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RARE WTC IMAGE+VID: Whats Causing this Black Smoke at the Base?

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posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 01:45 PM
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Why would it not be gasoline, with or without arson, with so many vehicles already parked in the sub-levels? It is highly probable and possible. Black smoke is always indicative of carbon based fire not explosives. When gasoline explodes, it is an explosion and sounds like explosion, particually loud in an echo chamber of sub-level floors.

No controlled demolition expert will cut the base first. Not if that expert expects the top of the building to drop into its own footprints. At what time of the morning were the base explosions hear or felt?

IMHO, people agreeing should also reason through all the reasonable possibilities. Or our side just gives legitimate counter fodder to the opposition, when we do not. It is fine to be convinced of a possibility after ruling out all others as impossible. But to allow any unproved conviction(s) to deny any other possibilities, is defeating the purpose of any viable investigation of 9/11/2001.

All we can currently build is the strongest of all circumstantial single case most possible and probable. Unless, we run across far more bona fide physical evidence than currently exists. For instance, individual molecular grains of steel found among the other grains of debris and dust at ground and sub-ground levels.




posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 01:54 PM
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Black smoke usually follows an explosion.


Where theres smoke, theres fire. Hmmm I guess all those witnesses to explosions werent lying.



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 02:07 PM
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reply to post by IvanZana
 


That is not the attitude I was expecting. They said they heard and felt explosions. They did not say they saw what caused the explosions. Black smoke does not always come off explosions. It depends of what explosive is being used, and where it is set off.

Heavy smoke is from any fire or other catalytic reaction which can occur, not the explosives. Gunpowder will give little black smoke compared to a carbon based fire. TNT will give off white puffs of smoke outside where TNT is packed in, such as steel beams.



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 02:26 PM
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I have seen that video before, it is very disturbing to watch the people jump, however, i did NOT notice the black smoke. In fact I dont even think it was there the first time that I saw that video......I could be wrong but i would think that I would notice that. then again I could have not even been paying attention due to the other obvious distraction. Really good find.

I also have wondered about the person who filmed that vid. Did they get the collapse on video? If so, it is possible that they were hurt or even killed....

duh..nevermind...I see now...you are saying that you cannot see that smoke in the video, yet its there in the pic.

[edit on 21-1-2008 by Jeff Riff]



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 05:05 PM
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Thermite causes the white smoke.
Black smoke I have not researched.

I am aware of the multiple explosions from the
underground floors.
The white smoke I cannot grasp because it is happening
before the collaspe.

This is not squibs, so I am curious too.



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 10:16 PM
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Photos insdie the footprint of WTC 1 after the debris was cleared away:

www.drjudywood.com...

That does not look as if walls were caved in. Nor is there any indication of carbon fires along the walls concentrated in the sublevels.

The website also distinctly shows Barkley Street on the north side of WTC 7. Which means, in order to leave by the Barkley Street exit, someone would have to be in WTC 7, not in other buildings of the complex on the south side of WTC 7.

www.drjudywood.com...

www.drjudywood.com...

Coincidentally enough, I have asked the same question, concerning the trajectory out of what appears to be #1 not #2. That will certainly change the trajectory, if flying out of #1 not #2.

I also noted the location of that little crumpled street sign so conveniently lying near what is alleged to be a Flight 11 767 Boeing engine - flying all that distance over all those buildings out of WTC 1. That definitely defies the law of gravity related to weight and mass:

www.drjudywood.com...

www.drjudywood.com...

Laser and DEW technology currently being used in Iraq and compared to 9/11/2001

www.drjudywood.com...



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 10:30 PM
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reply to post by IvanZana
 

i believe that black smoke is caused by a very hot substance known as thermite, which is hot enough to melt the metals used to make the twin towers, BUT the fires on the top caused by the aircraft have a maximum 1800 degree limit and the metals used would only melt from temperatures exceeding 2500 degrees, thermite can get well above 3000 degrees and is often used in controlled demolitions



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 11:42 PM
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Which one of these chemical components, alone or in combination with the others, would emit black smoke?

Aluminum
Iron oxide
Magnesium



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 12:29 AM
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Originally posted by thedman
More likely source was the jet fuel which ran down elevator/service shafts
and ignited in the lobby/basement. First arriving responders found
windows blown out and numerous people burned (some fatal).

I can see that you are new here so I'll try to catch you up
on the WTC elevator design. Each tower was split into 3 sections
(vertically) and separated by a sky lobby at each new section.
The elevators that brought you UP to the first sky lobby WOULD NOT
take you up any further. You had to change elevators to get to the next
section. Then you had to change once again to make it to the top.
So there was NOT ANY elevator that went from top to bottom of
the structure. If coming from the lobby going to the top floor, you
had to change elevators 3 times. Each elevator shaft was hermetically
sealed (air tight) with concrete and rubar and steel. So your notion
of fire going DOWN an elevator to the bottom is pure fantasy.

However, I will say that the elevators in the lobby DID in fact
go down to the sub level basements and parking garages. Which is
where many say the explosions occurred. If they DID occur in the
basement level, then it is possible for the fire to COME up the
shaft to the lobby which fits more to eye witness accounts
than the fire coming all the way down the shafts.

Now you're wondering how explosives got to the basement.

I have misplaced the link now, but I saw photos a while back
of someone who took photos of the basement AFTER it was
bombed and got out in time with the photos before the collapse.
There was only 2 images that I saw. But it is my belief the damage
and casualties in the lobby came from below, not plane level.



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 01:21 AM
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reply to post by IvanZana
 

Ivan: I see what you are saying and I think I know where
this is going.

I believe you are correct. I think the US government
doctored the photos for evidence.

But what point does it help? and
for what end ??

that's a good find my friend ...... well deserving of a star



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 02:20 AM
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what is really sad is if you look at the cover of the stage you can see holes in the top from all the bodies/jumpers that went through it. I wonder what sort of concert they had going on?


XL5

posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 05:39 AM
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Not to argue anything as I feel its pointless but the black in smoke is caused by carbon. So things that are not carbon or carbon based (becomes carbon after being burnt) will not give black smoke. Paper is carbon based, plastic is carbon based, tires have alot of carbon in them, crude oil and gas made from that oil have carbon in them and can make black smoke.

Aluminium, iron oxide (rust) and magnesium do not transmutate into carbon at any time and do not emit black smoke like that. Youtube thermite reactions and look for "black" smoke, you will not find any. No matter how hot thermite or even high carbon steel gets, you will not get BLACK smoke.

As I looked at the pic on page one, I noticed the stage had a chared black mark right beneath a large hole right above it. In the video where no black smoke is visible, there is also no black char mark, maybe it was a burning body that was cleaned up? I don't want to look up what smoke burning bodies give off but that smoke looks like a tirefire or plastic fire.



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 06:36 AM
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Originally posted by IvanZana






Ivan,

I'm sorry if I missed this, but I didn't see where you said you got the top picture. Could you please provide the source because if you compare the top picture to the shot of the video, the top picture isn't even possible. There is no shadow from the building!

(P.S. In regard to your original quesiton about the smoke, one possible explanation comes from radio comms after WTC 1 impact and before WTC 2 impact that stated the stage was on fire.)

[edit on 1-22-2008 by Valhall]



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 06:55 AM
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Okay, I found the actual exhibit pic here and it has the shadow (whew! I was freaking out).


www.rcfp.org...


From this site: www.rcfp.org...

I'm trying to get straight in my head where the vantage point is so I can figure out if the liveleak video is later than the exhibit pic, or earlier than the exhibit pic. Can some one who is familiar with the area assist on this question?



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 06:23 PM
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reply to post by SimonSays
 


Apparently you missed the links on WTC elevator design - there were
several passenger/freight elevators which ran the entire length of the
towers from basement to roof.

In North (1) Tower were high speed passenger elevators running to
the restuarant (WINDOWS ON THE WORLD) on 106/107 floors. Also
were freight elevators running from basement to restaurant as the
kitchen was in the basement (fire inspectors refused to allow gas mains
in building so food was cooked in basement and shuttled to restuarant.

In South (2) tower passenger elevators ran to the observation decks
again on 106/107. Several freight elevators ran entire length of building.




There were two express elevators (#6 and #7) to Windows on the World (and related conference rooms and banquet facilities) in WTC 1 and two to the observation deck in WTC 2. There were five local elevators in each building: three that brought people from the subterranean levels to the lobby, one that ran between floors 106 and 110, and one that ran between floors 43 and 44, serving the cafeteria from the skylobby. All elevators had been upgraded to incorporate firefighter emergency operation requirements




In addition to the passenger elevators, there were seven freight elevators in each tower; most served a particular zone, while Car 50 served every floor.
* Car #5: B1-5, 6, 9-40, 44
* Car #6: B1-5, 44, 75, 77-107


Can see that car 6 shaft ran entire length of building, stopping at sky lobbies, then making stops on each floor above 77. Car 50 shaft also
ran entire building.




And some of the operators then, people in 50 car – 50 car was the car that ran the entire length of the building when the planes came through. In B Tower, they cut the hoist ropes on 50 car A and B – there were two cars in each tower. Basically the buildings were very similar in design, and as far as their elevator structure, it was very similar. So you had matching elevators in each tower. And 50 car, in each tower, ran all floors from B6 up to 109. So that was, again, one of the cars, like 6 and 7 car in A Tower, they ran up to the Windows of the World. I can’t imagine what it must’ve been like when the planes came through.


Diagram of elevators in WTC

911stories.googlepages.com...

There were plenty of paths for jet fuel to run down the shafts and ignite
in the lobby/basement areas as numerous survivors state.



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by thedman
 


Your own source does not say any of what you think your source states. No high rise buildings have elevators running from the sub-levels all the way to top of buildings. Perhaps you should study the mechanics of why that does not happen in high rise buildings.



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 07:01 PM
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Originally posted by thedman
I can’t imagine what it must’ve been like when the planes came through.


There were passengers in car 50 of WTC 1 when the impact occurred and they all made it out alive. In fact, they all made it out without any life-threatening injuries.



There were plenty of paths for jet fuel to run down the shafts and ignite
in the lobby/basement areas as numerous survivors state.


Minus car 50 in WTC 1 because they didn't have jet fuel fall on them, nor did they suffer any type of burns.



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 09:08 PM
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reply to post by Valhall
 





Elevator shafts worked like chimneys, funneling unbearable smoke to floors above the crashes. The shafts also channeled burning jet fuel throughout both towers. Fire moved not only up and down but also side to side, from shaft to shaft, unleashing explosions in elevator lobbies and in restrooms next to the shafts.




...As the American Airlines Flight 11 rammed onto the north tower, the jet fuel was sprayed into a much larger area within the tower, the analysis shows. It documents office workers who reported burning ceilings, floors and elevators at locations throughout the lower reaches of the north tower. Flames even reached the north tower lobby, where several people were severely burned as they stood near the elevators.

 The rapid and wide dispersion of the fuel apparently ignited fires on the 92nd and 93rd floors of the north tower, just below the impact zone, where Carr Futures and Marsh & McLennan had their offices. The fires also engulfed another series of floors just above impact and they somehow spread to the offices of Cantor Fitzgerald in the tower's upper reaches, possibly through a mechanical shaft, the analysis finds.


The shafts were lined not with concrete (too heavy and expensive), but
sheetrock which was easily breached by the impacts and from debris

As for Car 50 and Arturo Griffith - the hoist cables were severed by the
aircraft and car plunged into basement - at last second emergency brakes
locked and stopped decent. Griffith and his passenger Marlene Cruz were
pulled out just before fireball coming down shaft...



The emergency brakes caught after 15 or 16 floors. The imploding elevator door crushed Arturo's right knee and broke the tibia below it. His passenger escaped injury. (The 50 car came to rest just below the B1 landing.)



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 09:14 PM
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reply to post by OrionStars
 


What is your problem? I have posted diagrams of the elevator system
showing there were several passenger/freight elevators which ran length
of building. In the words of General Honore after hurricane Katrina -
"Don't be stuck on stupid"



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 10:13 PM
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thedman,

You really don't have any aversion to just outright embellishing when you tell stories, do ya?



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