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Interesting Place to Find a Masonic Obelisk

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posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 12:21 AM
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reply to post by twitchy
 


This astounds me. This post indicates you actually do realize the type of circular logic you are using. You are basically assuming that EVERYTHING is masonic until it is proven to you that it is not. That is not how this works. This is a common anti-mason tactic called confusing burden of proof. It is up to you - as the supporter of a theory - to provide evidence for the theory. We cannot prove the fantastical.

Let's have an example, shall we?

I say that twitchy is a reptilian NWO member who is here as a government disinformation agent. Prove me wrong. Unless you prove me wrong, it's true.

The rest of your so called "argument" consist of you using, again and again, a sweeping generalization fallacy. Here's how it works.

X is a characteristic of one instance of object or person Y.
Object or person Y influenced object Z.
Therefore, all of objects like Z are X.

The fallacious of this argument boggles the mind in its simplicity. Just because on instances of an object has a characteristic, does not mean ALL objects have that characteristic. Let's have another example:

The Pyramids at Giza were built by ancient Egyptians. Therefore, all pyramids in the world were built by ancient egyptians.

This is very simple. Did you also know George Washington was white? Does this mean the Washington monument actually is a symbol of the caucasian race? By your logic, it does. Its simply wrong at the face of it because the logic does not follow.

[edit on 25-1-2008 by LightinDarkness]




posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 12:41 AM
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Wow, twitchy, you've actually drawn alot of correlations there and provided backups for it.

I could care less about all the boo-hooing about 'antimasons'.

This is a conspiracy forum. Obelisks and masonry have been tied together over and over.

Just because Masons stamp their feet and demand the discussion stop, or flail their arms about "WE HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS OBELISK."

The overkill of X + pages of denial is nothing short of comical. Give it a rest, folks. The OP has made his point and you have decided that it's full of holes etc. Shouldn't it rest at that?

Well that's the thing about some of these posters. It's never 'the end'. They must have the last word OR kill a thread before being satisfied


Even if you assume that twitchy is just a troll, I have yet to see a troll who actually posts sources etc. I really DO think the Masons are just having a hissy-fit as usual, and I have to commend twitchy's integrity for sticking to his topic.



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 12:45 AM
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reply to post by twitchy
 


Do you have anything in response to the above referenced post... Do you have anything to the contrary? How much research have you actually put into Obelisks? Are you just attacking my circular logic with your own? What makes you think it isn't masonic? Who told you it wasn't? Do you have ANYTHING tangible? I've at least bothered to look into it, can you say the same? Yeah? Let's see what you have. Otherwise, my god, you guys sound like a bunch of old hens clucking at a coyote who finally found a chink in the fence.

www.abovetopsecret.com...
Debunk that... Or don't debunk that, it's your choice, or lack of choice, but you got alot of haught demanding evidence, getting it handed to you, then going on about circular logic while ignoring it all together and presenting none of your own.
Start your own "Obelisks Are Moonpie Yurts" thread if you like and we can argue about marshmellows and circles of logic there, but this thread says they are masonic, and I've presented some evidence to that effect. If you say they aren't, then well that's just you saying, isn't it? Saavy?



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 12:59 AM
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reply to post by NewWorldOver
 


But he has provided no proof of his original claim: that the Trinity Site obelisk is Masonic. It has been shown that said monument has no Masonic significance. He can hop up and down and say "obelisk" and "Masonic" in the same sentance all he wants; it doesn't change the fact that the obelisk, simply by virtue of being an obelisk, is not inherently Masonic in nature. Obelisks far outdate Masonry.

I expect it is/has been an important symbol to individual Masons due to the fact that the obelisk traditionally symbolized a beam of Light, and Masonically speaking, Light is a metaphor for knowledge; hence, as you learn, you become more "enlightened."

Are church steeples Masonic too? Same symbolism as the obelisk; in fact the church steeple resembles an obelisk much more than the pile of rocks at the Trinity site.

Occam's Razor is indeed your friend.



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 01:06 AM
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Originally posted by NewWorldOver
Wow, twitchy, you've actually drawn alot of correlations there and provided backups for it.

Yeah I don't screw around when it comes to opposing Hobnobbery.
I like to let them walk into threads and expose themselves and thier tactics, it makes it so much easier than trying to convince people of anything. You should see the other thread they've taken a brotherly interest in...
Here we see a classic case, starting with 'that's not an obelisk' they all hobnob in agreement about it not being an obelisk. Then we find out it is indeed officially called an obelisk, and we get 'obelisks aren't masonic', once we establish that yeah, masons use obesliks, then we get 'well some are but this one isn't', and then when we find out that one might be, we are reduced to attacking my circular logic. It sure beats Square logic.
They can't proove that isn't a Masonic Obelisk, but I bet if I keep digging, I'm going to find something referencing a masonic ritual for that one, just like most any other obelisk they erect in honor of something.
Nuclear Weapons... thanks masons.


Axeman I still have you on ignore for calling me a pothead, I see that you replied here, because of the subscribed list I still have to read your name. I'd reccomend anyone not wanting an ear full of angry irrelevant quasi-masonic rantings to add axeman to the ole ignore list, he's a real champion of the cause.



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 01:12 AM
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Originally posted by twitchy
Do you have anything to the contrary?
Are you just attacking my circular logic with your own?
What makes you think it isn't masonic?
Who told you it wasn't?
Do you have ANYTHING tangible?


Ooo Ooo Can I answer for them?

No, except their own opinion (stated as fact).
YES, (circular logic = circular debate = ATS mason catnip)
Their own opinion, experience as a Mason, etc.
Again, their opinion, nobody told them, they are telling us
And no, they have no tangible evidence that the obelisk in question is not masonic in origin.

Again, it's a circular debate with no definitive conclusions and the Masons are in this for the same reason they are in every thread. To throw a fit, proclaim themself the arbiter of all Masonic knowledge, and beat the thread over the head with a club until it dies.



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 01:19 AM
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You don't see alot of discussion in this forum anymore on freemasonry. Their pack like behavior tends to scare alot of people from posting, I get alot of u2u's from members telling me that they support me but don't want to post because of this kind of crap.
To think the 9-11 forum gets all the extra scrutiny amazes me, while this forum has become a bad joke.



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 01:22 AM
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Originally posted by The Axeman
But he has provided no proof of his original claim: that the Trinity Site obelisk is Masonic. It has been shown that said monument has no Masonic significance. He can hop up and down and say "obelisk" and "Masonic" in the same sentance all he wants.


This is very true, he has no way of proving that the Trinity Site obelisk is Masonic in origin.

We have determined before that Obelisks have masonic ties, whether or not Masons on ATS are going to agree, (to be honest, they'll disagree with anything if they think it is 'anti-mason').

And yes, we CAN hop up and down and declare a great many things to be Masonic, but that's not the case. We ( the supposed anti-masons ) tend to be more specific about what seems Masonic to us, and if the ATS Masons disagree (which they do) we ACKNOWLEDGE that they disagree... it is after all, predictable that they might.


The fact remains, Masons throw tantrums over every thread that openly discusses them, in any manner, and it's silly. I believe if Masons weren't so dogmatic and fervent about their organization they might simply disagree with a thread and leave it at that. But they don't do that.... they hang in to get the last word and beat the thread to death.


Even you, an un-biased observer, can see this, and so you tell them to stop feeding the troll etc.

Myself, I am not un-biased, I actually do believe that Masonry has secrets that even low level initiates are unaware of or capable of admitting. I do believe that the ATS Masons are a syndicate of pseudo-skeptics whose sole purpose is to bully the secret society forum from discussing their organization.

As you see, it's not just that they are here to defend or disagree. They are here to beat the thread to death, as they have done in so many others (mine included).

We could start an entirely new thread about this in the S.S. forum, the only thing is, it would be flooded with Masons and overrun like every other.

That's why I commend twitchy for sticking to his thread. He hasn't allowed anyone to bully him off the subject, and he certainly hasn't demanded anything of the Masons. He is openly discussing the topic like this forum was designed for. Why it upsets the Masons enough to keep coming back is what REALLY interests me. It's a simple discussion about an obelisk at the trinity site... but they turn EVERY discussion about Masonry into a battle to the death


[edit on 25-1-2008 by NewWorldOver]



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 01:25 AM
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Originally posted by twitchy
You don't see alot of discussion in this forum anymore on freemasonry. Their pack like behavior tends to scare alot of people from posting, I get alot of u2u's from members telling me that they support me but don't want to post because of this kind of crap.
To think the 9-11 forum gets all the extra scrutiny amazes me, while this forum has become a bad joke.


My friend, I couldn't agree more. I am in contact with other members who want the S.S. forum back to the conspiracy theorists, WE are why this forum exists, this is NOT a forum for Masons, and never was. They are free to post here, but they are NOT free to bully and over-take every thread, using belittling remarks and 'witty reparte' as if it's some kind of ammunition. I am new here, but from what I hear, they've been up to this for a long time. No biggie though, we, as actual ATS members (that is, actual conspiracy theorists) are STILL the reason this forum exists, and we'll keep posting



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 06:24 AM
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wasn't Amercia founded by Freemasons......?

If so.....is it not possible that anything to do with masons like the obelisk since the very discovery of America is Masonic…..?



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 07:18 AM
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Originally posted by andre18
wasn't Amercia founded by Freemasons......?

If so.....is it not possible that anything to do with masons like the obelisk since the very discovery of America is Masonic…..?


What? ..... Dude seriously?

America was not "discovered by Masons" .. and a small minority of signers where Masons.

As for Twitchy, it is obvious your childishly trolling, which gets you a place on my Blist.



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 07:26 AM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


I never asked if it was discovered by freemasons....I asked if it was 'founded' by freemasons....there's a bloody difference...lol

You even admitted “a small minority of signers where Masons” lol



[edit on 25-1-2008 by andre18]



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 07:31 AM
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reply to post by andre18
 





since the very discovery of America is Masonic


That is from you, buddy. Read your own words


Yes, I admit that a minority of signers where in fact Masons, I am rather proud of that to be honest.

But... I fail to see your point. Is there something wrong with a few of the signers happening to be Masons? If you ask me, instead of such ignorant hate.. you should at the very least be aware that a great majority of your freedoms came from Masons, and more importantly, from Masonic ideologies.



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 07:44 AM
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I think the obelisk and the Trinity site itself should be held up to further scrutiny by way of Onomastics and Toponomastics.

Onomastics

The science that studies names in all their aspects is called onomastics (or onomatology—an obsolete word). The subject of this science is broad because almost everything can have a name and because the study of names theoretically encompasses all languages, all geographical and cultural regions, and all historical epochs. For practical purposes, some divisions of the subject are...
Link

Toponomastics

Objectives
- to analyse local names on the territory under investigation in the wider context of historical topography

- to capture and describe evidence of human activities as it is reflected in the names of places and trails

Methods
Description of the place under investigation
History of the place, historical documents and analysis of its name
Analysis and systematisation of local names
Comparison of names with the evidence of human activities
Assumption of evidence of human activities which already disappeared and which can be expected to be found during archaeological research
Final assessment
Link


"It is certain that onomatology, or the science of names, forms a very interesting part of the investigations of the higher Masonry, and it is only in this way that any connection can be created between the two sciences." - Encyclopedia of Freemasonry


Some of the Masonic membership on this board know that this is a personal hobby-horse of mine.

Isis and Onomastics

That the obelisk was erected to be more than a mere marker of the event seems to be obvious. As the obelisks of Ancient Egypt were erected in honour of the Sun God Ra. What better object to commemorate the creation of a new sun?

Isidor Rabi feared that the intense light would burn "forever."

Kistiakowsky remarked: "I am sure that at the end of the world, in the last millisecond of the earth's existence, the last human will see what we saw."

Winston Churchill referred to the bomb as "the second coming in wrath."

And Oppie himself came forth with this line from the 32nd Quatrain of the Bhagavad Gita:

"I am become death, the shatterer of worlds."
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Oppenheimer may have chosen the name Trinity as an homage to John Donne, but the fact that the site also sits slap dab on the 33rd parallel of longitude (have a look on Google Earth) seems to pass strange.


Trinity Site, Alamogordo Bombing Range, New Mexico ( 33°40'30.00"N, 106°28'30.00"W)
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Then we see this positioning for the Scottish Rite Temple of Augusta, Georgia:

N 33° 30.267 W 082° 00.933

DESCRIBED BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1980 3.1 KM NW FROM AUGUSTA. 3.1 KILOMETERS (1.95 MILES) NORTHWEST ALONG STATE HIGHWAY 28 (BROAD STREET) FROM THE INTERSECTION OF 7TH STREET IN AUGUSTA, TO THE JUNCTION OF EISENHOWER DRIVE, AT THE SCOTTISH RITE TEMPLE CHURCH, SET SOUTH OF A PLAQUE READING -ANCIENT AND ACCEPTED SCOTTISH RITE OF FREE MASONARY- AT THE SOUTHWEST CORNER OF THE CHURCH, 12 METERS (39.4 FEET) SOUTH-SOUTHEAST OF A 1.2-METER (4.0-FOOT) HIGH BRICK RETAINING WALL, 6.2 METERS (20.4 FEET) NORTHEAST OF THE MOST NORTHEASTERLY EDGE OF THE SIDEWALK, 0.82 METER (2.7 FEET) SOUTH OF THE PLAGUE. THE MARK IS ABOVE LEVEL WITH POAD.
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Is there anything significant about this particular Temple?

Synchronicity perhaps?

As has been pointed out by twitchy, the test site also sits on a forboding desert plain known locally as the Journada del Muerta - or The Journey of Death/Dead Man.

Trinity

It is hard not to think of that first detonation in anything but theological terms. It was something that was continually referred to by it's creators and those that were aware of it's ramifications at the time. This leads me to believe that the site was chosen for much more than it being "out of the way."

Whether the obelisk is of Masonic origin, however, I don't know...

But Mason's who are interested in Toponomy, should find this case to be one of intense interest.




[edit on 25/1/2008 by Beelzebubba]



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 07:52 AM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


Firstly....I don't hate.....masons......just because I’m questioning something....or, rather asking something about them.....has nothing to do with hating anybody.....

Secondly….I was referring to the possibility that “anything to do with masons like the obelisk” is Masonic…..since the discovery of America……I guess I structured the sentencing wrong…..my bad

And so…..I will ask the question again…. was America founded by Freemasons…?

And if so….is there a possibility since the discovery America, that anything to do with masons like the obelisk is Masonic…..?



[edit on 25-1-2008 by andre18]



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 08:12 AM
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Originally posted by NewWorldOver


And yes, we CAN hop up and down and declare a great many things to be Masonic, but that's not the case. We ( the supposed anti-masons ) tend to be more specific about what seems Masonic to us, and if the ATS Masons disagree (which they do) we ACKNOWLEDGE that they disagree... it is after all, predictable that they might.


OK, OK....enough. Let's call a temporary truce for the purpose of actually *discussing* something for once.

I'm curious about something you said above. You said "what seems Masonic to us", "us" presumably meaning non-Masons or anti-masons. My question is, how are you actually judging what is and is not "Masonic". What sort of standard are you using?



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 08:14 AM
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Originally posted by andre18
…. was America founded by Freemasons…?



I wouldn't go that far. I would say instead that our nation was founded by revolutionary freethinking liberals, many of whom were Freemasons.



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 08:24 AM
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reply to post by Masonic Light
 



I wouldn't go that far. I would say instead that our nation was founded by revolutionary freethinking liberals, many of whom were Freemasons.


So the answer is yes.....

Can you then answer my other question….is there a possibility that since the discovery of America, that anything to do with masons like the obelisk is Masonic…..?



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 08:43 AM
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Originally posted by andre18


So the answer is yes.....


Actually the answer was no. Some of our founders were Masons, but others were not. It's not really fair to say that our country was "founded by Freemasons". Some were, others weren't.


Can you then answer my other question….is there a possibility that since the discovery of America, that anything to do with masons like the obelisk is Masonic…..?


This was the point that was made earlier. Obelisks are not Masonic symbols. Structures in the USA that have Masonic links will carry the Masonic symbol (Square, Compass, Letter G). For example, the cornerstones discussed earlier feature these symbols.



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 09:05 AM
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reply to post by Beelzebubba
 


Great post mate,

The biggest issue I have with this is simply to say that an obelisk was raised in honor of Ra, you must first define as a fact that those who constructed it worship Egyptology. If they did not, that particularargument is by default impossible.

As for Trinity being on the 33rd paralel, It is in the middle of a desert, which is why it was used.. Masons are not so much into numerology as you may assume. It is an odd coincidence, but the ones behind the project where not Masons, the President was not a Mason and the lead scientist where not Masons. So it would seem weird to honor Masons when no one there was a Mason?

Secondly, Johnson was a Mason, and he technically ordered Japan to be nuked.. however he is not revered by Masons at all for that fact. We respect him being a Mason, and being a President as that is no small feat... however, never do we honor him because he nuked Japan..

Lastly, the world "I am become death, shatterer of worlds" is not a unique quote to him.. he was a philosophical fellow, and he read a lot of ancient writings..

I will try and find where he took that, but he quoted a writing and did not make that statement himself.



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