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Interesting Place to Find a Masonic Obelisk

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posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 03:24 AM
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Originally posted by senrak
OFFICIAL publication of the Supreme Council (the very S.C. that twitchy asked about above) I would further point out (as I said previously) ANYONE can purchase the book.

When I asked if anyone had intimate knowledge of the Symbolism employed by the Supreme Council, perhaps I should have been more specific. You're not a member of the supreme council? You have a book. I have lots of books too. I take it you don't have a copy of this book...


On the top of the obelisk is sometimes seen an urn pierced by a sword. In the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, an entire degree has been consecrated to the subject of the Hiramic Monument.
-Albert Gallatin Mackey

You know as well as I do that there are some things that aren't published in masonic literature, G-D knows that.
Again there's plenty of evidence that the Obelisk is used, quite commonly, in masonic memorials and dedications. I'd venture to say you'd be hard pressed to find any other group of folks going around erecting obelisks. Care to name any groups that do besides Freemasonry?
(aside from this dude btno.blogspot.com...)


Cemetery Iconography
Obelisk - Eternal life Very very common ( this is a masonic symbol and that is why the Washington Monument's shape was made. Also why some folks protested it!) It points toward heaven unfailing. However it was popular enough that people chose it for its looks. But check for Masonic ties just in case.

Here's some more Unmistakably Masonic References to Cleopatra's Needle...


About.com
If further proof were needed, it has been preserved for us in the imperishable stones of Egypt. 25 The famous obelisk, known as Cleopatra's Needle, now in Central Park, New York, the gift to our nation from Ismail, Khedive of Egypt in 1878, is a mute but eloquent witness of the antiquity of the simple symbols of the Mason....
It was removed to Alexandria and re-erected by a Roman architect and engineer named Pontius, B. C. 22. When it was taken down in 1879 to be brought to America, all the emblems of the builders were found in the foundation. The rough Cube and the polished Cube in pure white limestone, the Square cut in syenite, an iron Trowel, a lead Plummet, the arc of a Circle, the serpent-symbols of Wisdom, a stone Trestle-board, a stone bearing the Master's Mark, and a hieroglyphic word meaning Temple -all so placed and preserved as to show, beyond doubt, that they had high symbolic meaning. Whether they were in the original foundation, or were placed there when the obelisk was removed, no one can tell. Nevertheless, they were there, concrete witnesses of the fact that the builders worked in the light of a mystical faith, of which they were emblems....
The obelisk in Central Park, the expenses for removing which were paid by W. H. Vanderbilt, was examined by the Grand Lodge of New York, and its emblems pronounced to be unmistakably Masonic. This book gives full account of all obelisks brought to Europe from Egypt, their measurements, inscriptions, and transportation.


Yet another Source discussing the Masonic Importance of the Obelisk...


Source
According to Cathy Burns in the book, “Masonic and Occult Symbols Illustrated” , this practice has been transmitted over the centuries in the occultic societies who also “face the obelisk” daily. Here the obelisk represented the phallus of Osiris which was cut into fourteen parts.



Source
It is claimed that the word 'obelisk' literally means 'Baal's shaft' or 'Baal's organ of reproduction'. Source: Masonic and Occult Symbols Illustrated, by Dr. Cathy Burns, pg. 341.

And another...


Source
a photograph of the Agapé Lodge altar dating from the 40's shows black and white obelisks to the right and left of the altar, respectively. It is possible that the photograph captured an error made in setting up the arrangement, because Soror Meral maintains that the white obelisk was always placed to the right of the altar for Masses at Agapé Lodge.



Source
The obelisk has been a part of pagan worship from the days of antiquity. Diodorus spoke of an obelisk 130 feet high, which was erected by Queen Semiramis in Babylon. Obelisks have played a large part in the worship of Egypt. Many of these Egyptian obelisks remain in Egypt, but some were transported to other nations—one is in Central Park in New York, another in London, while another was transported to St. Peter’s Square in Rome!
Originally, the obelisk was associated with sun worship. Pagans believed that the obelisk also had a sexual significance. Realizing that through sexual union life was produced, the phallus was considered, along with the sun, a symbol of life. These were beliefs represented by the obelisk. The word ‘images’ in the Bible is translated from several different Hebrew words. One of these words ‘matzebah’, means ‘standing images’ or ‘obelisks’.


Abraham Zapruder - 32 degree mason... is that true?

Here's another interesting place to find one...
ISRAELI SUPREME COURT


A few have you have been kind enough to at least admit the Washington Monument is Masonic, here's some intersting trivia for this Masonic Obelisk which by law must remain the tallest structure in the District of Ishtar, or Isis.. I mean Columbia...


www.geocities.com...
The Washington Monument is 555 feet in visible height (6,660 inches). However tourist guides to the obelisk tell us that 20% of its overall height forms part of the foundations in order to stabilise the monument. Thus the true height of the obelisk is 666 feet



Source
"... The true center of spiritual and political power resides only in the Freemason Temple of Understanding, located 13 blocks north of the White House, and directly in line with the massive obelisk known as the Washington Monument. Occultists believe that the spirit of the Sun God 'Ra' indwells the obelisk, and that the 'Elect' must bow down before it twice to three times daily. Thus, the Washington Monument, the obelisk, is in direct line with the Congress to its East, and with the Freemason Temple directly North. The White House is not in direct line with the obelisk, which is very revealing as to the planned center of power."

Shall I continue, or can we at least get past this bullocks about Obelisks not being used in Freemasonry?




posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 06:13 AM
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Yes this is crazy, still trying to deny that obelisks got nothing to do with masons.

Plenty of references of obelisks used by masons for various ritual uses.

Why are you trying to deny their use by masons ?
Is there something to hide?

O and by the way, nobody said that masons are evil because they use obelisks.
We just try to find out why they use them, and why they possibly placed one on this atomic bomb site.

I gues some of you like to stick to:

-This is not an obelisk

-Masons dont use obelisks

-Ok, ok we erect them but for non ritual uses, decoration !?



posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 07:29 AM
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reply to post by twitchy
 




a photograph of the Agapé Lodge altar dating from the 40's shows black and white obelisks to the right and left of the altar, respectively. It is possible that the photograph captured an error made in setting up the arrangement, because Soror Meral maintains that the white obelisk was always placed to the right of the altar for Masses at Agapé Lodge.


The Agape Lodge is not Freemasonry it is OTO, two totally different things, and many Freemasons consider the OTO to be clandestine Freemasonry.The OTO can claim something is Masonic until they are blue in the face,that does not make it so because the OTO holds zero authority in Freemasonry.


users.erols.com...


t is interesting to note that in this same year (1919) in a letter, Crowley referred to regular 32° Scottish Rite Masons in America as "so many pieces of rather nasty dirt." In another letter Crowley wrote: "Affiliate Frank Lodge but rub it into him that even our eighth degree wipes its arse with the thirty third. As you and I need toilet paper, they can give us or sell us their dirty sheep skin." And in yet another letter of 1919:

"My point about our 33rd is this, that we cannot admit that any one soever is higher in Masonry than ourselves ... My idea is to hele the breach with Memphis and Mizraim; these rites, though messy, keep going. Now I am Patriarch Grand Administrator General, and can be S.G.M.G. at the election, which, by the way is overdue. Now I propose that the Scottish Rite absorb M. and M., conferring all its degrees formally upon their 32nds. Our price for this is seats on the S.C. of the Scottish in America. Otherwise, we use our energy to run every rite, Scottish and the rest, on our own ... Remember, we don't admit that their rite is any good until it has our O.K. Theirs is a forged charter."

In other words, Crowley was at this time attempting to gain a seat on the Supreme Council of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite in the Northern Jurisdiction in the USA. This is another instance that showed his incredible idiocy relative to Freemasonry. It was for this reason, among others, that he re-wrote the Minerval through third degrees of the O.T.O. He abandoned the project when it became clear to him that his scheme could not work.


also


Aleister Crowley pretending to be a Freemason.

While Crowley was never a member of any legitimate Masonic Lodge, he gloried in the titles of the Scottish Rite and the Antient and Primitive Rite and made several remarkable comments about Freemasonry in his autobiography (or autohagiography, as he called it) as well as in his Equinox. See The Confessions of Aleister Crowley Chapter 72, etc.). His remarks on Freemasonry show a profound lack of knowledge on the subject. He believed, for instance that by merely sitting in Lodge with one irregular "mason" that any and all genuine Masons thereby became "automatically excommunicated" from their Regular Lodges. And further, that any Mason or Masons that they sat with in any Lodge would also be "automatically excommunicated" and so on (see Confessions, Chapt. 72, pp. 695-697). Crowley may only be excused for such idiocy only by the fact that he himself was never a member of any regular Masonic Lodge and actually knew very little about Masonic law, history and custom. He did know that he was not a regular Mason and inquired of the Grand Secretary of the United Grand Lodge of England how to heal his situation, but he never did do anything about it


Once again you have showed your research to be of poor quality and teeming with logical fallacies.

[edit on 29-1-2008 by masonica_esoterica]



posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 07:57 AM
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Originally posted by twitchy
When I asked if anyone had intimate knowledge of the Symbolism employed by the Supreme Council, perhaps I should have been more specific. You're not a member of the supreme council?


Well, that's damned funny to me. I send them my membership dues EVERY year and have since 1991. In 2001 this same Supreme Council that I'm not a member of bestowed upon me the rank of "Knight Commander of the Court of Honor" (K.C.C.H.) I attend meetings at the Supreme Council (the one I'm not a member of) headquarters in Washington D.C. at least once a year and have studied in it's library often. You really should know what you're talking about twitchy, before you post.



You have a book. I have lots of books too.


A book officially authorized by the Supreme Council. You're just being a smart aleck now. It's truly unbecoming.



I take it you don't have a copy of this book...
"On the top of the obelisk is sometimes seen an urn pierced by a sword. In the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, an entire degree has been consecrated to the subject of the Hiramic Monument.
-Albert Gallatin Mackey


I have several of Dr. Mackey's books. This is a reference to either the degree of Perfect Master and specifically to the funeral ceremony of Hiram, the builder. In fact in the book I have (you know, the one published by The Supreme Council to which I don't belong!)
shows a diagram of the setting described on page 165.

Interestingly the "emblems" of the Fifth Degree are, the three circles enclosing the cube; the green cord; the acacia and wheat; the square, compasses, gavel and rule.



You know as well as I do that there are some things that aren't published in masonic literature, G-D knows that.


Oh, so now it's secret, right? ALL OF OUR EMBLEMS ARE PUBLISHED.



Again there's plenty of evidence that the Obelisk is used, quite commonly, in masonic memorials and dedications.


Twitchy who the hell said they WEREN'T ? ? ? ? ? We've ALL said they are. What an obelisk is NOT is a Masonic "emblem."

How hard is it to understand twitchy, Yes, obelisks have been erected by Masons.

No, the obelisk is NOT a Masonic "emblem." It's just a monument. If we started setting up huge square blocks of granite instead, would the "huge square block of granite" suddenly become a "Masonic emblem?" [shrug]

How hard is it to understand twitchy, Yes, obelisks have been erected by Masons.


I'd venture to say you'd be hard pressed to find any other group of folks going around erecting obelisks. Care to name any groups that do besides Freemasonry?


City governments, state governments, the U.S. Government at various memorials, state parks, national cemeteries, etc.

Private and city cemeteries (My family was in the funeral industry, I've seen hundreds of obelisks at cemeteries) Drive through a big one some time...you'll see 'em too) There's a big Catholic cemetery in my town with a huge obelisk that has a Crucifix on it (!)

I believe it was erected by the Vincentians when St. Vincent's Seminary was still active.

Doubt any Masons were involved in THAT one!

But, I'll tell you what. You go on thinking that only Freemasons are privy to the authority to erect obelisks and that every obelisk extant has been erected with full Masonic honors.

In the mean time, I'm going to call a friend of mine who works at the Supreme Council building in D.C. and a) ask him why they're hiding the obelisk symbolism and b) what they've been doing with the checks I send them each year if I'm not a member.

ta ta twitchy. It's been....strange.



posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 08:01 AM
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Originally posted by jaamaan
Yes this is crazy, still trying to deny that obelisks got nothing to do with masons.
Plenty of references of obelisks used by masons for various ritual uses.


Not me. I don't deny we have erected them at all.

But they are not a Masonic "emblem" period. There is no "explanation" of the symbolism of the obelisk in Masonic ritual. So they are not (as you say) "used...for various ritual uses"

How can you say that unless you yourself have experienced (witnessed) Masonic ritual?

Lots of people have erected obelisks...Masons included. My own Supreme Council included (actually I think someone else actually "erected" it. Those guys don't look like they got too dirty during the job) but we did dedicate it.

We do the same with cornerstones (as discussed umpteen pages ago) but cornerstones are not "Masonic emblems" nor are they used for "ritual purposes."

People simply do not understand what Masonic "ritual" is.

I suppose that's for the best. Twitchy wouldn't have racked up so many points here otherwise.

ta ta!



posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 08:08 AM
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reply to post by twitchy
 


Here is a test for you mate!

If the obelisk is complimented by some kind of feminine symbol ie: a dome, or statue of liberty, lady justice etc. Then yes it is a hidden language being expressed. Masonic? I dont know. Im not big on the idea of freemasons being an evil dark organization. However, I do believe the real sinister secret societies use the masonic way of life as a cloak. Who could argue with a fraternal order(secret society) that does good in society? You cant. You would be surprised how powerful, complicated, and intricate subconcious programming can be.



posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 12:36 PM
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Originally posted by fastwalker23
However, I do believe the real sinister secret societies use the masonic way of life as a cloak.

err...what 'real sinister secret societies' are you referring to?


Who could argue with a fraternal order(secret society) that does good in society?

19 pages of thread ... and you're just now bringing that question up?

Your pal,
Meat.



posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 05:35 PM
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originally posted by twitchy
A few have you have been kind enough to at least admit the Washington Monument is Masonic, here's some intersting trivia for this Masonic Obelisk which by law must remain the tallest structure in the District of Ishtar, or Isis.. I mean Columbia...


While the honoree of the Washington Monument and the designer were indeed Masons it is not Masonic per se. A structure can be designed by a Mason but hold no overt Masonic symbolism. By the addmission of the designer it was instead meant to evoke the grandeur of past great civilizations.



Mills, who was then 29 years of age, had been appointed that same year as the Nation's first Federal architect by President Andrew Jackson. Mills was to achieve additional fame for his work on other Federal buildings of the Nation's Capital including the old U. S. Post Office, the Patent Office, and the Treasury Building.

Mills' design for a memorial to Washington was blend of Greek, Babylonian and Egyptian architecture. Its enormous circular base was a temple—like building 200 feet in diameter and 100 feet tall. Around the rotunda were to be 30 massive columns, 12 feet in diameter. At the outer ring statues were to be placed of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, Revolutionary War heroes, and Washington himself. Mills called the design a "National Pantheon." From the center of the rotunda was to rise a four—sided obelisk, or shaft, to a total height of 600 feet. A "railway" was to transport visitors to an observatory to be located atop the monument. Mills estimated its cost to be $1 million.


If one wished to see a truly Masonic monument dedicated to our nations first president all one would have to do is visit the George Washington Masonic National Memorial located in Alexandria, Virginia.

Washingotn Masonic Memorial

Brother Mills actually did design a monument for George Washington that was very much Masonic in execution. This edifice was constructed in Baltimore and incorporated several elements that contained Masonic symbolism, most of all its main body; a Doric column, the best proportioned of all the orders.

Baltimore's Masonic Washington Monument



originally posted by twitchy

www.geocities.com...
The Washington Monument is 555 feet in visible height (6,660 inches). However tourist guides to the obelisk tell us that 20% of its overall height forms part of the foundations in order to stabilise the monument. Thus the true height of the obelisk is 666 feet


The total height of the Washingotn Monument as communicated through you and garnered from the website you listed is grossly exagerated. While the dimensions of the monument above ground are indeed 555' the foundation does not extend an additional 111' below the surface.


In the operation involving the widening of the foundation immediately below the shaft, 2,098 cubic yards of rubble masonry were removed and 3,489 cubic yards of concrete built into the new work. Fifty-one per cent of the contents of the old foundation were removed and 48 per cent of the area of the base of the shaft undermined. The overall area of the foundations, including both the old and the new, were extended to 16,000 square feet and the depth to 36 feet, 10 inches.




Please peruse the official site of the Washingotn Monument as it has facts pertaining to the Monument's construction which are unbiased and uninfluenced by anti-Masonic sentiments and propaganda.

Official website of the Washington Monument

[edit on 29-1-2008 by AugustusMasonicus]



posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by jaamaan
Yes this is crazy, still trying to deny that obelisks got nothing to do with masons.

Plenty of references of obelisks used by masons for various ritual uses.

Why are you trying to deny their use by masons ?
Is there something to hide?



I'm not sure they can even deny that obelisks are related to masonry anymore. We've established that. They are trying to deny involvement of freemasons in this particular monument, which has already been established since page 1.

I don't think they have anything to 'hide'. They are just so knee-jerk reactionary to any thread involving Masonry that they would rather deny involvement for 12+ pages like their life depended on it, than allow for a balanced, unbiased conversation of masonry and obelisks.

They are inherently incapable of being unbiased or allowing for tempered discussion because of the fact that they feel they are somehow representing freemasonry as a whole... which is like posturing for the President of the U.S. because you're a government employee.

Yes, we have established the masonic symbols have been correlated to obelisks time and again, yet the knee-jerk reactionary arguing continues.



posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 06:03 PM
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reply to post by NewWorldOver
 


I did not see where you provided any information supporting your assertions. Can you please direct me to the relevant posts where you did?

You continually bemoan all participation by Masons on this thread as well as others as not being germaine or contributing to the topic at hand. Yet here you are committing the exact same action you so frequently and tediously decry.



posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 07:09 PM
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reply to post by ConspiracyNut23
 


Source: Richard Rhodes, The Making of the Atomic Bomb (New York: Simon and Shuster, 1986). pp. 571-572.

Planning began in March 1944 for a full-scale test of an implosion weapon. Sometime between March and October Oppenheimer proposed a code name for that test. The first man-made nuclear explosion would be a historic event and its designation therefore a name that history might remember. Oppenheimer coded the test and the test site Trinity. Groves wrote him in 1962 to find out why, speculating that he chose the name because it is common to rivers and peaks in the American West and would be inconspicuous.

"I did suggest it," Oppenheimer responded, "but not on [that] ground... Why I chose the name is not clear, but I know what thoughts were in my mind. There is a poem of John Donne, written just before his death, which I know and love. From it a quotation:

As West and East
In all flatt Maps—and I am one—are on,
So death doth touch the Resurrection."

The poem was Donne's "Hymne to God My God, in My Sicknesse," and among its subtleties it construes a complimentarity that parallels the complimentarity of the bomb that [Niels] Bohr had recently revealed to Oppenheimer. ("Bohr was deeply in this," [Hans] Bethe testifies, "and this was his real interest, and Bohr had long conversations with Oppenheimer which brought Oppenheimer into this at a very early stage. Oppenheimer was very much indoctrinated by Bohr's ideas of international control.") That dying leads to death but might also lead to resurrection -- as the bomb for Bohr and Oppenheimer was a weapon of death that might also end war and redeem mankind -- is one way the poem expresses the paradox.

"That still does not make a trinity," Oppenheimer's letter to Groves goes on, "but in another, better known devotional poem Donne Opens, 'Batter my heart, my three person'd God;--.' Beyond this, I have no clies whatever." Nor must Groves have had; but the fourteenth of Conne's Holy Sonnets equally explores the theme of a destruction that might also redeem:


At this point, the poem quoted here is reprinted. The text then goes on:


That is poetry perhaps martial enough, ardent enough and sufficiently fraught with paradox to supply a code name for the first secret test of a millenial force newly visited upon the world.


So while I can reasonably accept that the poem had an influence on Oppenheimer's choice for a code name, it would seem to me that it had nothing to do with Masonry; ergo that argument for the connection between the test site -- and by proxy, the monument -- and Freemasonry is pretty well disproved.

Thank you, CT23 for hooking me up there.


[edit on 1/29/08 by The Axeman]



posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 11:00 PM
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Who erected this Obelisk? If the answer to that question is "I don't know." then in order for ANY of us to avoid talking from our posteriors, we need more information. I've dug and dug and dug looking for any reference to the actual erection of this particular monument and I've come up with nothing so far that is conclusive. It's quite possible that whoever erected it, and dedicated it, or even consecrated it, didn't want to be attributed to it. Little wonder considering the negative attention this particular monument seems to attract from protestors and the like.
As to the Washignton Monument, saying it isn't Masonic is alot like saying Donald Duck isn't Walt Disney... Indeed he isn't.



posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 11:06 PM
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Originally posted by NewWorldOver
I'm not sure they can even deny that obelisks are related to masonry anymore.


Dude, no one ever said that there was no relation between obelisks and Masonry. Obelisks are not used in any Masonic ritual I know of, but have been used as monuments (!) and/or ornamentation.


We've established that.


You've established nothing, except the fact that you are an instigator. WE have established that the original post is invalid. Period. All I've seen you do in this thread is whine about us "bullies." Put up or shut up.


They are trying to deny involvement of freemasons in this particular monument, which has already been established since page 1.


That's right! That's the thread topic. So yes, we have (effectively) argued the position that the obelisk referred to in the OP is *not* Masonic. That, and also demonstrated that obelisks are not ipso facto Masonic.

Unless, of course, you can reasonably show otherwise.


I don't think they have anything to 'hide'. They are just so knee-jerk reactionary to any thread involving Masonry that they would rather deny involvement for 12+ pages like their life depended on it, than allow for a balanced, unbiased conversation of masonry and obelisks.


LMFAO @ "balanced" and "unbiased" -- who are you, Fox News?!


We have given facts and insights that are of value to those who are truly interested in the topic at hand on an academic level; not much use to those pushing an agenda, or simply baiting people, or otherwise stirring the pot for kicks or whatever.


They are inherently incapable of being unbiased or allowing for tempered discussion because of the fact that they feel they are somehow representing freemasonry as a whole... which is like posturing for the President of the U.S. because you're a government employee.




See, if you are going to try to subtly insult someone, or a group of people, you should make sure not to base your insult on "feelings" which you assign to them or assume. NO ONE speaks for Masonry as a whole, so to insinuate that we "feel" we are speaking for the institution as such is both incorrect and ignorant to what Masonry is all about and what it stands for.

This is not a shock to me, however.



Yes, we have established the masonic symbols have been correlated to obelisks time and again, yet the knee-jerk reactionary arguing continues.


Again, you say "we" as if you had contributed something...


Correlated? Sure, I wrote a whole post explaining how that is; you can read it again here.

What exactly is your point now?

[edit on 1/30/08 by The Axeman]



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 12:05 AM
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Ah
It is so predictable. Like I said, knee-jerk reactionary yammering.

If only you people didn't ruin the Secret Society forum with your ceaseless hemming and hawing. The topic of the thread has been run to death yet you continue to bait yourselves into never-ending quote-fests and back and forth bickering.

How you people do not tire of this activity is beyond me.
Oh the internet. I would love to reviews your frustrated, overly articulated reactionary replies... but these threads just aren't going anywhere and nobody but the Masons and 'anti's' are in here anyway. We know the game. Play on.

[edit on 30-1-2008 by NewWorldOver]



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 12:10 AM
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Originally posted by twitchy
Who erected this Obelisk? If the answer to that question is "I don't know." then in order for ANY of us to avoid talking from our posteriors, we need more information.


I won't say that you're not "talking from your posterior," but it's no secret who erected the monument... in fact, it was pointed out more than once already in this thread.



ERECTED 1965
WHITE SANDS MISSILE RANGE
J. FREDERICK THORLIN
MAJOR GENERAL U.S. ARMY
COMMANDING


Doesn't leave much room for speculation, does it?

It was probably physically built by Army people; that would explain the lack of press coverage. What news outfit would see something worth reporting in a couple of Army Privates stacking up rocks? Besides, the general mood at the time probably would have been a bit critical of a monument dedicated to the first atomic bomb... right?

I don't know why there is little information regarding the actual construction, but my thoughts on it stand to reason. What I do know is that the Army put it up.

Maybe you could FOIA the documents from the office there from 1965... I don't need all that to see what's "written on the wall," however.

Open and shut.

Are we changing the topic of the thread to the Washington Monument? We can do that if you guys want to, but I fear you will simply resort to calling us "bullies" or "hobnobbers" again... because you'll lose that argument too, as Augustus Masonicus has already pointed out.



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 12:32 AM
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Originally posted by The Axeman
Are we changing the topic of the thread to the Washington Monument? We can do that if you guys want to, but I fear you will simply resort to calling us "bullies" or "hobnobbers" again... because you'll lose that argument too, as Augustus Masonicus has already pointed out.


To be honest Axeman, I am not the OP, but if I were, I would take the thread wherever I want. If the thread turns into a discussion about Masons and obelisks in general, so be it. Are you refereeing this thread?

The hobsnobbery is blatant when masons and wannabe masons are snickering in a group and talking amongst each other as if they're feeding on a communal meal so to speak. It's tiresome watching your predatory nature on these forums. You attempt to conquer and destroy EVERY thread relating to masonry and it's simply exhausting to witness.

It's no wonder more people don't get involved.



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 12:44 AM
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Please, play nice.

Courtesy Is Mandatory

Civility & Decorum are Expected

I understand the differences in opinions are many, but, lets keep it cordial.

Cuhail



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 01:47 AM
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Originally posted by twitchy

Cemetery Iconography
Obelisk - Eternal life Very very common ( this is a masonic symbol and that is why the Washington Monument's shape was made. Also why some folks protested it!) It points toward heaven unfailing. However it was popular enough that people chose it for its looks. But check for Masonic ties just in case.


OK, so we go from an altogether unremarkable comment by some website. Who is this guy that he can state as fact that the obelisk is a "Masonic" symbol? He says himself that "it was popular enough that people chose it for its looks."

Hmmm... seems to be common for people to use symbols just because they look nice. Again, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


Here's some more Unmistakably Masonic References to Cleopatra's Needle...

The obelisk in Central Park, the expenses for removing which were paid by W. H. Vanderbilt, was examined by the Grand Lodge of New York, and its emblems pronounced to be unmistakably Masonic. This book gives full account of all obelisks brought to Europe from Egypt, their measurements, inscriptions, and transportation.



Well there you go: The GL of NY didn't say the obelisk was Masonic, simply that some of the emblems upon it were "unmistakably" Masonic in nature. Not surprising considering the status Master Architects must have recieved back then, and the social status of Masons who knew the secrets of geometry, etc. It is probable that these emblems - the square, trowel, etc - may have had a more practical meaning to the Egyptians... however its not altogether unreasonable to think that they may have made the correlation between building in stone and building one's spirit or character.

Still, speculative Masonry is a fairly recent phenomenon, historically speaking, so one must consider carefully before coming to definite conclusions.

What's the point though? Are you attempting to imply that Freemasons originally erected Cleoparta's Needle?

Knight and Lomas might have something to say on the topic, they like zany stories like that.


Yet another Source discussing the Masonic Importance of the Obelisk...


Source
According to Cathy Burns...


Wait: stop right there. Cathy Burns? Are you kidding?


Is Billy Graham promoting the One World Church? Billy Graham and His Friends is a carefully documented expose of Billy Graham's promotion of individuals and organizations that deny that the Lord Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father.

"Billy Graham and His Friends: A Hidden Agenda?"
By Cathy Burns


Discover the in-depth meanings behind the symbols used by the Masons, occultists, witches, New Agers, Satanists, and others. Infiltrators in the Christian establishment mark themselves for their real master with the use of these symbols.

"Masonic and Occult Symbols Illustrated"
By Cathy Burns


Who is the Higher Power of AA? (You will be shocked!) How successful is AA's program? Is alcoholism a disease? Is there a New Age connection?

"Alcoholics Anonymous Unmasked"
By Cathy Burns


Learn about the founder of Mormonism and his interest in magic and occult practices. What talisman did Smith wear? The Masonic connection is also revealed.

"Mormonism, Masonry, and Godhood"
By Cathy Burns


In spite of many plans for a new world order, there is still one obstacle in the way. What--or WHO--is this obstacle? Who will rule? This is an excellent, concise primer about the coming One World Order.

"A One World Order is Coming!"
By Cathy Burns


Dr. Cathy Burns' shocking book, Little Known Facts About Focus on the Family (8 1/2" by 11" pages) identifies and documents the fact that Focus on the Family is promoting anti-Christian values such as: subtle New Age/occult techniques, blasphemous rap music, watering down of the Word of God, humanism, Halloween, and more.

"Little Known Facts About Focus on the Family"
By Cathy Burns


Jeez, man -- you think you could find a source that has at least a little credibility?



Source
It is claimed that the word 'obelisk' literally means 'Baal's shaft' or 'Baal's organ of reproduction'. Source: Masonic and Occult Symbols Illustrated, by Dr. Cathy Burns, pg. 341.


Nope -- Cathy Burns again. This is common with these types of anti-Masonic/conspiracy theory type websites. They all use the same sources, and most of them severely lack any kind of academic credibility.

And another...


Source
...Agapé Lodge...


Done. OTO, not Masonry.



Source


Seriously, I love the websites you dig up for sources. Not that there aren't some points (not what I'd call a scholarly offering, to be sure), but why would you cite a website that makes a statment like the following as an authority on anything?


A close friend of Pope John Paul II is the Dalai Lama, who is the leader of the world’s Buddhists. Buddhism is an avowed enemy of Christianity and has sworn to see her destruction and banishment from this earth.


HAHAHA!!!


Abraham Zapruder - 32 degree mason... is that true?


Jesus, Mary and Joseph! Are you trying to drag the JFK assassination into this too? I have no idea if Zapruder was a Mason or not but it's completely off topic... try to focus, dude. Obelisks.


Here's another interesting place to find one...
ISRAELI SUPREME COURT


Any more interesting than in Australia? France? Belgium? America? Italy? Greece? The Middle East? Or... are your roots showing again?


A few have you have been kind enough to at least admit the Washington Monument is Masonic, here's some intersting trivia for this Masonic Obelisk...


Wrong, as has been shown already.



Source
"... The true center of spiritual and political power resides only in the Freemason Temple of Understanding, blah blah, blah...


Anyone can create a website and rant on about whatever they want -- who's to stop them? Not me, but... that website is, again, not a credible source to be quoting from as fact. I understand that you don't get the concept of "reputable" or "credible" sources, but at least you could try.


Shall I continue, or can we at least get past this bullocks about Obelisks not being used in Freemasonry?


Heh. We've gotten past the bollocks alright. I reckon as long as you keep posting things as fact that are not fact, I'll keep on highlighting the flaws in your arguments, even if you choose not to see it. I understand though; common characteristic of a fragile ego.



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 01:50 AM
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reply to post by NewWorldOver
 


Again, nothing constructive or relevant to the topic. More crying.




Originally posted by NewWorldOver
I am not the OP, but if I were, I would take the thread wherever I want.


Well the OP is not about Washington Monument, so I had resisted going off on that tangent. If we are shifting the topic, then I will leave it to the OP to say so, or at least for the thread to move in that general direction.

Until then, we're on Obelisks and Masonry in general, I think.

Care to offer something?



Originally posted by NewWorldOver
If only you people didn't ruin the Secret Society forum with your ceaseless hemming and hawing.


There's an easy solution: don't come here! I have just as much right to post here as you do, my irritating friend, so if you don't like it, then my suggestion is to find a different forum.

I'm sure you can find a nice board at freemasonrywatch.org or something, where they will be more than happy to have a "balanced" and "unbiased" discussion about Masonry with you. You'd like it.


Vaya con Dios.

[edit on 1/30/08 by The Axeman]



posted on Jan, 30 2008 @ 08:15 AM
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Originally posted by NewWorldOver
It's tiresome watching your predatory nature on these forums.


If you find it so tiresome then why do you continue to subject yourself to the horror that is visiting this forum? Can you actually construct a post which adds to the content of this discussion or will you only continue to reiterate your distatse for Masons and the Fraternity?

With the amount of time you employ in composing your posts you may actually discover some truth if you were so inclined to search for it. Even twitchy, wrong as I feel his points may be, has attempted to do research to help support his viewpoint. Are you capable of performing the same task or will your sole contribution to this thread be stamping your feet and whining?



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