Do people who aren’t Christian deserve be tortured in hell?

Originally posted by andre18

Without giving it a whole lot of thought Christians will frequently say all those who don’t accept Jesus deserve to go to hell, they don’t deserve salvation, they deserve to be tortured forever.

...sorry for not reading through the thread but I'm sure it was a tired debate about Hell and evil religion and such.

1) I'm a Christian, spent my life around them. They don't say if you don't accept Jesus you "deserve" to go to hell.
2) what they do say is however not much of an improvement. they say;
a) it is not up to them but God, he is the ulitimate judge.
b) because of that you need to read..blah, blah, in the Bible, that says oh, yee, of unworthy stock and seed, if you don't..blah, blah, then you will burn in torment with the fallen twisted corpse of sin and...blah, blah.
c) they take no responsibility for your beliefs or their own. they have no problem accepting God as a punishing human like King who is Just in all he does so sending people to Hell is his Just perogative.

3) or you get the crowd that martyr themselves when they say it is a Christian's responsibility to "show you the light" and it is their fault for not being an effective missionary or disciple...but of course God will forgive them since they are making this great effort to save your soul.

...As for you, you should stop seeking out the "fringe" Christian's because the majority of us don't think like that.

...If in fact Hell was a "physical" place then you would have as much to fear of it as these fringe Christian's. Because, when a so called Christian misrepresents the message of Christ and it cause you and many others like you to reject (and rightly so) the hypocrisy and the complete lack of sane reasoning, then they are turning you away from him, I could pull out scripture after scripture to throw in their faces about how they themselves are racing their way towards Hell. Ironic obviously.

...Avoid losing arguments with them. "If your God is so loving, then why....?" The fringer's and the literalist will drive you insane with their circular logic.

...be a good person, choose love more often than not love, do on to others, and Jesus will vouch for you because what you did onto others you did onto him. For the pharisies out there, well they will be in for a great dissapointment. Nobody, from any religion, from any culture, is any more or less likely to go to Hell or Heaven.

Originally posted by saint4God
I appreciate your work on the thread, but did want to clarify a point:

Originally posted by miriam0566
first off hellfire is not biblical.

"But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." - Matthew 5:23

"It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell." - Matthew 18:9

"It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." - Mark 9:43

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." - Matthew 25:41

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." - Jude 1:7

There's more surely, these are a few more poignant examples.

[edit on 19-11-2008 by saint4God]

You have pointed out the obvious flaw in Christianity. Their own Bible defeats their own beliefs. I do believe it is possible for there to be a god and maybe...big maybe he came to us as a human Jesus, but I refuse to believe the bible is ALL truth since it was written and edited by man.

Miriam will likely go on to teach his/her, children/friends the same false belief that she posses. That friend/child may go on to become a preacher or maybe write a New New Testament explaining those thoughts. In 1000 years after governments (rewrite) the New New testament to fit the needs of that government people will now believe it is the Word Of God.

The Bible is not the Word of God if there is a god. At best it was inspired by the delusional spiritual thoughts of men and at worst rewrote in a fashion to control the masses, which it has done very well.

I do believe that there may be a God and there could be a Jesus, but not exactly as written in the Bible we see today.

There is a possibility that the gods we know from history were advanced alien race or even a future us. Either of these could also be the UFO's we see today.

Hell does not exist in my opinion. I hope though that we somehow continue on in spirit and awareness after our bodies die. I think this hope of mine is what drives people's faith in religions with promised after life. People hate to think there self awareness can die (end) and become meaningless to the universe.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by Xeven]

reply to post by saint4God


I tend to disagree here.

There are things in the Bible that my spirit feels is truth and there are things my spirit feels is deception. I am a part of Thee and to think Im not worthy of weighing and measuring every seed (even scriptures) would be denying myself of my abilities that Thee can work through me and show me things. Most of the OT is simply History and re telling of older stories and traditions. I also believe we should be careful to assume that all the words of Christ are a literal word for word translation. Christ taught us the power of love and how love conquers all things. Unity, love, peace, harmony, grace and mercy is what Christ taught. I think its important to read all of the text that talk about Christ, NT and gnostic text...for they all hold the foundation of the teachings.

Do you really think its so hard for translators or copiers to place in a few extra words that would tie Jesus to the OT teachings? It wouldnt be hard at all, for the OT teachings were looking for a savior. Yes, Jesus came from this heritage, which is why this heritage is so full of themselves. This was just another testing of the people, to see if the temptation of pride could be fought. Pride has won over being humbled.

The problem with any material is its just that, its material. And frankly, its two different personalities. Either God is bi-polar or God evolves, just like us, and changes. (If you go by the entire Bible). I choose to feel God is constant and non changing. God was love, is love and will be love. But to God, time does not exists, so the was and is and will be is insufficiency of language. I feel that Thee has wovan Thee word throughout many materials for the seeker who searches for growth and wills to do the works of the natural order in all things.

Jesus did bring a path, that path is very valid. But again, we have placed the need for blood apone Gods hands through Christ. I feel Christ did know he would be killed, it wasnt that hard to predict such a thing...look at how many had problems with his teachings. The burnings of scriptures, killings of people...even hunts for heretics by Gods people?!? To think man can not deceive other man is naive. To think man wouldn't take a divine message and work it to mans benefit is blindness to what man is capable of with greed and pride.

What better way to get man to not understand God then to say...God requires blood. This teaching alone is one of the most dangerous teachings that is on this Earth. To think that it wouldn't have been enough for the OT people to simple be aware with in their hearts of greed or pride, aware of asking and receiving forgiveness by a simple pure thought is taking away the majesty of Thee. All Thee needs is awareness of what we do. A humble heart will get you to Thee....and so will following the ways that Christ walked (because this again, would lead you to live a humble life). No blood was ever needed. God needs no material things for our wrong doings. Thee only needs awareness of purification of ones heart, thoughts and soul.

I follow Christs ways...but in no way do I label myself as anything but a divine soul finding my way back home.

LV

Originally posted by jdposey
reply to post by theindependentjournal

 

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (revelation 20:1-15)

These scriptures are pretty clear. If you take the account of Lazarus and the rich man

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

It seems it is hard to analyze this place away as not being actual "flames." I know people do that, but scripture clearly lays it out as it is.

I think humankind is connected to a swirling ball of magnetic waves and light, and our chemical brains and iron filled blood could reach these waves and receive transmissions. That is what I think the religious texts are a product of, visions of the future through someones elses brainwaves. God may have made it this way. But so far all i see is mankind playing god, pretending in desperate hope for reality, reality is chosen moment to moment.

Originally posted by saint4God
Sorry, a person can't parse out some words of the Bible and throw the others away expecting the parts their personal selections to be valid. It's the 'take it or leave it' Word of God.

im not throwing anything away. the scriptures you posted dont conflict with the life or death belief. the scriptures you post dont say that people will be tormented for ever. infact, in one of them jesus was quoting isaiah which specifically mentions the corpses burning (not live people)

however the tormenting hellfire doctrine defiantly conflicts with the scripture i quoted. people who are being tormented in hell cannot be "conscience of nothing at all". it also does mean that they received eternal like even though its reserved for the righteous.

im sorry, but it appears that it is you who is throwing scriptures out in order to support this doctrine

Originally posted by miriam0566
the scriptures you post dont say that people will be tormented for ever.

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

I did post this.

[edit on 21-11-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by miriam0566
the scriptures you post dont say that people will be tormented for ever.

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." - Matthew 25:46

eternal death can also constitute eternal punishment. especially if the "punishment" is death.

god's punishment to adam and eve for eating the fruit was death.

where you are getting "punishment" = torment and torture, i dont know

Originally posted by miriam0566
eternal death can also constitute eternal punishment. especially if the "punishment" is death.

There's no way to feel punished if you do not exist.

Originally posted by miriam0566
god's punishment to adam and eve for eating the fruit was death.

You missed the part about him having to work the land until he died. This was Adam's punishment:

"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field." - from Genesis 3:17


"So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. " - Genesis 3:23

If death were the punishment, he would have simply killed him on the spot.

Regarding other torments and tortures, I did indeed quote them many times before but realize the futility in doing so.

[edit on 21-11-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
There's no way to feel punished if you do not exist.

where does it say you will feel punished? it says they go away to eternal punishment. nothing about feeling it.

If death were the punishment, he would have simply killed him on the spot.

lol. your lack of insight on the matter is astounding. you'd fight tooth and nail to support torment hellfire.

there is nothing, nothing in the bible that suggests that perfect man will grow old and die. letter to romans specifically says that the wages sin pays is death.

adam growing old and dying was exactly what god said would happen if he ate the fruit. he said in that day you will positively die. within a very short period (900 years compared to eternity is short) adam died.

going back to romans, if adam paid for his sin, is there further need to have him roast in eternal torment?

how does a person, who paid their sins when they die, deserve more punishment?

if bad people go to hell, then how does john 5:29 fit into all of it?

how does hell get thrown into the lake of fire? (rev 20:14)

Regarding other torments and tortures, I did indeed quote them many times before but realize the futility in doing so.

you support a doctrine that testifies that god is a god of hate, you conflict with 1 john 4:8

Now that was great stuff Miriam, no wonder I remember you.
We don't seem to differ much on Hell from what I gathered on
your last couple of posts.
Punishment = death......doesn't conflict with my core mantra.

[edit on 28-11-2008 by Res Ipsa]

[edit on 28-11-2008 by Res Ipsa]

you have a very good point,im a christian and i dont think anyone deserves to have horrible things like that done,its horrible!!! who does that?reply to post by andre18