What did I see during mock dogfight?

I've been curious about what type of weapon or mock weapon I saw. While watching, at various times, 2 to 4 aircraft in mock combat, I would see one aircraft emit two bright, white/amber flashes with short, thin black trails.
Now, assuming live weapons wouldn't be used then, does the military use dummy missiles like this? Or was it some type of anti-missile?

Also, just how do military pilots practice with missiles and bombs? How do they and at what point in training are they using "live" weapons? Do they do a lot of simulator type weapons training?

Thanks for all replies.

When you say "emit" do you mean they fired something or dropped something?

Possibly flares to break a heat lock or it could have been the sun reflecting chaff.

Originally posted by desert
While watching, at various times, 2 to 4 aircraft in mock combat, I would see one aircraft emit two bright, white/amber flashes with short, thin black trails.

Those were flares.

Ah, good question. Hmmm, I assumed it was fired, because of the flash (which went away quickly) and the short trails of black smoke trailing out from the flash, opposite the direction the plane was going. The flashes were spaced apart like from one wingtip to another. The planes did carry something under their wingtips.

Flares to break a heat lock. Yes, that is what I was thinking could be a possibility, but didn't know how to put it, like something to confuse a sensor. Would the flare confuse a sensor on an aircraft or a sensor on a missile? Or both?

Chaff. Do they still use that, like the old WW2 metal chaff? Or is it "elecrtronic" chaff? Oh, you said reflecting, ok, so metal?

do you live next to a firing range?

reply to post by desert


If they were really bright, had a little smoke trail, then they were flares. I've shot enough of them from my plane to know what they look like.

Thanks, jerico65 & Daedalus3.
The planes were not over a firing range, that's why I was thinking it was not "live" ordinance. I do remember now reading about how unexploded ordinance could be found on those huge areas in the desert, so I guess that's how pilots train. A firing range like a rifle range, but on a much more HUGE scale

jerico, I associate flares with a longer lasting light, as these lights flashed and then were gone in a couple seconds. Oh, I watched this during a mostly cloudy day (which might remove sun "reflection" on a surface) , not night. If it was a type of flare, what would it have been used for? Illumination for a brief time, or confusing a sensor on a missile?

I tell you, jerico, it sure looked like those pilots were having fun while taking care of business. What a rush!

reply to post by desert



The flares burn really hot and they are pretty quick. They are used to decoy missiles that are looking for hot engines.

Yeah, flares. I have seen them drop on a few occasions, both when I was in and also growing up my Uncle lived on base (Air Force) and I had the oppurtunity to see them in use. Just what yuo described. Short bright flash, heading the opposite direction from the plane.

I still think they use Chaff as well on certain systems.

reply to post by desert


how do pilots practice shooting sh*t..?

well, sometimes they really do just shoot at sh*t, really, with real bombs and machine guns and stuff... and sometimes they use electronic warfare training which uses clever stuff like lasers to pretend...

The whole electronic warfare thing uses planes that have electronic sensors strapped all over them to pick up hits from other planes fitted with 'weapons' that fire off lasers (not a Dr Evil style Lay-zer more the red dot syle things), or radio frequency 'beams' which are detected as a hit or not, its quite clever!

The airfield I work on has a company called FR aviation who specialise in all the things you have spoken about, flare and chaff dispensers, and electronic warfare training sorties.

Look anything like this?


Granted this plane is releasing more than a few flares, but you can see enough to compare to what you saw.

Just for poops & giggles, Here a great video of a military plane dropping hundreds of flares at the same time.

Flares sound right on!

OK, rat, I'm getting a mind picture of a giant game of laser tag. Yes, that type of practice would certainly be right for this age of electronics.

Hey, besides the flares, I saw an interesting maneuver, when one of the jets was by itself:

after completing a loop, the jet looked like it came back to do another one, but at the top it seemed upside down, then it seemed to point its nose down at the top, then went horizontal (right side up) and flew off, like a tiny u-turn at the top of a loop. I didn't think something could do that. I'm still scratching my head over that one.
Any ideas?

reply to post by Lotiki


A picture truly is worth a thousand words!
Yes, especially another one of an F-18 I viewed on that site. ONLY I didn't see such a display Only 2 at a time, then awhile till the next time.

reply to post by desert


yes, you are indeed getting the idea of laser tag... thats exactly what it is, there is more to it than that, but thats the general idea!

as for your u turn thing, the latest gen of fighters can do sh*t like that by using thrust vectoring jet nozzles...

en.wikipedia.org...

www.errachidia.org...

pretty cool huh!

Wow, I hadn't thought about the thrust vectoring! Thanks, rat.

What I'm going to do next time I see any air action is to try to identify the aircraft. I'm fairly certain it wasn't an F-22. Looked more like type of F18 Hornet.

Hey, I notice your location. I like British engine/aircraft history.

Oh, I dont' get to see air action as often as I'ld like. These pilots work 9-5 M-F like me, so I only see them when I have a vacation.

reply to post by desert


according to a friend of mine, who is the biggest nerd/geek/anorak on stuff like this (he works in a university who do develpment work for Rolls Royce gas turbines), they have been strapping various incarnations of the thrust vector engine system to all kinds of aircraft since the early 90's but its only the new gen of fighters that are being wheeled out with it as standard, things like the mig29ovt, the f22 raptor and the eurofighter.

As for my location, i live in a pretty cool place for an aviation enthusiast, right on the south coast, the building I work in used to be a machine shop for BAC on the site where they built the one-eleven passenger plane, just down the road was one of the pioneering radar research sites, de-haviland aviation used to build planes close by too, there is an aviation museum right on our doorstep, which has a whole load of cool engines and planes - things like the bristol sydley orpheus, bristol/rolls royce/snecma olympus from the vulcan bomber (a personal favourite of mine) and the concorde, plus one of the worlds only flying de-haviland sea vixens, a jet provost. and a gloster meteor as well as tonnes of other cool stuff, its not as big as some of the ones in your neck of the woods, but they have excellent taste!

catch you later