God's existence...But why Christianity?

But seriously. It seems as though when people are trying to prove or disprove the existence of God, they're only attacking the God of the Bible.

That God has been butchered enough. It just seems like we're constantly arguing with close-minded Christians that think they're smart by "proving that God exists".

Does anyone think we should maybe try other religions? Sure, Christianity may be the easiest considering how most Americans are at least born into Christian families and we might know a little about it, but I'd like to see some discussions about the Islamic God or the Hindu Gods or anything else besides Yahweh.

Many Eastern world views crumble when one grasps that their foundations contradict.

If all is an illusion how can we know that unless we also have knowledge of what reality is? So on that point it fails.

How do I know when I'm dreaming? Well I wake up. Yet it could then be argued well perhaps you're dreaming you're awake but then reside in a dream state where all is an illusion? Much like the "I dreamed I was a butterfly or am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a man?" story which I would reply, "Are you asking me, the man, or me the butterfly?"

If all is an illusion then what are you all doing in my illusion?

Another gem is the blind men feeling an elephant and they all think its various parts are something different which is supposed to demonstrate how truth is relative to each individual yet that story fails because those men are blind and we can see that it's an elephant. Reality tells us it's an elephant.

Truth cannot be relative as in Eastern beliefs because it fails once you disagree with a Hindu and they seek to argue their point.

If truth is relative, in that what's true for you may not be what's true for me then I can state that you're wrong and you must agree with me. If not then you have violated your own belief that truth is relative. So one cannot live based on relative truth for one second for that world view fails to support its first principles.

Christianity is attacked because it claims to be exclusive, to hold Absolute Truth, God being the giver of that Truth.

Other beliefs claim to be "all inclusive" yet a Christian cannot become a Buddhist while still holding to his or her Christian beliefs. In other words it's all inclusive as long as you believe what that group believes.

Truth by its very nature is exclusive, not all inclusive.

[edit on 22-1-2008 by SilverSmith]

reply to post by Kyuubi


it's just the easiest target.
and there'd be a hell of a lot of hypocrisy floating around if someone started a thread which discussed taoism or hinduism, as members of other religions would attack them as being illogical without applying the same standards to their own beliefs

we discuss christianity because we are discussing it mainly with christians.

reply to post by SilverSmith


If you "wake up" when you're not dreaming, is one to presume that, in your dreams, you find yourself asleep? If then, how are you aware of being asleep? And your treatment of the butterfly/man scenario is somewhat flippant. The question is rhetorical, not literal; if it were being addressed to a butterfly or a man, there would naturally be a corresponding, straightforward answer.

All isn't an illusion until one sees it that way. Those who spoke about an illusory reality are those who understood it, and who encouraged others to discover similar through their preferred means. At least, this has been my experience with Eastern thought. The only 'failure' here is in your perception of the concept.
Also, if all is an illusion, it is all an illusion -- notanyone's illusion in particular. The question, "what are you all doing in my illusion?" is moot, because you are part of that illusion.

You also seem to be assuming the existence of an 'absolute' truth; one which can be proselytized. This is erroneous: a truism is formed based on privately verified experiences. A Hindu's beliefs are just as valid as a Christian's. Some schools of thought (like Buddhism) choose to respect these differences, because it is understood that the end-goal is the same. You should remember that a difference in opinion doesn't mean that both people are 'wrong.'

I don't know what experiences you have had with Buddhism -- since you mention it specifically -- but I would encourage you to read up more on it.

Christianity insists that their God is the only God, and therefore everyone who doesn't believe in 'him' should (and will) be condemned. The Eastern thoughts I'm familiar with do not hold such an exclusive view of deities, nor do they demand acceptance by the general populace.

I would also encourage the OP to do some reading on other religions as well -- I won't specify which, as I don't follow any particular one. You may find that the depiction of 'God' is wholly different from the Christian version you may be familiar with.

Originally posted by Mr Jackdaw
reply to post by SilverSmith

 

Christianity insists that their God is the only God, and therefore everyone who doesn't believe in 'him' should (and will) be condemned. The Eastern thoughts I'm familiar with do not hold such an exclusive view of deities, nor do they demand acceptance by the general populace.

Don't know where you are getting your information but christianity is definitely not the only faith that insists that their God is the only God. Read the second largest religion in the world's holy book, the Koran, for example. ""Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate." That was just one quote from the Koran. It seems you have not studied any other religion or you are just making up facts.

I believe you incorrectly read my post -- as I initially did yours.

The statement wasn't that Christianity is the only religion that does so; it was that Christians lay claim to 'the only true God,' much like some other religions do (as you illustrated).

Christians aren't necessarily the most vocal about their beliefs. Here in the United States, Christianity is very visible because it is rather tied into the nation's beginnings, and the country has a predominantly Christian population.

[edit on 1/22/2008 by Mr Jackdaw]

Originally posted by Mr Jackdaw

If you "wake up" when you're not dreaming, is one to presume that, in your dreams, you find yourself asleep?

All isn't an illusion until one sees it that way. Those who spoke about an illusory reality are those who understood it, and who encouraged others to discover similar through their preferred means.

You also seem to be assuming the existence of an 'absolute' truth; one which can be proselytized. This is erroneous:

First, define "wake up"?

Secondly, who are "they" seeking to encourage of this "illusory reality"? People in reality or those in their illusion of reality?

Lastly, you state that that I'm "assuming the existence of an 'absolute' truth; one which can be proselytized" and in your words that would be "erroneous". My question than to you is this, is that absolutely true?

Originally posted by Kyuubi
But seriously. It seems as though when people are trying to prove or disprove the existence of God, they're only attacking the God of the Bible.

Pretty much. The idea of a 'Man in the clouds' is also prevalent in people's minds, therefore they claim 'God does not exist, because I see no great man in the clouds.'

The Christian bible also states that God will smite you down for committing certain sins, which any sinner knows, isn't true. We learn at an early age that God is not going to punish us for sins, so alot of people lose their notion of a conscious, all-pervasive spirit, and simply claim God does not exist.


The REAL God, is the God that Islam and Christianity ATTEMPT to worship, but they have been lead astray by institutions and manipulations. The REAL GOD has nothing to do whatsoever with organized religion, the Real God is our multi-dimensional universe, in all it's glory, in all it's infinite power, it is an idea that is incomprehensible for our minds.

So to me, it is not great mystery why people are atheists or don't believe in God. They don't believe in a multidimensional God, they believe the Universe is a material accident etc. It's VERY hard to discuss the notion of God with true believers, let alone people who are already bitterly opposed to the notion of God due to their hatred of religion.

It's a frustrating topic.... speaking about God to me is like speaking about everything that is... it's a fullfilling, infinite, spiritual subject.... speaking about God to others is like discussing a fairy tale and it feels pointless.

Sometimes, I give the Bible credit for one thing... it states that you cannot force people to see the truth, you can't force them to acknowledge anything. You cannot come to grips with the awesome nature of God through any means except personal examination.


The great tragedy with organized religion in all it's forms is that it can fool the followers into seeking God outside of themself. They must appeal to priests, 'experts' for attainment of God. This is directly opposite of true religion.

I also find it a great tragedy how Christians or other religious people might claim that theyre book is the literal word of God. Not only is that fanciful, it's arrogant and haughty. The Bible was not written by God, it was written by men who were greatly intoxicated (in a good way) with their understanding of God. To claim that the Bible is the literal word of God and those who do not accept Jesus cannot attain true God is just another symptom of organized religion. Again, it's an ironic tragedy.

Good thread.

[edit on 22-1-2008 by NewWorldOver]

reply to post by SilverSmith


I think you would have to define "wake up", as it was originally your statement, viz:

How do I know when I'm dreaming? Well I wake up.

Secondly, You still appear eager to assign this 'illusion' to someone's care ("People in reality or those in their illusion of reality?"). The discussed illusion is the permanence of life; the encouragement is to understand that there is more to existence than 'security' in the form of acute materialism. "Illusion" should not be explicitly (or conveniently) translated as 'tangible' illusions or mirages.

Lastly, Truth is an understanding of an event/events, not a fact: this is because even lies can be supported by evidence (See hoaxes).

The 'relativity' of truth implies a variance of 'truth' from individual to individual. Everyone will arrive at conclusions that are unique to their experiences. You can't tell someone they are wrong, unless you have actual knowledge about what you are refuting.

I was hasty in my first post, and I apologize for the (third) statement you addressed; it incorrectly depicted my views. I was unsure about the context of some aspects of your post, and I responded based on a few assumptions of my own. With those retracted, however, I hope this discussion can continue on a less personal tone -- and in this, I speak only for myself.

[edit on 1/22/2008 by Mr Jackdaw]

Originally posted by Mr Jackdaw
reply to post by SilverSmith

 

I think you would have to define "wake up", as it was originally your statement, viz:

How do I know when I'm dreaming? Well I wake up.

Secondly, You still appear eager to assign this 'illusion' to someone's care ("People in reality or those in their illusion of reality?"). The discussed illusion is the permanence of life; the encouragement is to understand that there is more to existence than 'security' in the form of acute materialism. "Illusion" should not be explicitly (or conveniently) translated as 'tangible' illusions or mirages.

Lastly, Truth is an understanding of an event/events, not a fact: this is because even lies can be supported by evidence (See hoaxes).

The 'relativity' of truth implies a variance of 'truth' from individual to individual. Everyone will arrive at conclusions that are unique to their experiences. You can't tell someone they are wrong, unless you have actual knowledge about what you are refuting.

I was hasty in my first post, and I apologize for the (third) statement you addressed; it incorrectly depicted my views. I was unsure about the context of some aspects of your post, and I responded based on a few assumptions of my own. With those retracted, however, I hope this discussion can continue on a less personal tone -- and in this, I speak only for myself.

[edit on 1/22/2008 by Mr Jackdaw]

I did define "wake up" in my first post as being not asleep. One is either awake or asleep, or perhaps in a coma where one could be either or.

I wish to though concentrate on your definition of "absolute Truth". Are you stating that Truth is not absolute and knowable?

Lastly, "tone" is rather hard to convey in this format and I may be guilty at times for a lack of "text feeling" (for lack of a better word) but I'm in no way seeking to be rude so please don't take anything that way.

I'm sure if I or you or another wish to set a "tone" we would know it

Originally posted by Kyuubi
But seriously. It seems as though when people are trying to prove or disprove the existence of God, they're only attacking the God of the Bible.

That God has been butchered enough. It just seems like we're constantly arguing with close-minded Christians that think they're smart by "proving that God exists".

Does anyone think we should maybe try other religions? Sure, Christianity may be the easiest considering how most Americans are at least born into Christian families and we might know a little about it, but I'd like to see some discussions about the Islamic God or the Hindu Gods or anything else besides Yahweh.

My understanding is simple really. Christianity is being attacked so much because God said it would be.
The Bible reads:
Luke 21:12
"But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name.
Luke 21:17
"All men will hate you because of me."

reply to post by SilverSmith


I didn't think you were rude. My last statement was stated wholly in reference to my posting. I have been rather hasty; I'll work on avoiding that in the future.

You did define 'being awake' as 'not being asleep'. However, the analogy of the dreaming butterfly/man points out that even dreams can appear 'real' to the dreamer. Not every dream is lucid; how do you tell one of those from 'real life'?

I've just spent an inordinate amount of time thinking of the best way to express myself (between the last paragraph and this one).

I've reached the following conclusion; I can't tell you anything about absolute truth because I don't know what it is. And even if I did, I probably wouldn't tell you because you wouldn't understand it -- due to my difficulty in describing it to you. As I have said, it would be a culmination of my experiences; your experiences would have to guide you to the same conclusion. For reference, consider the opening words of the Tao;

Even the finest teaching is not the Tao itself.
Even the finest name is insufficient to define it.
(Stan Rosenthal's Translation).

'Truth' should encompass all fellows. If it favors any group over another, it may be either tainted or incomplete. I proffer this last bit as a 'logical' statement; since we are all co-inhabitants, our understanding should include the world we interact with.

I hope I have been somewhat clearer.

[edit on 1/22/2008 by Mr Jackdaw]

Originally posted by NewWorldOver

The Christian bible also states that God will smite you down for committing certain sins, which any sinner knows, isn't true. We learn at an early age that God is not going to punish us for sins, so alot of people lose their notion of a conscious, all-pervasive spirit, and simply claim God does not exist.

[edit on 22-1-2008 by NewWorldOver]

It would be good if you actually stated some verses from the Bible to back up your statements.
The Bible never states that God will smite people down for sinning. What do you mean by smite? Like, God will strike us with lightning when we sin?
What do you mean at an early age? Like God doesn't punish children?

[edit on 23-1-2008 by ppkjjkpp]

In response to Silversmith's first post, I'm PRETTY SURE Christianity isn't the only religion to claim absolute truth in it's teachings. Seriously, man. Isn't that what most religions are about? They're attempted explanations of what was once unexplainable. These writings claim to hold absolute truth in their explanations and usually threaten followers with eternal suffering if they stray from the "truth".

So, Christianity isn't the only one to claim absolute truth.

As for Jackdaw, I'll take your advice. I know I'll go further into studying other religions, eventually. I was just hoping there would be more discussion about it in these kinds of places.

NewWorldOver..."The REAL God"? Please, don't speak as if what you believe is truth in these kinds of places. Still, I respect what you say about organized religion. I guess I never thought much about how things can be blown outta proportion by a book obviously written by man and very likely altered over time. It's also true what you say about it fooling followers into seeking God outside of themselves. I've noticed it too.

I think agree with ppkjjkpp on some of these things...I'd really like some cited evidence from the Bible.

But seriously, NewWorldOver. "We learn at an early age that God is not going to punish us for sins"?

It may seem that way...but I think you've got it wrong. Most of the time, it is taught that punishment comes in the afterlife and that life, as we know it, is just a test. Even if some Christians realize that God isn't going to punish them because Jesus is going to forgive them, that SO does not go for them losing faith in their God. That just leaves them feeling like they can do anything and still go to Heaven as long as they ask for forgiveness any time between the present and their deathbed.

And ppkjjkpp...Those verses from the Bible you posted; can we get some context? I'm having trouble understanding how you figure God said Christianity is going to be attacked. Who's "they" and "you"? Please, explain some more.

Also, the Bible's original language is Hebrew, which has been lost over the centuries. It still exists...but much of the old language isn't understood, today. It's been lost in translation. The original Hebrew in which the Bible was written isn't completely understood. Some of the symbols in the writing can't even be translated because NO one knows what they mean. This could be the reason for the Bible's imperfection, today. Many things have been omitted and/or changed in the Bibles you read today.

Just wanted to point that out.

Jesus warns us we will be hated on His account. He uses some analogies stating servants and students (Christians) will never be above their master and teacher (Jesus). If they hated Him without cause, they will also hate us because we are far from perfect. If they didn't accept Him, they certainly won't care too much for us.

[edit on 1/24/2008 by AshleyD]

Love one another as you love yourself. Treat others as you want to be treated. Sounds good to me.Simple message. Don't need all this religious nonsense.

Dude, I seriously doubt anyone hates you or Jesus.

I'm sure that if Jesus really DID exist, he wasn't a bad guy. Not bad enough to be hated much, anyway. If it's true all I hear about him helping people and such, he was a great man and shouldn't be hated.

No one said we hated Christians. I know I don't, anyway. Whatever you all are saying about God foretelling the criticism of your religion is nonsense. Those words don't qualify as the foretelling of what's happening in here, at all.

We're not criticizing out of hate but out of the search for truth. We're only expressing our views and discussing the fallacies of certain religions in comparison to science.

reply to post by AshleyD


well, i for one don't think most atheists hate YOU. i actually think you're quite an agreeable individual, our differences of belief aside.

we don't hate the people, just some of the beliefs.
hell, we don't even hate jesus.

[edit on 1/25/08 by madnessinmysoul]

Originally posted by Kyuubi
No one said we hated Christians. I know I don't, anyway. Whatever you all are saying about God foretelling the criticism of your religion is nonsense. Those words don't qualify as the foretelling of what's happening in here, at all.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
[we don't hate the people, just some of the beliefs.
hell, we don't even hate jesus.

Ah, thanks Guys. I think you two are pretty cool, too. But let's clear some thing up. We're not saying "you" hate "us" or even hate "Jesus." When Jesus said "they" hated Him, He was talking about the Jewish leaders who thought He was a false prophet, wanted Him killed, and hated the fact He pointed out their hypocrisy. I don't know how anyone today could read the Bible and "hate" Jesus. He was, as you said, an alright guy. It was a direct reference to the crucifixion that would eventually take place.

We are also told in Ephesians 6 that it is not a matter of people hating people.

But as to Christians being hated. Jesus warned us that those who would kill us would actually think they were doing a service to "God" by doing so. We believe this started only a few years after His ascension when the Sanhedrin and Romans who targeted the budding "cult" of Christianity. It was a death sentence to be a Christian.

It went further during the middle ages when true Christians who followed Jesus' teachings and refused to assimilate with the corrupt government church "system." It continues today in the Middle East in the name of "Allah." It will finally reach a boiling point in the end times.

So, it's not that we are running around thinking we're all martyrs with a victim complex. It's that He said it will happen. Not that every single person who isn't a Christian will hate us just because of Him. Again, He gives us comfort that it's not "us" "they" hate.

EDIT: But the whole point of saying all of that in this thread is this: It's basically OK to rip Christianity to shreds, call it's followers ignorant brainwashed morons, but if you even dare question Islam, Buddhism, or Secularism, you are considered a bigot. Not saying this is what you two are specifically doing. It's just the way it is in the world and the way it has been for a while. No sweat. Our God is not impotent. But it is frustrating when we ask a question about Islam or express dismay about an Islamic terrorist attack in the world and are called bigots or ignorant for asking a question or saying why we honestly don't like it.

[edit on 1/25/2008 by AshleyD]

I think the attact on christians is because its the truth and the bible talk about that it would happen. No where out there do yo find a book like the bible. People attact the bible cause evil wants to disprove God and satan wants to destroy what God has bilt.

But the fact remains you will never stop God or Christ or its believers. we have faith in the one who saves and gives life after death. Its just a choice and truth. If you want to follow buddist or hunduism find believe God's can have sex in heaven. Or that there are many God in heaven. Remember we have enough wars on earth as it is, we dont need it in heaven. If you want to believe that Islam is right believe in killing your children and your own people. That does'nt make it right.

For me I believe God and Christ and we will be attact for our beliefs, so shall we still exist and never stop preachering and saveing.