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Interesting Place to Find a Masonic Obelisk

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posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 01:58 AM
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You have much to learn -- as do I, no doubt.

Whether you choose to learn it or not, though, is up to you -- as my own edification is my responsibility.

Believe me, friend, we all have much bigger problems than the local Masons getting together for roast beef and fellowship. Much bigger.

One must marvel at the eagerness of people in general to be distracted from the real problems facing the world. I find comfort in the thought that, upon their jolly quests to prove Masonry the root of all evil, they find some truth of other matters spattered along the way. At least I hope they do, and all this hooey is not for nothing.

I've made my case; take it or leave it. I appreciate you not calling me a liar. I think I have reasonably argued my position, and unless or until someone decides to respond with something other than close-minded religious rhetoric and claims based on emotion rather than investigation, facts, and reasoning, I believe that will be all.

Travel safely, my friend.

[edit on 1/26/08 by The Axeman]




posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 02:04 AM
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Originally posted by IAttackPeople
Wrong. See above.


He can't; he has me on his ignore list because I insinuated that he was a pothead. This was, of course, after a long and thorough debate at the end of which twitchy basically refused to acknowledge the difference between two totally seperate things, and insisted that one was the other, to the point that I thought he must have been stoned.

*shrugs*

I call 'em like I see 'em.

Anyway, he has no idea what I said other than what people have quoted.

[edit on 1/26/08 by The Axeman]



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 09:18 AM
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Thanks for this topic twitchy, it is very illuminating to read.

First i didnt think there would be much to it, this "masonic" obelisk at this boms site, but when i see the way you are beeing attacked the obelisk seems to grow in importance.

I never would have thought that this masonic "pack/clan" behaviour would be so wide spread, but this topic seems to disprove that, thanks again for enlightening us.

Back to the Topic:

It seems there are various ritual masonic uses for some of these obelisks.
Like you said, they are beeing errected in all kind of places by masons and they put weird things under them.

Why would the masons in this topic first deny that obelisks have any thing to do with masons!?
And later admid several are errected in mason rituals while putting weird ritual masonic stuff under them.
It is very clear after reading the whole topic that a lot of these prominent masons in this topic just seem to lie about the masonic connection to obelisks.

Well they sure raised my interest into this subject, while before i thought there wouldnt be much to it.
Why would they like to leave their mark/tag on such a horrific place.

A lot of Respect Twitchy you are my hero of the week


(Excuse me for any miss spellings)



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 10:58 AM
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reply to post by jaamaan
 


People are so desperate to see a conspiracy where there is none that it's amusing. This has been thoroughly debunked - BY NON-MASONS and masons. It's hilarious that anytime everyone in a thread says something isn't masonic, it must be all the masons doing it. Especially in a thread like this, when there are numerous non-masons and EVEN those people who have accused masonry of some vast conspiracy in other threads agree: there is nothing here.

Perhaps you haven't read the thread. Let's review. What has been shown is that you cannot attribute every shape to masonry. As much as it flatters me that people think we are somehow responsible for the basic shape of an obelisk, it borders on embracing ignorance rather than denying it to assert that obelisks are "masonic" - anymore than a pyramid is "masonic." According to this line of logic masonry somehow owns the Luxor casino in Vegas, since its shaped like a pyramid - and I can find a pyramid somewhere in masonry. I wonder if I can get some free play time if I show my membership card?

But in the rush to craft some conspiracy theory, no one stops to actually read the opinions of those people. Nor did they stop to consider the: "so what?" question. While all the evidence, logic, reason, and everything else points this toward not being masonic, I must ask - so what if it is? OH MY! A masonic monument at a important historical site! HOW DARE US!

This would be funny, if it weren't so sad...

[edit on 26-1-2008 by LightinDarkness]



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by twitchy

Originally posted by MassMason32
Coast to coast masons spend 3 million dollars a day on charity combined.

So what? Adolf Hitler and Jim Baker established several Charities as well. So you don't have any evidence of this Obelisk not being masonic either, just praise for your fraternity? How is that relevant?
Wow 3 million a day, I wonder where the money comes from?


I will try to keep this easy for anybody with limited intellect. The 3 million dollars a day comes from common men just like you and I. There are 1.8 Million Freemasons in the U.S.A. So some simple math for you is this, each one of us gives just under two bucks a day, oh my GOD!!!! There it is. I am glad I was able to share some light with anybody on this thread who has a slight problem with basic math. Yes, there are many many members who have very deep pockets. We have the Angel Fund For Children, for clothing for destitute families. We have the Scottish Rite Charities who sponser the 32 degree learning centers for childern who battle dyslexia , oh yes, and lets not forget all of the Shriners Burn and Orthopedic Centers for children all around the U.S.A. who get free coverage. These are just some of the many many things we donate to. But lets face it, because we tolerate mulitple religions, we are the target of those "SHEEPLE" who cant think for themselves. So we have to listen to all of those who honestly don't know much more about us than what a child would reading off of a bathroom wall at school. Sad it is. So as for the Obelisk, do I have written proof that we didn't put it there in the past, no I don't. But being a member who is involved in many deep facets of the Fraternal Brotherhood, I know that there is no way it was put there. Now, you want to see what an Obelisk looks like when the Fraternal Brotherhood of the Freemasons puts one there--- " GO CHECK OUT THE WASHINGTON MONUMENT ! " Yes, the Brotherhood put it there. But hey,
you may not believe that either. So in closing I wish you long life and good health. I am done giving this subject more time than this, because my time is better delt working for charity.



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 11:43 AM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


No brother, it is not amusing at all.. it is sad.. it is pathetic.. it is exactly as Axe said.. people are so consumed with hate and fear of menial things like local Masonic lodges effecting their daily lives, country, economy, what have you. They forget, or maybe to ignorant to comprehend the REAL issues at hand. Yes, our government is a real government, influenced by bankers, lobbyist, traders, oil barons, the super wealthy and the media hype. Not Masons. And until people start to take their heads out of their # and see the world for what it is, we will have no change. And if people where not as ignorant as the typical conspiracy theorist, we would not be in the situation in the first place.

Instead of bottled up hate that these fools let loose on innocent people, they should take their troubles and inadequacies else where, where a real and logical solution can be found - reality.

They should furthermore understand that society is decrepit not because of Masons, but because the vast majority of society is filled with people exactly like twichy and others, blind, ignorant, unwilling to learn or understand fixated in their own world.

There is no Masonic conspiracy.

The world is not run by Masons.

There is a ignorant population conspiracy.

The world is run by the ignorant.

Its me who should be hating people like twichy, not twichy hating people like Masons.



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 11:53 AM
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Three completely irrelevant masonic posts in a row, none of them addressing the Obelisk, just singing the praises of freemasonry and their charitiable contributions to the world. Yawn.
Do any of you guys have any evidence whatsoever that this Obelisk isn't masonic? Do any of you guys actually have something relevant to the thread at all?



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 11:56 AM
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Originally posted by twitchy
Appak and Trinityman have both been pretty decent about the discussion, I'm intersted in knowing what you two think about the choice to place an obelisk there?


Thanks Twitchy


I can't really add any more to what I have already posted.I've never come across the obelisk used as a masonic symbol and I can't prove a negative.

I must add, this is not a thread I wish to post on. I've been just reading - partly because I've been busy, and partly because I don't wish to be associated with ATS members on both sides of this artificially created fence who seem unable to make their


passions and prejudices coincide with the just line of (their) conduct.
.



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 11:58 AM
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Originally posted by jaamaan
...the way you are beeing attacked the obelisk seems to grow in importance.

I never would have thought that this masonic "pack/clan" behaviour would be so wide spread, but this topic seems to disprove that, thanks again for enlightening us.

Yeah it's every single thread that even so much as whispers Freemasonry, they crowd in like an angry herd to make sure nobody gets a word in without being demonized as ignorant and Hate Mongering. That's fine, let them do. The fact you and others have gotten a glimpse of their pack behavior out of this thread makes the time I've spent arguing with them worthwhile.



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 12:52 PM
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It's still way beyond me what difference any of this makes? If the obelisk were a Masonic emblem, what of it? Does that make it EVIL? If so, why? I think it's pretty impressive.

Incidentally in the Catholic Cemetery in my town (we've got TONS of Catholics here) there are numerous obelisks, dating way back into the 1800's. Doubtful the Masons had anything to do with these.

The square is a Masonic emblem and I've seen thousands of buildings that are "L" shaped or shaped like a Square. Does that make them Masonic?
The streets in my hometown intersect mostly at right angles (squares) Are they Masonic?

The Pentagon is a Masonic emblem, does that make The Pentagon (referring to the huge building in D.C. of course) Masonic?

Circles and triangles are used in Masonic symbolism? Does that make the old Busch Stadium in St Louis (which was a circle) Masonic? Are "Yield" signs Masonic? They're triangular. Does that mean "Yeild to Masons?" Hm?

The Pyramid is a symbol used in the Shrine ritual and there's a huge Pyramid in Memphis (Tennessee) Is it Masonic? If so does that make the Bob Seger and Jimmy Buffett concerts that I saw there Masonic as well?

It's patently obvious to anyone who's paying attention that ALL these things listed above (as well as Compasses, Mallets, 24-Inch guages, etc.) are completely Masonic and have absolutely NO OTHER SYMBOLISM. Right? I mean symbols can only have ONE symbol and it's universal isn't it? [/sarcasm] [shrug]

C'mon folks. This whole (however many pages it's grown to) thread makes no sense to me. I've spent the better part of this morning looking for the Obelisk as a Mason emblem (in books actually published by Masons) and Mackey's Encyclopaedia is the only one that makes mention of it. Even Coil doesn't have anything to say.

If it is indeed a Masonic emblem, it's assuredly not a very important one.

And if the (I've just GOT to say this) Obelisk that is the original part of this discussion is Masonic, it sure is strange that it doesn't say so, since apparently (at least according to certain participants in this thread) only Freemasons are allowed to erect obelisks.

...sure haven't ever read that in Masonic law, though.


Oh well, this thread has been futile, but at least it racked up some ATS points, huh? :u:


[edit on 26-1-2008 by senrak]



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 12:55 PM
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reply to post by twitchy
 


You don't prove that it "it is not masonic" .. You have to prove that it IS Masonic. Which you have not. The fact that there are no Masonic markings is evidence enough it is not Masonic.

So where is the "proof" that it IS MASONIC.



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by senrak
at least it racked up some ATS points, huh? :u:

With every vague and ambiguous irrelevant masoniphillic bump.



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy
With every vague and ambiguous irrelevant masoniphillic bump.


C'mon now twitchy, sorry if that hit home, but honestly.

1. Why do you think the obelisk is Masonic?

2. If it is Masonic, what makes it evil?

3. If it is Masonic, why are ALL of them Masonic?

4. Since Masons mark their work, why isn't the one in question marked by Masonry?

I'm just curious.

You can hate Masonry if you want to, it's no skin off mine. You can say we behave in pack-like manner if you like. That's OK too.

But when people make wild, unsubstantiated claims about Freemasonry, they are making wild, unsubstantiated claims about ME because I am one. And I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here and not defend myself.

I think any true man who is attacked, directly or indirectly, would do the same...lest he's not a man.

In my not so humble opinion.



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 01:11 PM
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Ok one last time for all you masons...
The Trinity Obelisk is Masonic. If you say it isn't, then provide some evidence as to why you think it isn't. I haven't seen a single poster on this thread, myself included, that has gone into the actual erection of this obelisk. Once we find that information, and it will turn up I'm sure, then I think we can all have something resembling an educated opinion on the matter. Until then, it's just another thread, isn't it?
I wonder if we would be within the TOS here at ATS to form a Clan of Opposition to Freemasonry? I can't imagine after seeing what you guys get away with here that it would be much of a stretch of the rules.



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 01:37 PM
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Thanks twitchy, for avoiding each and every question above. I'll be polite and answer one of yours, though.


Originally posted by twitchy
Ok one last time for all you masons...
The Trinity Obelisk is Masonic. If you say it isn't, then provide some evidence as to why you think it isn't.


Why twitchy? You haven't provided one iota of evidence that it IS, except to say things like the above "the Trinity Obelisk is Masonic."

What makes it Masonic? There's no indication or identification that it is.

[edit to add] That's the evidence I'm providing to say I don't think it's Masonic. We stamp our name on everything we do. Look at Masonic cornerstones. They generally all say "Laid by the M.W. Grand Lodge of (insert Jurisdiction)" They have the Grand Master's name and the officers involved. There is a Masonic "Square & Compasses" emblem on them. There doesn't appear to be one on the Trinity monument.

Why can't it just be a Monument? There are monuments everywhere that ARE Masonic....and those that are NOT. I think this one falls into the latter.



I haven't seen a single poster on this thread, myself included, that has gone into the actual erection of this obelisk. Once we find that information, and it will turn up I'm sure, then I think we can all have something resembling an educated opinion on the matter.


On that, I fully agree. Perhaps you should write to someone (rather than relying on Google) in charge of the upkeep of the grounds or someone in charge of "something" there and see if there's a history of it's erection. Surely, some Board or group of individuals came up with the idea, voted on it, procured the $ and arranged for it's design, erection and upkeep. There must be some board minutes somewhere. Probably they would be willing to provide this information to someone genuinely interested.

I'll leave that to you, as I've lived 40 years without knowing and feel sure that I can survive. But if you do come up with the proof (one way or another) I'd be interested to read it.



Until then, it's just another thread, isn't it?


Not much of one, but admittedly not many of 'em are any more.



I wonder if we would be within the TOS here at ATS to form a Clan of Opposition to Freemasonry?


Which once again begs the question. Why do you hate Masons? In fact, let me bring it closer. Why do you hate me? You do not KNOW me. You have no reason to hate me, yet you do. I harbor no ill feelings to you or to anyone who hates Masonry, but why do you do it? There must be a legitimate reason and I'd like to know. Perhaps it can be "patched up" as it were...



I can't imagine after seeing what you guys get away with here that it would be much of a stretch of the rules.


I don't see Masons "getting away" with any more than Mason-haters do, but whatever.

I do have one question. what the hell would anyone on this forum talk about if it weren't for Masons?



[edit on 26-1-2008 by senrak]



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by senrak
That's the evidence I'm providing to say I don't think it's Masonic.

Thank you for providing that evidence, I'm sure that we will be able to make really sound and definitive conclusions based on that.
As to Freemasonry...
At least I know I'm sold.



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy

Originally posted by senrak
That's the evidence I'm providing to say I don't think it's Masonic.

Thank you for providing that evidence, I'm sure that we will be able to make really sound and definitive conclusions based on that.
As to Freemasonry...
At least I know I'm sold.


Certainly at least as much as you've provided

Let me know when you get a copy of the board minutes.

Yep, I'm sold on Freemasonry too! I love it, but it's not for everyone. Honestly.

Now for a beer. Got any Guiness Rockpuck?


[edit on 26-1-2008 by senrak]



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy
Ok one last time for all you masons...
The Trinity Obelisk is Masonic.


Why? (aside from 'because you say it is')


Originally posted by twitchy
If you say it isn't, then provide some evidence as to why you think it isn't.


FAIL. The onus is on YOU to prove your point, NOT everyone else in the world to disprove it.


Originally posted by twitchy
I haven't seen a single poster on this thread, myself included, that has gone into the actual erection of this obelisk.


Which speaks volumes about your 'rationale' for this aberration of a thread. If YOU can't be bothered investigating your own assertion, why should OTHERS be expected to investigate an unsupported assertion?


Originally posted by twitchy
Once we find that information, and it will turn up I'm sure, then I think we can all have something resembling an educated opinion on the matter. Until then, it's just another thread, isn't it?


Until then, you will keep repeating an unsubstantiated assertion as if it's fact instead of opinion (and baseless opinion at that). Yet in 15 page of 'thread', you belabour Masons who point out your inconsistency.


Originally posted by twitchy
I wonder if we would be within the TOS here at ATS to form a Clan of Opposition to Freemasonry? I can't imagine after seeing what you guys get away with here that it would be much of a stretch of the rules.


Many have tried to get you to acknowledge what you've just yourself typed (sic) you started a thread with an assertion instead of a fact and you've been defending that assertion without benefit of any outside factual support for 15 pages. Chauvin could've taken lessons from you. Try as you might to try to frame this as some sort of Masonic pig pile, it just ain't so.
[edit on 26-1-2008 by Fitzgibbon]
Stupid non-preview preview
[edit on 26-1-2008 by Fitzgibbon]

[edit on 26-1-2008 by Fitzgibbon]



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy

Yeah it's every single thread that even so much as whispers Freemasonry, they crowd in like an angry herd to make sure nobody gets a word in without being demonized as ignorant and Hate Mongering. That's fine, let them do. The fact you and others have gotten a glimpse of their pack behavior out of this thread makes the time I've spent arguing with them worthwhile.


So if someone made unfounded and untrue claims about something that you were involved in, or some aspect of your life, you would just let them do it?You wouldn't want to even defend yourself or your position about allegations, you would just roll over and take it?Here is the real nonlogic of antimasonry, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't when dealing with antimasons.

If you do not refute untrue claims, then you will get accusations of "Hmmm looks like all of the Masons here sure are quiet, we are getting the silent treatment, this is proof that they are up to something.

If you do refute claims then you get accusations of "look at this ganging up and pack like behavior they all came to post (refute allegations),they wouldn't all post unless they are covering something up."

You try to use either to your advantage to sway people.

Maybe you should look into the Bildeburg, CFR, Trilateral Commission, and similar groups if you want to see who is really controlling the world because it sure isn't the Freemasons.



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy
Yeah it's every single thread that even so much as whispers Freemasonry, they crowd in like an angry herd to make sure nobody gets a word in without being demonized as ignorant and Hate Mongering. That's fine, let them do. The fact you and others have gotten a glimpse of their pack behavior out of this thread makes the time I've spent arguing with them worthwhile.


Twitchy I must applaud you. You are indeed a master of rhetoric and spinning. It's truly amazing the work you've done here. You have been able to:

1) Start a thread about a monument being masonic, even though were it actually masonic it is unclear to everyone what the point is. Essentially, even if your correct, it still doesn't matter - if its a masonic monument, so what?

2) Despite this reality, you have created a huge thread by promoting and encouraging a false dichotomy. You have drawn an illusionary line in the sand and declared everyone who agrees with you is on the right side, and everyone who disagrees with you is a Mason (and is "wrong/evil/etc."). Even those who are not masons, are now apparently masons because they recognize that this thread has no substance. Even though there are quite a few non-masons and even people who assert Masons are up to some sort of huge conspiracy, who say you've got nothing. And yet...those people are ignored and dismissed as being Masons.

3) You have offered no evidence for (1), and all the evidence you have offered are logical fallacies. And even your logical fallacies have been proven to be factually incorrect.

4) You demand the "Masons" (masons, for you, being everyone who disagrees with you) offer evidence that something that does not exist. This is like me demanding for you to prove to me purple unicorns don't exist. This is intentionally using the burden of proof principle in a fallacious way.

5) You craft a little following to come in this thread and declare that - because no one (mason, non-mason, anyone) sees this as being masonic there must be something going on here. This sort of logic, to everyone but you and this clique, boggles the mind in its fallaciousness. You are able to convince yourself that it could not just be that - gasp - your factually incorrect.

6) You absolutely ignore all facts, logic, or reason. You simply ignore it, and to every piece of logic or reason you simply dismiss it as being "irrelevant" without reason, and continue parroting "PROVE ITS NOT MASONIC" even though this line of logic has been debunked.

7) You have explicitly pointed out that this thread is to bait Masons, at least twice that I can see. Despite this, you continue to act like there is some real point here other than trying to get a response out of a group of people.

8) You quite simply lie. You've lied so many times I've lost count. With reckless abandon, you will say anything to protect the fact that this thread is devoid of substance. You've tried to derail the topic, tried to demonize everyone who disagrees with you - you name it, you've done it. Your lying so much I am beginning to wonder if your worldview is just not completely distorted.

Truly amazing. I think you should get a job in politics, you'd do well. I predict you will respond to this using tactic 6.

[edit on 26-1-2008 by LightinDarkness]



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