Most Americans Believe In Creation

Originally posted by RuneSpider
reply to post by ppkjjkpp

 

What wars? Crusades. That's a big one. There were several wars fought because God said that such and such peoples were barbaric and should be cleaned out or Christianized. It's not just extremists. Christianity has been used to justify everything from murder to slavery, just like every religion.

Including atheism. Stalin?

Creationist's get bashed for their beliefs because most of them are deliberately misinterpreting information and passing it on to other people who then belief the false information that they get. Honest, hard working Creationists try to find proof of Creationism and generally can't find evidence or find evidence that can fall both ways.

We have the same evidence. Only different assumptions.

People throughout the world don't hate Christianity for it's beliefs, they hate it because the people who practice it call them sinners and worse because they follow their religion, which in the case of Islam shares the same root religion, Judaism! Yet Christians hate the Jews because of their partial link to an event that happened 2000 years ago. I get ticked off because for some reason People are assured that Jesus was a white guy with great personal grooming who lived among other white folks in Israel.

We are all sinners. What you've never did anything wrong? I have, and I can admit it. It doesn't make me mad if someone called me a sinner because it's true.
Christians don't hate Jews.

Christianity persecutes more than it is persecuted, yet for some reason we whine more about it.
And also, from what I understand, God never said to be against someone for their beliefs or sexual orientation, he said God alone can judge another man's action, yet you want to judge everyone based on a belief not everyone shares. God alone knows what's best for us, but he never said to make the laws according to his will.

I'm not against anyone. I know most American's don't want marriages outside of a man and woman and yet the law was passed against the majoirty.
God set clear laws in the Bible for Chirtians to follow because he knows that following them is the best for us.

I'm sorry this doesn't have a lot to contribute to the post (too tired of debating evolution and creationism at the moment) but for everyone who keeps taking about the Founding Fathers:

Yes, many of them were deists. They believed in a God but not a personal God. Some were also true born again Christians. I highly suggest reading their works. Even the deists agreed with Christian teachings even if not always on a spiritual level. I believe Thomas Jefferson (who we know was a deist) even said it would be a travesty not to teach Christianity in public schools. A few months ago the History Channel did a special on the founding fathers and their religious views. We've all been ingrained now to believe the "separation of church and state" and "The founding fathers didn't believe in Christianity." Even as a Christian I was shocked to see all the quotes presented from the documentary supporting Christianity even by the ardent deists.

They also went into the separation of church and state issue to bring up some interesting points. The believed the intention was never to completely separate the two at opposite sides of the pendulum. What they wanted to do was keep the government's nose out of the church (no government sanctions religions or state churches like Europe had) but that religion could go into the government. If you go back through and read their works and even the amendments you will see some surprising things.

I suppose this doesn't really matter anymore because people can simply say "thing's have changed since their days" but their point was freedom of religion, including in the government and that the government was not to restrict it. Anyhow, it was surprising to see the History Channel known for its secularism doing a show on the subject.

okay, again, wrong.

by your accord you are telling me that children raised as christians, that go to church, choose at such a young age to go to church. i will yet again state: THEY DO NOT CHOOSE TO BE CHRISTIAN. THEY ARE RAISED AS CHRISTIANS. CHRISTIANITY FORCES ITS VIEWS UPON THEM BECAUSE THAT IS THE WAY IN WHICH CHRISTIANITY CONTINUES TO EXIST. how can you possibly not see that? i simply don't understand this, at all. it is the same reason that muslim children hate americans. they are brought up in a society where they are TAUGHT to hate americans. values are not something one is born with. they are learned. thus, taking a small child to church instills christianity upon them, without any choice. they are not aware of any other choice. therefore, it IS forced.

secondly, the references to your god in our mottos on buildings, money, etc. is a result of change. a great example is as follows:

... one nation under God, indevisible
with liberty and justice for all.

I find it funny that "under God" was not added until the fifties. How satisfying!

The fact of the matter here is that politics is influenced by religion because the masses are ignorant beasts. Free thinkers were prosecuted throughout our history. Religion is the cause of more bloodshed and prosecution than any other factor.

If our founding fathers wanted no established religion, then where is the link between the christian god and our government's buildings, currency, etc. acceptable? One Nation Under God, In God We Trust... what God is being referenced here? the christian god. God's name is on our money, right where he would have wanted it. (get it??)

We don't see christianity in muslim nations because the children are raised as muslims. The entire nation is muslim, thus the people in it are muslim. Do you not understand simple principles? Why is it that roman children believed in roman gods? I wonder... hmm.
I got it! its because they were not raised or taught in another manner.

Is it sheer coincidence that southern baptists view god as hating homosexuals now, when in fact he apparently hated blacks in prior years? what about hating muslims, jews, hispanics? It is pretty obvious to me that "God" is changing his opinions on people as his followers change theirs. He hated communists during the cold war and red scare, but now i guess he's cool with them. GO FIGURE!

The bible has never been proven wrong? Every part of it actually happened? Let me tell you a little something.

Many of the books in the bible that were supposedly written by holy men, prophets, etc., were, in fact, written hundreds of years after their deaths? ZOMG WTF?!! you tell me how this is possible, please. the fact of the matter is that it is impossible to disprove the bible because it is safeguarded by statements like "You cannot comprehend God's will" or "It is beyond the human realm to question the bible".

If you want my opinion, Mary wasn't a virgin, she banged the mailman. If that doesn't suffice, then maybe Joseph came on her panties when she wasn't around, and she put them on. I guess it gets tough when your lady doesn't put out.

What else... how about it says, by tracking the age of people in the bible, that the world is about 10,000 years old. WRONG. It says that there are four corners of the earth, implying that it is flat. WRONG. There is NO HISTORY OF JEWS IN EGYPT. The Sun was created twice? A snake with feet that talks? The plants were made before the sun? Wouldn't they freeze and die? 1 man and 1 woman have 2 sons, and one dies. 10k years later we have 6 billion plus people? Global flood? Where's the evidence? Wait, the evidence says these are all wrong.

Jesus is mithras, wait.. i meant hercules, crap.. horus, oops.. isus. DO YOU FOLLOW ME NOW?

www.godtube.com...
Evolution. Again. Watch.

en.wikipedia.org...
a philosophical view. my religion-think freely, not on an incapacitated level.

reply to post by ppkjjkpp


“What wars were started from Christians forcing there beliefs on others?”

Let’s just start with the big ones the ones we can check historically by written record is that OK with everyone?

French Wars of Religion: (1562 to 1598) were a series of conflicts in France fought between Catholics and Huguenots (Protestants) from the middle of the sixteenth century to the Edict of Nantes in 1598, including civil infighting as well as military operations. In addition to the religious elements, they involved a struggle for control over the ruling of the country between the powerful House of Guise (Lorraine) and the Catholic League, on the one hand, and the House of Bourbon on the other. In addition, they may also be considered a war by proxy between King Philip II of Spain and Queen Elizabeth I of England. The wars concluded with the issuing of the Edict of Nantes by Henry IV of France, which granted a degree of religious toleration to Protestants. That was pretty good one wouldn’t you say? Guess we won't kill all the Protestants right now. I wounder what all those evil Protestants were doing?

Let’s put up another one, how about the Crusades: The Crusades were a series of military conflicts of a religious character waged by much of Christian Europe against external and internal threats. Crusades were fought against Muslims, pagan Slavs, Russian and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Cathars, Hussites, and political enemies of the popes.[1] Crusaders took vows and were granted an indulgence for past sins.[1]
The Crusades originally had the goal of recapturing Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslim rule and were originally launched in response to a call from the Eastern Orthodox Byzantine Empire for help against the expansion of the Muslim Seljuk Turks into Anatolia. The term is also used to describe contemporaneous and subsequent campaigns conducted through to the 16th century in territories outside the Levant[2] usually against pagans, heretics, and peoples under the ban of excommunication[3] for a mixture of religious, economic, and political reasons.[4] Rivalries among both Christian and Muslim powers led also to alliances between religious factions against their opponents, such as the Christian alliance with the Sultanate of Rum during the Fifth Crusade.
The Crusades had far-reaching political, economic, and social impacts, some of which have lasted into contemporary times. Because of internal conflicts among Christian kingdoms and political powers, some of the crusade expeditions were diverted from their original aim, such as the Fourth Crusade, which resulted in the sack of Christian Constantinople and the partition of the Byzantine Empire between Venice and the Crusaders. The Sixth Crusade was the first crusade to set sail without the official blessing of the Pope, establishing the precedent that rulers other than the Pope could initiate a crusade. Not bad.

I'm sorry I don't have more space, I was just getting warmed up. The fact is the Christians have been at war since before the 10th century.

Other wonderful things given to us by the Christians, how about the Dark Ages if I had the room I'd be happy to go into detail on that one. Ever heard of the term "Witch Hunt".

Anyway all I'm saying is history tells us the story, and you can ether believe it or not, and yes I believe in God. I just don't follow the dogma of the organized Church.

reply to post by RoboXXX


you sir, are my hero. i am very happy that you can be religious, and not involve yourself in religious atrocities. if there ever is a day that i become religious, as there may very well be, i hope i can do so with the clarity that you have attributed to yourself. people like you give me hope for humanity.

Originally posted by CaptainG0705
it is the same reason that muslim children hate americans. they are brought up in a society where they are TAUGHT to hate americans.

Dude, Dude, Dude.... stop.

I agree with you that kids are raised Christian, I was myself, but I still think for myself and unfortunately (I should) I don't go to church and I don't call myself a Christian.

But for crying out loud, where do you get the idea that all muslim children are taught to hate Americans? I'll tell you why: you've been brainwashed by propaganda and media just like the majority of Americans.

Islam is a religion of peace and obedience to God. Extremists raise their children to be suicide bombers for a reason: they are insane. It has nothing to do with Islam.

As far as the rest of your dialogue about Christianity, I still agree, there is alot of history and symbolism that can be dissected. But the fact remains, people born and bred Christian can still choose to be Christian on their own account.... they aren't all forced. The same goes for Muslims.

Originally posted by ppkjjkpp
We have never observed evolution. In fact we haven't observed anything beyond thousands of years ago. Not millions.
Observing is not the same as assuming.

Collection of data through observation - check

Formulation and testing of hypotheses - check

By the way, all these supposed 'Christian' wars?

Run by the Catholic church. The vatican. The biggest deceiver and betrayer of spiritual knowledge to mankind. It has nothing to do with Jesus OR Christianity.

Again, extremist insanity mistaken for true religion. It's happening to Islam right now as it happened to 'Christians' in the past. The scary thing is, both religions predicted it. They knew institutions would rise up, take control of the religion, and start wars with false tongues. Ta-da, America is now killing Iraqis because G.W. had a hunch from God.

Just think about it...

reply to post by NewWorldOver


agreed. i did not mean all children. i should have specified, and i'm sorry. my point is that a lot of children are brought up in a certain religious manner. it is very possible that eventually they can decide for themselves. it is a truth. my main point is that there are an incredibly vast amount of people around the world that do not question what is taught to them. in my opinion, it is a very wrong thing to do to take a child to church. this is not because i feel that christians do not have good values. and it is not because i feel that christianity is an evil thing. it is because they are being presented with an overwhelming thought. what three year old do you know has the ability to question things in the manner that we are doing so on this thread? i know of none. the same goes with children throughout the world. i did not mean to single out muslims, but it was a simple example. i know that not every muslim child hates america. but i do know that those that do, especially those at such a young age, are not capable of comprehending why it is that they should hate america. they just do.

Yeah that's true. When I was a kid I didn't understand prayer. I knew we were supposedly talking to God but as a kid, you don't see how that's possible and you can't even formulate an idea of God. It's definitely too vast.

Church is definitely a form of pre-school or daycare for little kids, but there are still extremists... have a click at my sig and watch the documentary of the Phelps family, the westboro church. Maybe you've already been part of that discussion in the other thread. Those kids DEFINITELY do not have any clue what they're being taught.

reply to post by NewWorldOver


That is absolutely horrifying. I have seen a documentary called Jesus Camp that is worth checking out. Not as terrible as the ideals presented in yours, but the evidence of children being near brainwashed. Its very scary, and the people are gaining a lot of power in the country.

reply to post by NewWorldOver


Agreed that it was put in place by the Vatican, but their actions tend to define the beliefs of many Christians. So the reason why it's generalized is because it's not just a few small groups believing it, it's the mainstream Christians and Christian churches that are teaching this idea. Maybe they made up stuff, sure, but it is what the majority believes. And, according to the OP, what the majority believes must be fact, or accepted as fact.
In my opinion, religion and atheism both have their points. Science should be pursued freely, but tempered by religious morals. Religious fervor should be tempered by atheist sense.
What I mean, is that science is great, and I think that God gave a us a brain to use and learn, but there are some places we should draw the line. While religion in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing, being maniacal in your dedication can also be a bad thing, limiting your learning or causing learning to stagnate.

Originally posted by ppkjjkpp
Well I look at America's motto, the currency, the national anthem, engraving's on government building's, statues on government property, past government documents...etc and their is a strong reference to God.
They didn't want an established religion and there never was one in America. This doesn't mean that they didn't believe in God.

The point is they wanted to separate religion from state, regardless if they themselves were religious. That is why creationism should not be taught in public schools. That would undermine the separation of church and state, no?

It has been proven? No it hasn't. It is assumed based on a theory. We have never observed this happen and therefore it cannot be science. No evolutionary claims about ancestry can be proven which shatters the theory.

You're just choosing not to accept it.

IF you watched the video you would have realize two things. One, evolution made a prediction before the data was found--that one of our chromosomes must be a fusion of two ancient primate chromosomes. This prediction is based on evolutionary theory that primates are all related and share a common ancestor. If it is wrong, then evolutionary theory flies out the window. Two, they did in fact find that two primate chromosomes fused in the human genome; it is actually chromosome number two of our 23 pairs.

So here is a perfect example of the predictive power of evolution and the observable, objective data used to confirm it and MOST IMPORTANTLY FALSIFY IT!

Why can't creationism do this? What does it predict? How is it falsifiable? What experiments are creationists doing?

Going to church does not force you to be a Christian. If like you say, children are being 'forced' to go and they don't want to that would make them turn from Christianity as they age, and this happens. In my opinion going to church would teach the children good morals.
We rarely see a Christian in an islamic country because the Koran specifically says, "Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another." It then says in another verse, "When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly."

I think the poster was just referencing the fact that children at a young age have no choice as to whether or not they want to go to church. I think you would agree that that is a little bit forceful. Now, you are right when you say that some turn away as they age, but a lot probably do become indoctrinated. Is it that hard for you to believe that a child is easily molded into a view at a young age? Once that belief is set in at a young age, it's probably harder to get away from as you age.

I believe science having evolution taught is forcing a view because it is the only view.

BANG ON! It is the only scientific view that is taught in science class because there are no other scientific views that can stand up to the scientific method at this point.

There are no other views allowed. Evolution can only provide science for microevolution and no one opposes this.

This is where you are completely wrong. It's not a matter of others not being allowed, its a matter of others not being scientific. Show me another scientific theory that explains the complexity and inter relationships between all species and I will gladly join your side to include other theories, beside evolution, in science classes.

What are the other scientific theories?

Christianity is based on the Bible. Which has never been proven wrong. It's not blind faith, every part of it actually happened.

Except for the global flood, Noah creating an arc and housing all land species just to name a few.

Anyways, if it isn't faith, then there should be some proof of these things. Show us how Noah could fit every land species in an arc of that proportion. It's just not possible.

I usually wouldn't argue this point because theists usually say it shouldn't be taken literally, but you are the one that said every part of it actually happened and extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.

[edit on 25-1-2008 by LuDaCrIs]

[edit on 25-1-2008 by LuDaCrIs]

Originally posted by CaptainG0705
That is absolutely horrifying. I have seen a documentary called Jesus Camp that is worth checking out.

Ohhh yea, I've seen Jesus Camp. Really fricken sad. Making kids cry out to God as if they're dying and calling that a religious experience. Ugh.

The lady that runs that camp is a demon. She probably abuses children behind closed doors. Lots of sickos in the fundamentalist world.

reply to post by RuneSpider


It is completely ridiculous that one should assume that good values and morals merit religious values and morals. I am not trying to denounce your opinion, but I would like to state that a belief that science or learning should be limited is a poor statement to make. Maybe you did not mean it as literally as I am taking it, but I don't feel that it is correct. I consider myself a reasonable, good person. Yet, I am not religious. Science's sole purpose is to disprove, and in the process, to learn. Why should learning be limited? Yes, it is probably true that we should limit science, but we should limit it from causing harm. By this I mean that we can develop nuclear capabilities, but they should be used for something like energy, not destruction. Religion need play no part in controlling science.

reply to post by ppkjjkpp


"God set clear laws in the Bible for Chirtians to follow because he knows that following them is the best for us."

How in the world do YOU know what God wanted? Is there some sort of hotline? Are you the only person in the world who can talk to him? It is convenient to say, but as I've said with many of your statements... give me proof.

I'm going to end this in a similar manner that the reply began:

God said these forums are meant to spread his word.
I know its true because I feel it to be true.

...hanging head in shame...



[edit on 25-1-2008 by CaptainG0705]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by ThreeNF

 

that's not a test on the origin of life...
and honestly, the raelian stuff is just as BS as the other forms of "creation"
...actually, slightly more. it creates infinite regress. it's not an answer to anything.

and evolution is far from a myth, it's scientifically proven that life has evolved. life was not created in its current state. why do i say this? well, we don't see rat fossils in the strata near the dinosaurs, do we?
we only see fossils around where they should be based on evolutionary theory, instead of in a random jumble as they should be if everything was created

Doesn't that presume that the rat was created at the same time as the dinosaur?

Have you ever seen the Blue Bird of Paradise, and its mating ritual?
www.metacafe.com...

LOL!! - That was designed with the sole purpose of amusing those that created it I just can't understand how any person could look at it differently.

Nice artwork, Elohim!!

Originally posted by ppkjjkpp

Including atheism. Stalin?

No, not atheism. Communism. They're not the same.

Originally posted by Thousand

Originally posted by ppkjjkpp

Including atheism. Stalin?

No, not atheism. Communism. They're not the same.

I agree and hope it will eventually sink in that Catholicism and what they did is not the same as all of Christianity. I will hold onto this post and link to it the next time someone points out the crusades and inquisition. Those communists were often atheists. Those Catholics were also a part of "Christianity" in their own twisted minds. Hopefully the world will catch on one day.

reply to post by ThreeNF


ah... so you're saying that things were created at different times...

now, prove those that you claim created this mating ritual for their amusement exist.