Originally posted by twitchy
Again, who gives you guys the clout to put a cornerstone or anything under a public building?

That answer to that question is so obvious I am not certain why you even asked it.

It's a relevant question as this monument was probably erected with the usual pomp and circumstance.

Really? What gave you that impression? Was it the fact that the base commander had to pay for it himself?

I know that private institutions often ask Freemasons to consecrate a building, but who the gives you guys the kind of clout it would take to do so to a public structure?

Fine, since you asked twice I will tell you, but you have to promise not to tell.......................come closer...................shhhhhhh.....................the people who own it.

If there is no hierarchy in freemasonry, where the hell did you come from? Even lowly dung beetles and protozoa have a system of hierarchy. If there's no Hierarchy, then me and cleetus can just start our own lodge right there in our backyard and be accepted by the State's Grand Lodge? No? Who says? Hierarchy.

I think this is a moot point for you and Cleetus, judging by your sentiments regarding Masonry, as neither one of you would probably get the required two sponsor's signatures let alone be elected to membership by initiation.

But I will, for the moment, suspend disbelief and assume that you wanted to join Masonry to help your fellow man and better yourself spiritually and therefore found yourself a member. You would need a charter from the Grand Lodge. Ah ha! Hierarchy you say? Yes, but it is not permanent and the officers are voted upon yearly. What does this all mean? I have no clue, you have the belief that having individuals in charge for a limited time somehow leads to......well, I am not quite sure what you think it leads to as you have only made vague generalizations.

Can we get back to the Obelisk, who placed it there and why they chose an obelisk, any ceremony that might have been performed in it's erection, and why you guys seem to think Obelisks aren't masonic all of a sudden?

I have never departed from the topic at hand with discussions of inverted crosses, dung beetles and my drinking buddy Cleetus.

Why do you not start by answering my question: What makes the Trinity Memorial Masonic?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
the Trinity Memorial obelisk is not Masonic...

Proove it. It should be relatively easy for a man of your enlightened status and masonic knowledge. I'd like to see something in the way of undeniable rock solid proof of your asserion aside from posting a link from Tombstone Enthusiasts. You keep saying that the Trinity Memorial is not masonic. Well, let's see what you have to substantiate that.

Originally posted by twitchy
Again, who gives you guys the clout to put a cornerstone or anything under a public building? It's a relevant question as this monument was probably erected with the usual pomp and circumstance. I know that private institutions often ask Freemasons to consecrate a building, but who the gives you guys the kind of clout it would take to do so to a public structure?

Simple. We are ASKED to do so. We do not show up and force ourselves upon public officials insisting that we lay a cornerstone. It's a very old tradition (read S. Brent Morris' book on the subject: "Cornerstones of Freedom.") By the way, at one time the Odd Fellows Lodge (a non-Masonic Order) ALSO laid cornerstones!

If there is no hierarchy in freemasonry,

Who says there's no hierarchy? Of course there is. The Grand Lodge (presided over by The Grand Master and Grand Officers of any given Grand Jurisdiction are the presiding officers).

The Master of the local Lodge is the presiding officer, and it's no democracy. He is MASTER of the Lodge.

BUT, even though the Grand Master is the "boss" (let's say) in his jurisdiction, he is not a "higher degree" Mason than ANY Master Mason.

Can we get back to the Obelisk, who placed it there and why they chose an obelisk, any ceremony that might have been performed in it's erection, and why you guys seem to think Obelisks aren't masonic all of a sudden?

To be honest, I've never given the Obelisk any consideration as it's not a Masonic "emblem" per se. I'm not saying obelisks haven't been erected by Masons, but there is NO degree that I am aware of that says "The emblems of this degree are the trowel, the oblong square, the obelisk" etc. Interestingly, Gould's "Guide to the Royal Arch Chapter" shows an obelisk with Masonic emblems carved into it.

Mackey's "Encyclopedia of Freemasonry" describes the obelisk, gives a bit of history and says "In continental Masonry the monument in the Master's Degree is often made in the form of an obelisk with the letter M.B. inscribed upon it."

It goes on to say "this form is appropriate, because in Masonic, as in Christian, iconography the obelisk is a symbol of the resurrection."

But again, there is never any explanation of the obelisk in Masonic usage. Not any that I've seen anyway. Perhaps someone can enlighten me.

Originally posted by twitchy
So you're saying that the People of the United States ask you guys to consecrate their facilities?

Not all of them. Just some of those empowered from time to time to have certain public structures erected. And NOT ALL public structures HAVE Masonic cornerstones.

What document can I find that in? National Archives? Talmud? Where is that agreement written, and under what authority?

There (of course) isn't any such "agreement." As I said, not all public buildings have a Masonically-laid cornerstone but some do because those charged with seeing these structures erected have ASKED the Masons to do so.

[edit on 24-1-2008 by Appak]

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
I do not need to prove to you a negative and an already known fact; Obelisks are not Masonic, they are Egyptian.

In a formal debate, you debate the proposition. The proposition in this case states that the Trinity Obelisk is Masonic, if you have something to the contrary of the the proposition, well then out with it man, otherwise you tend to loose the debate. Now if the proposition was Obelisks Aren't Masonic, then I would have the burden to disprove it. I will await your Obelisk thread, until then LOL then why linger here making excuses about what you don't need to proove.
Yes I know it's Egyptian, are you now going to tell us about how Egyptian Symbols aren't used in Freemasonry?

Originally posted by NewWorldOver

We aren't FABRICATING information here...

No, but you are diseminating fabricated information though.

Just because masons participate in a dedication ceremony for an obelisk doesnt mean that an obelisk is any more a masonic symbol than a church, hospital, bank or any other building erected with a masonic cornerstone.

Mason...cornerstones...take out the spooky X-factor stuff and the connection is obvious.

As far as being zionist, please...Antisemites paint anybody who dares stand up to their hate a zionist/ZOG/Race traitor etc. The bottom line is we masons are tolerant and that drives the bigots and racists crazy...and frankly that makes us very, very happy !



[edit on 24-1-2008 by RWPBR]

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

I am not demanding anything. I am demonstrating to you that the Trinity Memorial obelisk is not Masonic solely due to the fact that it is an obelisk.

You haven't demonstrated anything. Masonic obelisks are well recorded. To make a connection between an obelisk and masonry is not some grand claim.

To say that an obelisk cannot possibly be masonic, however: IS a grand claim.

Certainly, this is an exercise in futility, something that I have seen the Masonic brigade on ATS devolve MANY a thread into.

Circular debate and endless antagonism does nothing to help any of us. You masons put a SERIOUS damper in the S.S. forum and I'm happy to see other members realize this as well.

[edit on 24-1-2008 by NewWorldOver]

I think I am still on Twitchy's ignore list, which is fine by me.

I'd just like to point out that this is his MO: Make a claim, do not back it up with empirical evidence, reason, or logic, and then claim to have won the debate on the grounds that he asks his opponent to prove a negative.

This, of course, cannot be done, and Twitchy then jumps up and down and says "I won, I won!"

Juvenile at best. I've handed Twitchy's a$$ to him on a platter in a debate, only to have him dismiss my facts and sources, not to mention reasoned commentary, in favor of blatantly ignoring the difference between two totally seperate things (i.e. profits vs. total sales).

He is an instigator, nothing more. He seeks only to ruffle feathers and bad-mouth Masons, in my experience.

I once had a modicum of respect for him, but that has long since faded into a sort of amused indifference.

This thread, and more specifically his volley with Augustus, is evidence of my conclusions.

Trolls are a dime a dozen... don't waste your time on this one.

Originally posted by twitchy
I've read it and seen it (from a distance), thanks for posting it though. Interesting addition to the thread about private construction. Me and Cleetus have never been asked to come out to any public facilities and lay beer cans yet, so maybe I need to learn to scratch more backs.

You may be onto something there. Perhaps you anc Cleetus could start this sort of thing in the private sector.

Heck, you might even become spokesmen for Anheuser-Busch!

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
You masons put a SERIOUS damper in the S.S. forum and I'm happy to see other members realize this as well.

[edit on 24-1-2008 by NewWorldOver]

By damper you mean we have the audacity and unmitigated GALL to join the discussion and demand facts ?

It is a sign that you have lost when you accuse the other side of being a disinfo agent or other such nonsense. it means you have reached the end of you argument. You lost the argument pages ago when it was established that the trinity monument is in fact a cairn ( in spite of what some government flunky says on a website...and why is it the government is only to be believed when they help you make your point and liars the rest of the time ?) and not an obelisk.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Why do I need to prove to you that it is not Masonic?

Yeah why would you want to do that?
Well since you dont' want to offer anything in the way of disproving the masonic signifigance of the obelisk, why don't you expand on the Egyptian Signifigance of the Obelisk for us, and we'll see what the eye in the sky says.

Originally posted by Appak
Heck, you might even become spokesmen for Anheuser-Busch!

You're not far off, I was in a commercial shot for a reigonal Brewery.

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
You haven't demonstrated anything. Masonic obelisks are well recorded. To make a connection between an obelisk and masonry is not some grand claim.

Who said obelisks are not well recorded. It is this very fact that would make it extremly simple for a person to prove that they have been co-opted by Masons as an emblem of the craft. I await the plethora of evidence that will be coming forthwith.

To say that an obelisk cannot possibly be masonic, however: IS a grand claim.

A, singualr, obelisk, yes. All obelisks, no. The Trinty Memorial, it seems, so far it falls under the latter.

Certainly, this is an exercise in futility, something that I have seen the Masonic brigade on ATS devolve MANY a thread into.

Circular debate and endless antagonism does nothing to help any of us. You masons put a SERIOUS damper in the S.S. forum and I'm happy to see other members realize this as well.

The presentation of fact helps all discussions, I see that your post does not provide any. You continue to pule and whine about Masons and how we stifle discussion, yet here you are, even after you said you were done with this thread, not contributing any fact to the arguement. I now await your worthy contribution to this topic.

You have had other Masons state that the obelisk is not a Masonic emblem, but of course you do not take our word for it. I am glad, this means you can take the time to verify our statements with your own research. Everything esoteric regarding Masonry is available to you if you look for it, I would find it hard to believe that the only tidbit of knowledge you think we might be hiding is that obelisks really are Masonic.