For the little time I've been on ATS, I have noticed two reoccuring arguments against creation which are that Christians are forcing their beliefs on everybody and that most scientists believe in evolution so it must be right.
The truth is that Christians are not forcing their beliefs on anyone. Christians share their faith with people and then people can choose if they want to believe it or not. It's not like Christians are putting a gun to your head and making you believe it. People choose. Besides, people including Christians can say whatever they want. It's called freedom of speech and democracy. If creation was taught in schools before evolution then evolutionists must have forced their 'science' on the majority of people who happen to be Christians. So what's wrong with the majority of Americans trying to bring back creation to the majority?
Also most Americans believe in creation and God. This means that they are the majority and democracy serves the majority. So if 15% of the population doesn't accept creation and God, that's fine, but they are the minority and should not rule the media and schools as they already are. I mean, in America, if the majority wants creation then creation should be the way to go. Even if all the scientists in America believe evolution, that is still the minority of Americans. You could call Americans ignorant because of this but it doesn't really matter because the 'ignorant' people are still the majority.
America grew into the most powerful nation on earth based on Christianity and 'ignorant' people and it could definitely continue to survive without the atheistic/evolutionist minority.

[edit on 24-1-2008 by ppkjjkpp]

The truth is that Christians are not forcing their beliefs on anyone.

No, but they do say that people who do not agree with them will burn in hell for eternity, which is neither nice nor likely.

Also most Americans believe in creation and God. This means that they are the majority and democracy serves the majority.... I mean, in America, if the majority wants creation then creation should be the way to go.

Unfortunately, facts aren't something you can vote on.

You could call Americans ignorant because of this but it doesn't really matter because the 'ignorant' people are still the majority.

So if the majority of Americans believed that the earth was flat, would you believe that too. Would we have to rewrite all the textbooks? How does ignorance have any bearing on what is true and what is false?

I don't understand why so many Christians can't just be Christian while still accepting the overwhelming evidence that evolution was an operative factor in the development of life on earth. I mean, the Bible is full of archaic beliefs that I know you don't subscribe to. The Bible is myth, and the truths it contains are psychological truths. Those are important. Genesis is full of truth, but it's a kind of truth that has nothing to do with what science is doing.

Btw, evolution is a theory. A very good one. There are no absolutes in science -- it is always a work in progress. Only organized religions propound absolute truths. That's why they tend to cancel each other out ... and why they usually want to destroy each other.

[edit on 24-1-2008 by cambrian77]

Peer review is far from a perfect system for determining facts, but it does assume that all the "peers" are looking at the data with the same intention: finding a rational correlation between the thesis and reality as they currently understand it.

Is it a form of vote? No. It's a forum for discussion and the sharing of views.

I'm not saying that science is perfect -- far from it -- but I am saying that there is a huge difference between saying "I believe that this paper is valid because, based on my training and my own experiments, it seems right" and "I believe in Genesis because the Bible says so."

The Catholic Church let go of any literalist interpretation of the Bible ages ago, and it is still working as a religion. Having faith in God does not require one to put away reason.





[edit on 24-1-2008 by cambrian77]

I think you may be missing the point of my argument. Whether scientists are "voting" on facts or not is not the issue. The issue is: facts cannot be voted upon ... meaning: a fact is a fact whether X number of people believe it or not.

As for evolution, it is a theory. It's a useful theory because it explains alot. Does it automatically do away with God and the Bible? Of course not. There are many things you find the Bible that don't ring so true even to the most fundamentalist Christian living today, and Christianity still exists. Obviously, religion can (*ahem*) evolve. Some people would obviously prefer not to.

Originally posted by cambrian77

No, but they do say that people who do not agree with them will burn in hell for eternity, which is neither nice nor likely.

Okay... still not forcing people, at least you agree. Let's not talk about Christianity and kindness since being nice is a Christian virtue.

Unfortunately, facts aren't something you can vote on.

Sure you can. You can vote on anything in democractic system. Whatever the majority (creation) wants not what the minority (evolution) wants.
Anyhow, the minority made evolution a fact.

So if the majority of Americans believed that the earth was flat, would you believe that too. Would we have to rewrite all the textbooks? How does ignorance have any bearing on what is true and what is false?.

It has nothing to do with what I believe, but what the majority wants.
Well we'd keep observable science that has been tested in the labratory in the textbooks of course, as the majority wants.

I don't understand why so many Christians can't just be Christian while still accepting the overwhelming evidence that evolution was an operative factor in the development of life on earth.

Because some Christians don't base the evidence on the same assumptions as you.



[edit on 24-1-2008 by ppkjjkpp]

Not forcing beliefs on people eh?
What about Christian horror houses? True that's a fairly voluntary bit to enter, I guess, but then it's a but of a throat jammer after the fun entrance.

Let's not use history for this one, right?
So, how about all the rallies at abortion clinics? Or the many factions of Christianity that hold it as a right to kill others. Or how about Gay rights? Using Christianity to decide whether or not gays should be allowed to marry, or are even right according to the Bible. Mike Huckabee wants to change the Constitution to better reflect God's laws.
Or how about Rev. Fred Phelps? Saying that dead soldiers are what we get for allowing homosexuals in our country, and praising the IDE that killed a young man at the young man's funeral?
If I actually tried to use history as a example, I could keep pulling events out. Wars were started from Christianity pushing their beliefs on others.

Christianity isn't bad by itself, but the people worshiping have no compunction about forcing their beliefs on others, or taking God's words as they see fit.

Now then, aside from that. Science is a very tricky field, every new thing has to be analyzed and decided if it's fact. it doesn't matter if it's over night or over a hundred years, science wants to make sure a idea or theory is right before claiming proof. Religions say "POOF!" So is so and always was and will be. Religions tend to persecute new ideas and tech.

Maybe America was built on the fundamentals of Christianity, but it thrived on the knowledge and skill of the athiests and secularists. She needed them yesterday, she needs them today, and she'll need them tomorrow.

So what's wrong with the majority of Americans trying to bring back creation to the majority?

You can. Do it in your churches where it belongs. Even fight for religious education classes in school, and do it there.

But it doesn't belong in a science class.

cheers.

the 'ignorant' people are still the majority

Maybe.

Originally posted by RuneSpider
Not forcing beliefs on people eh?
What about Christian horror houses? True that's a fairly voluntary bit to enter, I guess, but then it's a but of a throat jammer after the fun entrance.

Let's not use history for this one, right?
So, how about all the rallies at abortion clinics? Or the many factions of Christianity that hold it as a right to kill others. Or how about Gay rights? Using Christianity to decide whether or not gays should be allowed to marry, or are even right according to the Bible. Mike Huckabee wants to change the Constitution to better reflect God's laws.
Or how about Rev. Fred Phelps? Saying that dead soldiers are what we get for allowing homosexuals in our country, and praising the IDE that killed a young man at the young man's funeral?
If I actually tried to use history as a example, I could keep pulling events out. Wars were started from Christianity pushing their beliefs on others.

Christianity isn't bad by itself, but the people worshiping have no compunction about forcing their beliefs on others, or taking God's words as they see fit.

Now then, aside from that. Science is a very tricky field, every new thing has to be analyzed and decided if it's fact. it doesn't matter if it's over night or over a hundred years, science wants to make sure a idea or theory is right before claiming proof. Religions say "POOF!" So is so and always was and will be. Religions tend to persecute new ideas and tech.

Maybe America was built on the fundamentals of Christianity, but it thrived on the knowledge and skill of the athiests and secularists. She needed them yesterday, she needs them today, and she'll need them tomorrow.

Sure there is some Christian extremists. Just like there is atheist extremists and many other religions with extremists. The Bible doesn't say to kill people, so I don't know what Christians you are talking about.
People hate Christians all over the world because of their message, not because they are forcing their beliefs on them. What wars were started from Christians forcing there beliefs on others? Abortion is wrong according to the Bible and so is homosexual marriage. And again it's not the majority of Americans that passed the law to allow abortions happen. It was the minority. Same thing with the gay marriage laws.
Evolutionists/atheists bash Christians for their belief in creation. You can see this even on ATS. Evolutionists can't admit that things look designed by a designer, eventhough everything does looks designed without a doubt. One simple cell is thousands of times more complex than our most powerful super computer.

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
Which plays into your group's collective hands instead of theirs.
Which is, I assure you, how they see it.
And I am sure you may see it that way too.

Yup, to tell you the truth, I couldn't give a fig.

Science doesn't rule out your magical ideas. It just don't care, and neither do I. However, I do care about science education.

If churches aren't good enough. Tough luck. As I said, they should be fighting for RE classes, not to contaminate science with their religious stories. We have them here in the UK, and they can learn the various quaint stories about creation. Doesn't bother me. Do it in the right place and all is sweet.

cheers.

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
Tsk more assumptions.
Not touching the last part I see.
Would after all admit motive.

So the world can by science join atheism and there can be peace (alot seems to think which I think is rather silly a thought).

Or I could be wrong but I (obviously) rather doubt I am.

Didn't seem to be question, just an erroneous statement. But if you want my opinion...

Science =/= atheism. If that was the case, no scientists would be theists. But some are.

Originally posted by melatonin

So what's wrong with the majority of Americans trying to bring back creation to the majority?

You can. Do it in your churches where it belongs. Even fight for religious education classes in school, and do it there.

But it doesn't belong in a science class.

cheers.

the 'ignorant' people are still the majority

Maybe.

Evolution doesn't belong in the science class beyond microevolution because it hasn't been observed.

Originally posted by ppkjjkpp
Creation means there is a God and evolution means there is no God. This is clearly shown in textbooks and evolution literature. Most americans believe in God and therefore creation, by any means.

This is why letting people like you vote on science would be a joke idea. As bad as letting people vote on the diagnosis of cancer.

Evolution doesn't rule out god. It just appears to rule out what you think god did.

Originally posted by ppkjjkpp
Evolution doesn't belong in the science class beyond microevolution because it hasn't been observed.

And murderers shouldn't be sent to prison because we sometimes can't observe them sticking the knife in.

It can be inferred from the data, just like evolution. It also depends on how you define 'macroevolution'.

[edit on 24-1-2008 by melatonin]