in many cases it is excluded.

So for the other debunkers out there What would the loss be for the government if there is any truth to the UFO stories, how much would UFO community gain?
What would the government do to protect itself?
That is the big picture, the UFO stories in themself in my belief are only a small part of it.

Have a Nice Day.

reply to post by zorgon


If you really must know, I have written several letters to Senator Harry Reid D-NV I live in Reno formerly Las Vegas of 13 years. So I write to my constituents. I have filed 1 FOIA request from DOD involving secret propulsion systems and there specs and have gotten NO replies. I found out about these systems through the Canadian Defense Ministry whom have only passive knowledge of secret US propulsion systems at best. My requests were, of course, denied. Most of the FOIA docs I have found have been through other sites cutting a huge amount of time from my research. And yes I do stay up all night doing research, on many nights, but I also have a family to look after so I limit how much time I spend on these issues.

I have not posted any info on here because I currently don't have ALL the info I need to present a decent case. After 8 or so years of doing research I have found much evidence supporting my case, but the case is not yet built. So you'll have to show a bit of patience with me on that note.

My research is entirely built on the extraterrestrial origin of UFOs. Not on the origin of mysterious conspiracies. I know the US is keeping this stuff secret, that's no conspiracy, that's a fact. Alot of my findings have been mirrored by many individuals and organizations involved in the issue. John and Bob have provided a basis for my beginnings, but there are a number of inconsistencies in their testimonies. And it may very well have to do with the extreme compartmentalization of these projects, or they were fed bad info(These things are known to happen). And on that point they get the benefit of the doubt. Bob is an interesting case study for one who has been fed bad info. And it's not surprising because Bob was pretty much the first to blow the whistle on Area 51. What gets me the most about Bob is his record. I cannot find a damned single paper that he has published in a physics journal. Which is suspect. If you know where I can find these papers please point me in the right direction.

As for Lear's involvement. I find it highly suspect that his involvement with the intelligence community was any more in depth than flying aircraft for the CIA during Vietnam. I could be wrong. I'm not in the intelligence community, but I know a few who are. It might have been that the people I do know are feeding me alot of BS, however the highly compartmentalized nature of CTS projects is what makes a few of his claims suspect. Which in turn casts a lot of doubt on his statements and claims. I am VERY open to the idea that I am wrong in my assessment of their accuracy and honesty. And I honestly hope that I am. I just want more evidence and less talk, about "Those in the know". Because that sort of thing isn't helpful. I am fully aware that one might find it difficult to provide such evidence. But I have seen no effort made. I go through alot of Lear's posts. I have found some great info and have tracked it...Only to be deterred by a wall of lacking information.

Look, I am willing to admit that my assessment of these two is completely wrong. But I need more to go on that what they have simply said. And if you're willing and capable of helping in this endeavor then I would be eternally grateful. But please don't ask me to believe in anything anyone simply says. I'm an intelligent guy, and I require SOME evidence that I might use to corroborate their statements. I must say that when I first heard Lazar's claims I was very compelled to believe every word he said...Until he started talking about Element 115 and the creation of two anti-protons as a result of proton bombardments...Which makes little sense to me...But at the same time it could be the case that this did, in fact, happen. We don't know what kind of technology was involved here. A run of the mill cyclotron certainly wouldn't produce this effect. CERN has an accelerator that is rumored to have the capacity to destroy the universe(I'm sure that's bogus). And we could probably get those effects once the damned thing is fully operational(Not sure when that's going to be). I'm just saying that there are holes in this. And they are a legitimate base of argument, and stand in stark contrast to his testimony, as far a modern, mainstream physics are concerned.

Mind you I did say mainstream physics. I don't claim to be an authority on this, but I have bothered to educate myself on such matters as much as I could. There may be a whole realm of physics that we know nothing about, and I wouldn't at all be surprised if this were the case, but it all remains to be seen. And really this whole debate as to weather Lazar and Lear are legit is really based on that. I'm trying to be fair here, and I'm trying to provide an accommodating stance on the matter so as to provide benefit of the doubt. I also don't want to attack Bob and John without reason, that would be unfair, and I really am genuinely trying to seek the truth about the issue of UFOs and Aliens, and I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong on the case of John and Bob. Because that would make them heroes in my eyes, and in the eyes of the world.

Please don't assume that I'm trying to be crass about the facts. And don't assume that I'm not open to being wrong. In fact I welcome it. But I'm gonna need more than a few claims to work with. And since you seem to be alot more collected in your info than most anyone on the issue, then it is you and Lear that I look to for such answers. Until then I will genuinely try to remain objective on the matter. Because I don't think anybody really has a choice in the matter.

[edit on 28-1-2008 by projectvxn]

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Topcat14

 

It's not that we're attacking the messenger. It is in fact his message we're attacking. He has consistently proven erroneous in his ability to describe basic processes of that take place in accelerators. If anything he was a janitor at one of these facilities. Maybe a cook. But certainly not a physicist. He's talked himself out of that field. Look, some debunkers are there only to create disinformation. But some people do this by telling others what they want to hear. Lear and Lazar do just that.

Ok projectvxn, I’m willing to keep a open a open mind , but I’d like to see more than just your word that Lazar has consistently proven erroneous in his ability to describe basic processes of that take place in accelerators. Maybe I’m just not up to snuff on this, I’ve seen several people claim this, but haven’t seen any links where Bob Lazar was consistently proven wrong. Again I’m not doubting you or anyone on this forum just looking for some “facts”

reply to post by Topcat14


Example:

Element 115. Lazar claims that proton bombardment on this element produce 2 anti-protons...Look up element anti-matter and the methods of it's creation and you'll see why I think this is BS. Believe me when I say this, I was more than willing to believe every word he said up to that point.

Originally posted by johnlear
Originally posted by philjwolf

all our planets are inhabited????????

Yes, all planets and most satellites including our moon are inhabited by people just like us. This includes Saturn, Jupiter, Neptune, Venus, Mars, Pluto, Mercury and all others.

Sorry bud, but I need some actual facts to back up that claim, even though I may seem to be coming from the earth is flat school, this is a fairly revolutionary claim, wouldn't you say?

It's always entertaining to look at the Bob Lazar story even though I've been through it several times before. Surely, there are things that don't fit right with Bob and his story, but stranger things have happened in the history of mankind. Someone could probably find questionable things about my education and background if they tried hard enough. There are all kinds of reasons a scientist may not have any publications attributed to them. Generally, master's level scientists have few and very commonly none. Classified or proprietary information just does not get papers written, for example. In this age of specialization, (and due to being older, and longer out of school) many of us may not quite be up to date or even remember theoretical science as well as we should. My quantum theory knowledge is rusty and outdated, for example. I have scanned the United Nuclear web site for a few years and find no bad science there. As I previously stated, I have placed orders with United Nuclear. Also interesting was my debunking of the debunking's claim that Bob Lazar got his element 115 ideas and story from a 1988 edition of Scientific American. I obtained a copy of every Scientific American published anywhere close to the breaking of the Lazar story, and that claim is totally unfounded. Score one for Bob.

As far as Mr. John Lear goes, he is a Conspiracy Master, and does a fine job getting and keeping conversations going. You don't have to believe what John says about anything, that's your own choice. Look at some of the subject matter here on ATS. I'm real glad I don't believe a whole lot of it. This is a conspiracy site, so we're looking for alternative explanations for all kinds of things. John has thick skin, so the attacks on him and his ideas he could care less about. I find him quite entertaining and hope he is here for a very long while. In fact, we are very fortunate to have a man of his knowledge, connections and background talking to us here on ATS. The fact the he is a great B.S. er is just frosting on the cake. Perhaps one has to be "older" like me to appreciate John's wit. Anyway, if you want to study conventional science, find a textbook. Here we seek unconventional ideas about science etc.







[edit on 1/28/2008 by TheAvenger]

Originally posted by TheAvenger
...
As far as Mr. John Lear goes, ... In fact, we are very fortunate to have a man of his knowledge, connections and background talking to us here on ATS. ....

Omg, tell us 1 thing he's brought forward on this specific thread? Nothing on Bob Lazar, except, "I knew him". Same with a Clifford Stone thread.

I don't care if Lear knows these guys, what does that do for a thread? In this case,

Originally posted by johnlear
Yes, all planets and most satellites including our moon are inhabited by people just like us. This includes Saturn, Jupiter, Neptune, Venus, Mars, Pluto, Mercury and all others.

so what does that have to do with Bob Lazar? Nothing. He needs to start a blog and have his followers read him there instead of wasting everybody's time with fairy tales.

By the way, if there's life on the moon, we need to get a refund for the NASA Clementine Probe which took images of our moon in 1994

reply to post by senshido


Perhaps ATS is the wrong venue for you. You may need to find your truth elsewhere, like "Physics Today."