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World Markets Plunge - DJIA Futures Down Nearly 500 Points

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posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 08:36 PM
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reply to post by marg6043
 


The basis of the Dems stimulation plan has to do with the Social benefits.. kind of ironic actually.

The Dem's want everyone who pays into SS to get a rebate as well.. well that is a massive amount of American's who pay little to nothing into "tax" .. as the Republicans demand a certain amount paid into Tax.

While the Dem's plan will give money to many poor American's and lower middle class even, the money WILL come out of the SS accounts....

Not the regular government revenue funds, unlike Republicans.

They are both stupid, idiotic plans, both with their own evils.




posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 08:36 PM
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reply to post by Escrotumus
 


The irony that your so insulted by your own logic fails no one. I'm just illustrating your absurdity. I'm sorry it offends you. I would expect more from anyone on these boards, especially one who considers himself to be so educated. We all get it. You think I am a peon who has no idea what is happening and am just blinded and too stupid to see the truth. I get it, I get it: I am not worthy...

By the way, I'm not wealthy - nor have I ever claimed to be. I've also never claimed to be educated. I do have a masters and a few bachelors degrees, but so does everyone else in America - higher education degrees are worthless and everyone has one. But attacking the person and projecting like your doing is much easier to do than..staying on topic. Staying on topic, a revolutionary idea!

BACK on topic...

I agree that the war should be stopped, and social program spending. I'd also point out that there is nothing unique to todays financial environment and the last recession. Savings and Loan Bank Crises, anyone?



A taxpayer-funded government bailout related to mortgages during the S&L crisis may have created a moral hazard and acted as encouragement to lenders to make similar higher-risk loans during the 2007 subprime mortgage financial crisis. [4]

The concomitant slowdown in the finance industry and the real estate market may have been a contributing cause of the 1990-1991 economic recession. Between 1986 and 1991, the number of new homes constructed dropped from 1.8 million to 1 million, the lowest rate since World War II. [5]

en.wikipedia.org...


It is so rare I quote Wikipedia, but you know its obvious when even Wikipedia has it right. What else can we add to our check list for the 1980s-early 1990s recession?

Real estate slowdown? Check. New home slowdown? Check. Bank crises? Check. Government mortgage bailout? Check.

Any other "unique" factors that all also occurred during the last recession that you want to claim makes this somehow "unique" and surely a recession to bring doom and gloom?



[edit on 22-1-2008 by LightinDarkness]



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 08:40 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


I would point out that no time in American history has the general populace as a whole incurred such massive amounts of personal debt.

Being, home, car, CREDIT CARDS, loans, so on and so forth. I think this has a lot to do with the current situation.

Just my opinion though.



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 08:41 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


I love your post and remember I am just been sarcastic. What else is there to be but no only been close to predictions but also see that is nothing been actually done to fix anything.

FIX ECONOMY WITH MANUFACTURING JOBS

Have you hear anything from our corporate rule government about doing some fixing? bringing the wealth builders back?

No in a thousand years.



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 08:45 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


Yes, that would also be true for the 1980s. Inflation adjusted, during every recession you could say "at no time has the average American incurred such massive debt." Debt brings about every recession, and every recession its always a "historically high" debt level. It will be in the next one, too.

Fix the economy with manufacturing jobs? That would serve in destroying our economy, not to mention the government can't just "create" manufacturing jobs. Luring even one manufacturing plant is like a buffalo hunt, except it costs hundreds of millions of dollars to do it for every manufacturer you target, and such plants tend to decimate the local economy over time - and create a dependence relationship on the manufacturer to keep the economy afloat. I think we've seen enough of the industrial complex in America. Manufacturing jobs only build wealth for the foreign owners.

[edit on 22-1-2008 by LightinDarkness]



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 08:49 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


..Well, I would honestly have to ask for some proof to define the inflation adjusted debt of the average individual from the mid 1980's.

In that era, Credit was used much more lightly, in fact, many Credit Cards like American Express required an annual income of 45,000 and mandatory balance pay offs.

Credit has been moved from the industrial and banking markets, to the individual market .. left uncheck, many with unimaginable limits and outstanding interest rates...



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 08:51 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


I guess in this one I will disagree one hundred percent, free trade is killing our nation and have turned us from a nation of producers to a nation of dependent consumers.

I will not get into any details here because this not the base of this thread.





[edit on 22-1-2008 by marg6043]



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 08:53 PM
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I fail to see how a $124 billion scandal (payed by the tax payers) compares to one that will be easily in the trillions when these loans reset; even factoring in inflation. That is nowhere near where we will be by this time next year if this problem is left unchecked. I already quoted the S&L scandal in my previous post over a half hour ago because I knew you'd try to make some absurd comparison between it and what's happening now. The difference between S&L and the potential of the subprime/AMBAC/MBIA situation is like comparing a pool to a lake. As I've also already said before, most of the ingredients from previous recessions are here for this recession, only on a much larger and much more corrupt scale.

I have said all I will say on this topic. Go out there and make your millions young man for it is quite apparent to me that you have all the answers!



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 08:54 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by Rockpuck
 


I love your post and remember I am just been sarcastic. What else is there to be but no only been close to predictions but also see that is nothing been actually done to fix anything.

FIX ECONOMY WITH MANUFACTURING JOBS

Have you hear anything from our corporate rule government about doing some fixing? bringing the wealth builders back?

No in a thousand years.


Absolutley..

Not only that, end Free Trade..

If people think we are loosing only our manufacturing jobs.. they are dead wrong, there are thousands upon thousands of high tech, research and corporate jobs that simply never come to America any more, because they can be created in china, India, Mexico, Singapor, even Europe with its lower corporate taxes..

Who knows, maybe they will give us manufacturing jobs building tanks, planes and bombs in the near future..

And I would also like to point out, as we look to our government for answers and actions, the partisan BS that plagues the institutions of our government will if anything, prevent speedy and well aimed recovery efforts, resulting in prolonged civil discomfort for everyday individuals..

As was the case in the 1980's, 1920's, post civil war era, not exclusive to America, historical incidents such as Ireland Great Famine where for the most part, as bad as they where simply because of political partisan ignorance.

A government of the few, for the few, by the few.



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 08:55 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


Your proof:
bigpicture.typepad.com...

Look at the first chart. This is indeed a blog, but it cites a valid unbiased source and the source says the same thing - but the link was huge when I found it on the federal reserve site. As you can see, during the 1980s recession they had the largest amount of consumer debt (non-mortgage - credit card debt and other things you mentioned) EVER, for that time. Like I said, it is higher now...and it will be for every recession in the future.



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 08:58 PM
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reply to post by Escrotumus
 


Wow, denial.

As I said before, this is cyclical. I have shown everything that happened in the previous recession is going on here. And it will happen next time. You act surprised that it gets larger each time. I have one word; inflation. I thought this was obvious...apparently not. I still await for you to show me where there is anything unique in this recession that makes it a doom and gloom/armageddon/depression/we're all going to die recession.

You just keep telling me I'm too stupid/blind to see it, yet you ignore all the facts.

Oh and marg..yes, we'll have to disagree. I do not advocate for protectionism. If America can't compete on a global scale, America deserves to lose. Of course your advocating for a level even above protectionism - bankrupting us even more to create dependent economies around manufacturing corporations that would then have the ability to control us more than they already do. I can't help but not like the idea.

[edit on 22-1-2008 by LightinDarkness]



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 09:02 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


Honestly not impressed, and the blog by no means says the 1980's was equal to current day situations mate..

The graph and number data alone does not account for much information.

It says "total debt" .. per how many people? What kind of debt?

....blogs....



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 09:04 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


Honestly it reads for itself. Total debt level is always rising. It was the highest it ever was for every previous year. It speaks for itself. I never said it said anything different - my point was - and is - that every time there is a recession debt levels are the "highest historical levels." You asked for proof, there you have it.

Do you have any proof of the opposite?

I'm out for now. Got stuff to do.

[edit on 22-1-2008 by LightinDarkness]



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 09:13 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


..... what?

Look mate, all I was saying was it does not show average debt incurred by individual people.. which was the entire point to begin with?

Anyways, back to the topic....



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 09:38 PM
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I appreciate the strategy info on how to deal with this type of market condition but I think it misses the point on how this happened, what has been done, and has it been fixed?


You are always going to have opposite views on whether it is a good time to take advantage of a particular situation or not.

I post as basicly an outsider, who is more concerned with the eventual affect this volatility of the markets will have on my family.

I was monitoring the Asian markets yesterday with the trouble in Korea (temp halt to trade) and India doing the same during trading and was expecting some of the same doom from the European markets when I got some shuteye.

When I woke up and took a gander at the Euro markets, I was surprised, pleasantly, to see they were in a holding mode as compared to the carnage the day before and earlier in the Asian markets.

I was wondering why, then I remembered GOOLS post of an article discussing an emergency FED meeting Monday night and some anticipation of an emergency rate cut.

It made me wonder if the powers that be in the Euro market were privy to confirmation of a FED cut prior to the announcement before the US markets opened.

I haven't heard anyone, who is tuned into the workings of the markets bring up a possible insider deal. Did they know in advance?

Did they just play the market in anticipation of a rate cut?

For someone who isn't financially committed in the market it stuck out like a sore thumb.

Anyway, I just wanted to toss this into the ring for analysis, I have been watching the Asian markets again and most show a rise, one thing I found interesting is the fact that they are already anticipating a FED cut next week and have actually seen a future FED rate chart into September where the figure was 2.18%. This is on CNBC world, another point was the HONG KONG equivalent to the US fed matched the .75% rate cut.

Like I have said before I am a novice, a novice with OCD
, which is why I have been so deeply involved in learning this market deal so I may say some off the wall things now and then.

I hope you can endure some of my postings in this matter.



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 09:56 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


I seriously thought this was obvious. I'm being serious, not sarcastic.

What we have here is a graph, showing total consumer debt. Let's call this variable X. Let's call the population variable Y. To find the "debt per consumer," we have X/Y.

Let's think about the nature of variable X and Y. We know they both go upward overtime, so the ratio X/Y for any point in time will always be the highest...up to that point. We know this because the nature of X/Y is that each data point is always higher for each successive year for this time period. This chart show this for variable X, and I seriously hope no one questions that the US population ("consumers") goes up every year. You can even take out anyone under 18 for the population, if you like. Divide it up however you want, it still goes up every year.

If you really don't get it you can look up the population data for yourself and divide it. You'll find I'm right, but I refuse to do it for you. The point is - and remains - that the "debt per consumer" is always the "greatest amount of debt historically" every year. Just like the 1980s. Just like it is now. And while I do not doubt that this contributes to recession, its not abnormal in the sense that every recession is always the "highest" amount of debt per consumer.

Now, back to thesis writing.



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 10:14 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


Jesus Christ man.. you are the king of thread derailment with your attitude.. your damn graph does not detail population - pop increase at all .. it shows debt went up over time with presumably a growing population.
The axis on the graph are "years" and "amount of debt". not "population".

By the way, you might want to chill out on the attitude a little.


JacKatMtn:



It made me wonder if the powers that be in the Euro market were privy to confirmation of a FED cut prior to the announcement before the US markets opened.


I don't know about that, it is kind of odd Europe did so well when America was expected to tank.. though I cannot answer as to why that is, I am sure someone here has a logical explanation for exactly why that is.

Though I think everyone anticipated a fed cut during the emergency meeting, and the extreme low futures where there because of the holiday, had the market been down 400 points yesterday, it would have been up nearly 200 today.

Staving off a recession with inflation is the way I see it..

I would bet though, many investors saw that there had to be a rate cut, the Fed wouldn't sacrifice the stocks.



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 10:19 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


You got it, Rockpuck. Before my memory fails me, I have these memories of credit back then.
A home mortgage was paid off in 25 years, not 50!!
A new car loan could be paid off in three years, not 6 or more.
Leasing a car was for a business person, not for someone who couldn't afford to outright buy one.
Gas purchases were made with cash, not a credit card.
Receiving credit was considered a sign that you could and should pay off the balance, a sign of responsibility. It was not given lightly.
There were no pay day loan advance stores on each corner.

Seems to me that as the economy was made to cool back then, as wages were forced downward, one way for people to continue the accustomed standard of living was to buy on credit. Eventually, the only way people could afford to have all these "things" (hell, were'nt we all told to go shopping after 9-11?) was to go deeper into debt, make payments. Somehow we were no longer called citizens but morphed into consumers.

No longer "citizens", we could be pacified as "consumers" with "bread and circuses".



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 10:20 PM
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Very good post and analysis. The only problem is that the Federal Government cannot bail itself out now because they are broke.

Ask yourself who is the federal government?

How much do they owe?

How much do they continue to spend?

Where does the money come from that the federal government use?

Answer those questions and your will see why the Federal government can do almost nothing and the everyone in the financial world knows this deep down.

This correction is going to happen whether people like it or not, but on a good note upon a major crash their is always rebirth of a new market.

Let us hope that we will all learn from our mistakes and not repeat the same ones over.




Originally posted by cpdaman

The Federal Gov't needs to step in and Bailout or takeover and cover the policy's written by the mortgage insurance company's MBIA and AMBAC . This will provide some certainty to the investors that they will be reimburesed somewhat for losses.




posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 10:25 PM
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reply to post by desert
 




No longer "citizens", we could be pacified as "consumers" with "bread and circuses".


Exactly,

The biggest problem with the market, and the reason for these troubles is....

"easy credit" because any average joe making $6 an hour can get a few credit cards, a car loan and a even a new house.


And why is it called "easy credit" lightndarknes? Because it is far, far easier to get credit then it once was, handed out like candy at obscene interest rates people couldn't pay. This would also, most logically, mean that the average person in America has accumulated record amounts of debt, with inflation or not.

In fact, back on 07 the Gov announced that for the first time in history since the Great Depression American citizens had on average a negative savings rate.




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