Interesting Place to Find a Masonic Obelisk

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posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 10:24 AM
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Originally posted by Radekus

Originally posted by masonica_esoterica

Originally posted by twitchy

It's not just this thread I'm refering to, it's a long story with alot of threads and posts that you may not be aware of, but suffice it to say I am in a long term opposition to Freemasonry and Zionism.



it is not where I am trying to take a thread, it is where you already have taken it.


That's a cheap tactic and you know it. You're obviously one of those people who provokes others into arguing on your own terms,
does not listen to reason, feeds off the other person's emotions,
and in the end says, haha, I showed you. Common, that's really immature. Emotional vampire is what you are, I know your kind.
I feel bad for your children, you must argue with them alot.

[edit on 22-1-2008 by Radekus]


That is by no means a cheap tactic, I am calling someone on something that they said, and holding them accountable for what they have stated, in the course of a thread.I do not feed off of other people's emotions.I try to be civil and rational,and I come to these forums to both learn and educate (to the best of my ability when I know something of a topic, and can make a worthy contribution).Refutation of irrational claims backed by either nonevidence, bigotry (i.e calling me a semitophile, comments lumping Masonry with Zionism), hoaxes,or the standard tactic of making outrageous claims, and then putting the burden of proof on the accused and not the one making wild accusations, is no less or more than should be done for the common good of the boards and the community of posters thereof.

Deny Ignorance, not Spread Ignorance.

By the way it was nice of you to allege that I am an emotional vampire who only posts things to get a rise out of someone and then accuse me of being a bad father, and arguing with my children (who happen to not exist).

Pot, meet Kettle.




posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 10:33 AM
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Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
reply to post by masonica_esoterica
 


Maonica_Esoterica you are way out of line.

You acuse Twitchy of being anti-semite without any provocation whatsoever. It is obvious you are attempting to derail the thread.

Twitchy does tackle some delicate subjects, (ie Kosher tax) but now you are grouping him with anti-semites and anti-masons quoting M&D out of context.

Ask yourself, what have you contributed to this thread so far?

[edit on 22/1/08 by ConspiracyNut23]


I have contributed in trying to eliminate logical fallacies so that what is posted here is accurate and valid.Here is a little tidbit of you, speaking of the (antisemitic propaganda) kosher tax

www.snopes.com...

also

www.adl.org...




The Facts

Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for kashruth (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades. Such symbols as the "kosher certification" emblem of the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations (UOJC), among others, confirm that products are kosher—i.e., that foods and production processes have been inspected by competent rabbis from the respective organizations and found to be in compliance with Jewish dietary law.

The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent. A May 18, 1975 New York Times article reported that the cost to General Foods' "Bird's Eye" Unit, for example, is 6.5 millionths (.0000065) of a cent per item. Furthermore, a representative of the Heinz Company has said that the per item cost is "so small we can't even calculate it," and that such labeling actually makes products less costly by increasing the market for them.

Indeed, according to marketing manager Steven Zamichow, quoted in the Washington Post, "Entenmann's Inc. received kosher certification in 1981 and sales of [its] baked goods 'increased substantially.' " Visits to the Entenmann's plant from a "mashgiach" or kashruth inspector, are provided by the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America. The UOJC is one of several groups that maintain such a kosher inspection service, certifying foods and related products to be in compliance with Jewish dietary laws through all phases of production. The profit from these products goes, of course, to the companies that manufacture them and the stores that sell them, not to "the Jews."




posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 10:39 AM
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Originally posted by NewWorldOver
.

I'm sorry, but this is a CONSPIRACY THEORY FORUM, Masons. You are NOT allowed to call people anti-semitic, anti-masons etc. for simply trying to DISCUSS your organization.



You can question Freemasonry all that you want, you can agree with it or not agree with it philosophically or theologically but the point is when you start with Masonic/Zionism connections, nonexistent kosher tax nonsense,blatant anti semitic rants, reptilian garbage, or other things that are untrue then expect to be called on it.In a court of law the burden of proof lies upon the accuser not the accused.



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy
I did find a couple sources claiming that he was the one that personally funded the stone memorial,


I found only one, a tourist to the Trinity Site reported that Genral Thorlin's contribution was ''chipping in the money''. I will not dispute his involvement with the constuction of the monument.


so if Maj. Gen. Frederick Thorlin was a freemason, than I think it would be pretty conclusive, what do we know about that dude?


No it does not. Firstly, there is no mention of him conceiving the design for the memorial as this is a crucial aspect of the theory. Secondly, and more importantly, it has been shown to you and others that the obelisk, as a Masonic emblem, is not used in regular Masonry. As Masonic Light stated it is used in irregualr Masonry and the fact is that that General Thorlin has not been established as a Mason, let alone and irregular one.

You may continue to assert that the memorial is Masonic, yet you offer no reason other than its shape. Why is an obelisk Masonic when it is not even incorporated into the riutal or degrees of Masonry? There is no mention of obelisks in any of the first three degrees of Masonry which are the foundation of all Masonic ritual. I will ask you once again, why is the Trinity Memorial Masonic?



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 12:32 PM
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I've addressed both Snopes and the ADL regarding the Kosher Scam on this thread. As to Freemasonry and Zionism, well either you don't know alot about your own fraternity or your being dishonest, but Freemasonry is a Zionist organization, your rituals and ceremonies are based on the Kabbalah. Whose temple do you think you're building?


Hobnobbery
There is a clear relationship between Freemasonry, Judaism and International Zionism.

I'd really like to see you stay on topic, but then again if you have something that prooves that Freemasonry doesn't have anything to do with Judaism or Zionism, we'd all love to see that. I think you know better. If you didn't, well here I'll show you....




Now your denial that Freemasonry isn't a Zionist institution either refelcts ignorance, or intentional dishonesty. I hope the former, but suspect the latter.



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
it has been shown to you and others that the obelisk, as a Masonic emblem

LOL yeah you really showed us... where in the thread have you offered anything aside from your free and accepted word to disprove the obelisk is used in Freemasonry. Proove it, I don't take a Freemason's word for anything anymore after I've seen some fo the disinfo you guys sling around here on ATS especially. We had one mason trying to tell us there was no Hierarchy in Freemasonry, we've had another try to tell us that Freemasonry doesn't have anything to do with Judaism or Zionism, now your gonna try to tell us that you guys don't use the Obelisk as a symbol, yet you go around erecting them. Sorry, your word here is as as good as anybody else's words, we're all on the level here.

And by the way, it is a cheap tactic, but one that is going to show you to be dishonest or ignorant because Freemasonry is Zionism, the Blue lodges are a kabalagarten of symbology. Here's an interesting workthat has a whole chapter on Jewish Symbols and Rituals associated with Freemasonry...

And the Acacia Tree contains '___' and 5MEO'___', the most potent hallucinagens known to man. There's your big secret.
Ma Ha Bologna

[edit on 24-1-2008 by twitchy]

[edit on 24-1-2008 by twitchy]



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 01:06 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy

Now your denial that Freemasonry isn't a Zionist institution either refelcts ignorance, or intentional dishonesty. I hope the former, but suspect the latter.


Are you trying to imply that anything whatsoever that has to do with the Bible is supposed to be "Zionist"?

Your denial of this would either indicate dishonesty or gullibility. I would hope it's neither, but I suspect both.



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 01:09 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
Are you trying to imply that anything whatsoever that has to do with the Bible is supposed to be "Zionist"?

LOL that's a really nice try. Uh, no. I'm not implying anything, I'm showing the link between freemasonry and Zionism, and therefore the ignorance or dishonesty of those who would try to claim otherwise.



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 01:12 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy
Proove it, I don't take a Freemason's word for anything anymore after I've seen some fo the disinfo you guys sling around here on ATS especially.


I feel fairly certain that you have proved it to yourself. After scouring the internet the best 'facts' you could discover were that a certain General Thorlin was involved in funding the construction of the memorial. That he has no proven Masonic affiliation fell by the wayside, but why quibble. You were also able to add to your own thread but posting what you believed was an inverted cross, how this relates to obelisks or the Trinity site is still escaping me.


We had one mason trying to tell us there was no Hierarchy in Freemasonry,


There is no permanent hierarchy in Masonry, there are only elected officers who serve a year and are then replaced. Show me otherwise.


we've had another try to tell us that Freemasonry doesn't have anything to do with Judaism or Zionism,


Judaism, yes, in so much that we use the Bible in our lodge meetings and as such it encompasses the Old Testament. Zionism, no, there are no Zionistic preachings or direction given in lodge. If an indvidual member happens to have leanings in this regard, that is his concern. It matters as much to me Masonically as if they were a Libertarian or a vegetarian.


now your gonna try to tell us that you guys don't use the Obelisk as a symbol, yet you go around erecting them.


I am not now going to tell you, I have been telling you, you just seem to want to believe what satisfies your opinion instead of facts. Just because an obelisk is erected in a Masonic corner stone ceremony does not make it Masonic. If the same ceremony is used in the laying of a corner stone for a church, post office or my tool shed does that make any of those edifices Masonic?


Sorry, your word here is as as good as anybody else's words, we're all on the level here.


My word may be equal to yours but my facts are infintely more superior since they are grounded in truth in not my own opinion.


And by the way, it is a cheap tactic, but one that is going to show you to be dishonest or ignorant because Freemasonry is Zionism, the Blue lodges are a kabalagarten of symbology. And the Acacia Tree contains '___' and 5MEO'___', the most potent hallucinagens known to man. There's your big secret.


Who cares what is in acacia? We do not eat it. We also employ candles in our ritual work but they do not end up in our digestive track afterwards.


Ma Ha Bologna


Your wit knows no end my 'angry hippie' friend....peace and love dude, peace and love.



[edit on 24-1-2008 by AugustusMasonicus]

[edit on 24-1-2008 by AugustusMasonicus]



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Who cares what is in acacia? We do not eat it.

Then you've been had. The only light you've obtained is what creeps through the door frame at your local lodge. Maybe you should ask your worshipful grand master why you haven't been initiated into the true esoterica. Apparently you've been left out, perhaps for good reason.



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy

Then you've been had. The only light you've obtained is what creeps through the door frame at your local lodge. Maybe you should ask your worshipful grand master why you haven't been initiated into the true esoterica. Apparently you've been left out, perhaps for good reason.


The next time I see the Most Worshipful Grand Master of Masons for the State of New Jersey I will most certainly inquire of him as to his eating habits regarding the acacia tree. Perhaps he can share some interesting recipes of his own.

[edit on 24-1-2008 by AugustusMasonicus]



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 01:28 PM
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Or maybe he can at least attempt to explain to you the hypocrisy of true initiation verses the ambiguous and wholly useless symbology they hand the lower orders of Masonry. If you didn't know about the signifigance of the Acacia, makes you wonder what else is not being put on the level.



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy
Whose temple do you think you're building?


Oh, oh! Pick me! Pick me! I know !

Those who understand Freemasonry (
) know that we are building OUR OWN SPIRITUAL Temples.

Must be true. It says so in the ritual.



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy
Or maybe he can at least attempt to explain to you the hypocrisy of true initiation verses the ambiguous and wholly useless symbology they hand the lower orders of Masonry.


I have progressed through to the highest order there is in Masonry. There are none higher.



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 01:34 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
I have progressed through to the highest order there is in Masonry. There are none higher.

And I had a dog that lived to be almost 18 years old, he was still neutered and thus impotent though.



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 01:34 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


yes...the third



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 01:41 PM
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reply to post by RWPBR
 


Precisely! I do, however, reamain woefully under-educated in regards my Grand Masters conspicuous consumption of a particular evergreen bush and its alleged relation to Masonry.



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy
I don't take a Freemason's word for anything anymore after I've seen some fo the disinfo you guys sling around here on ATS especially. We had one mason trying to tell us there was no Hierarchy in Freemasonry, we've had another try to tell us that Freemasonry doesn't have anything to do with Judaism or Zionism, now your gonna try to tell us that you guys don't use the Obelisk as a symbol, yet you go around erecting them.


And that's just the tip of the iceberg


This is ATS: a conspiracy theory FORUM for debate and open discussion of theories. I am more comfortable accepting open discussion than outright denial, and it seems so often to me that regular, non-affiliated (non-masons) members are PROGRESSING the discussion of Masonry while others (ahem) are intentionally disrupting it. This is a mild form of disinformation, as it is openly biased, but it is disinfo all the same.

Indeed, Obelisks are a well known Masonic symbol and to state otherwise, is a lie. Like I said before, asking how an obelisk is masonic is such a silly question that it seems like outright denial... there is nothing wrong with a thread about a Masonic obelisk, yet you'll see from looking at this thread how VEHEMENTLY the Masons are opposing ANY talk of their organization:

We aren't FABRICATING information here, we're trying to discuss an OBELISK. To disrupt the discussion by demanding an Obelisk is unrelated to Masonry is just plain silly, and I'm glad that twitchy, among others, hasn't succumbed to this effort to derail yet another Mason thread.

Open discussion for all. Take it or leave it.



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 02:00 PM
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Again, who gives you guys the clout to put a cornerstone or anything under a public building? It's a relevant question as this monument was probably erected with the usual pomp and circumstance. I know that private institutions often ask Freemasons to consecrate a building, but who the gives you guys the kind of clout it would take to do so to a public structure? If there is no hierarchy in freemasonry, where the hell did you come from? Even lowly dung beetles and protozoa have a system of hierarchy. If there's no Hierarchy, then me and cleetus can just start our own lodge right there in our backyard and be accepted by the State's Grand Lodge? No? Who says? Hierarchy.
Can we get back to the Obelisk, who placed it there and why they chose an obelisk, any ceremony that might have been performed in it's erection, and why you guys seem to think Obelisks aren't masonic all of a sudden?



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by NewWorldOver
Indeed, Obelisks are a well known Masonic symbol and to state otherwise, is a lie. Like I said before, asking how an obelisk is masonic is such a silly question that it seems like outright denial... there is nothing wrong with a thread about a Masonic obelisk, yet you'll see from looking at this thread how VEHEMENTLY the Masons are opposing ANY talk of their organization:


If it is so silly why do you not list your enormous amount of data proving me wrong? Please, take a cue from yourself and advance the discussion. Instead of asserting something is so, provide proof. You have yet to tell me why the Trinity memorial is Masonic other then repeatedly stating that obelisks are Masonic and therefore it is so.

Please take the time to read this paragraph from the Association of Gravestone Studies, an orginization which I am fairly certain has no Masonic affiliation.


The Obelisk

The obelisk is, to quote McDowell and Meyer in The Revival Styles in American Memorial Art, one of the "most pervasive of all the revival forms" of cemetery art. There is hardly a cemetery founded in the 1840s and 50s without some form of Egyptian influence in the public buildings, gates, tomb art, etc. Napoleon's 1798-99 Egyptian campaigns, the discoveries at the tombs of the Pharaohs, and our new Republic's need to borrow the best of the ancient cultures (Greek revival, classic revival, the prominence of classical studies and dress, etc.) led to a resurgence of interest in the ancient Egyptian culture. Obelisks were considered to be tasteful, with pure uplifting lines, associated with ancient greatness, patriotic, able to be used in relatively small spaces, and, perhaps most importantly, obelisks were less costly than large and elaborate sculpted monuments. There were many cultural reasons for the revival styles of the nineteenth century. Freemasonry, while part of the overall cultural influence, was not responsible for the prevalence of obelisks. If you would like to read more about some of these styles, see The Egyptian Revival: Its Sources, Monuments and Meaning, 1808-1859, by Richard Carrott.


bold highlights are mine




We aren't FABRICATING information here,


Neither are you providing proof of your erroneous position, which to me is no different.


we're trying to discuss an OBELISK. To disrupt the discussion by demanding an Obelisk is unrelated to Masonry is just plain silly, and I'm glad that twitchy, among others, hasn't succumbed to this effort to derail yet another Mason thread.


I am not demanding anything. I am demonstrating to you that the Trinity Memorial obelisk is not Masonic solely due to the fact that it is an obelisk. You are the one that needs to provide fact to support your assertion that obelisks are Masonic when they do not even appear in any lodge that I have seen or heard of. Furthermore, there is only one mention of an obelisk in Masonic degree work and that takes place in an appendant degree and only minorly at that.

You can continue to cover your ears and shout 'la,la,la' but my question to you is still unanswered: What makes the Trinity Memorial Masonic?

Answer it, but I have a feeling you can not.




[edit on 24-1-2008 by AugustusMasonicus]






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