Koran a FAKE

Originally posted by kangjia57
Subhanalah (azawajal),kyaaa Shayr Sunaya hai Aap Nay. Yeh Kutay kaafir kabhi nahin samjhaygain Islam kO. Inka raasta sidaa jahanam jata hai

Islam Zindabad,Kufar Murdabad.

Do you know of the T&C's stating all posts on this website will be in English?

But that isn't my main concern. From what I could understand (and surely I will be wrong on some accounts), it seems you just accused us of being in the CIA (or at least mentioned the CIA), called us unbelievers, stated something will happen in August, and said we are doomed to Hell for certain because we do not accept Islam. I can see why you would not have wanted to say that in English.

If I'm wrong, kindly translate what you and Unletterd said In English.

[edit on 1/22/2008 by AshleyD]

Reply to AshleyD

But that isn't my main concern. From what I could understand (and surely I will be wrong on some accounts), it seems you just accused us of being in the CIA, called us unbelievers, and said we are doomed to Hell for certain. I can see why you would not have wanted to say that in English. And I'm the bigot for asking about the history of the Koran?

No its another poetry in Urdu from me.

Let me translate for you.Sorry for not putting on the translation before which leads to misunderstanding.

Subhanalah (azawajal),kyaaa Shayr Sunaya hai Aap Nay.

“Glory be to Allah” What a beautiful poetry you have told me.

Yeh Kutay kaafir kabhi nahin samjhaygain Islam kO.

Only if the innocent unbeliever understand what Islam is.

Inka raasta sidaa jahanam jata hai

There distiny is in the hands of the God.

Islam Zindabad,Kufar Murdabad.

ISlam will previal,others will realise the Truth.

Originally posted by porky1981
I had a discussion with a 'muslim' colleague at work. He strongly denied this non-sense and actually didn't want to talk about it.... which is similar to the entire muslim world, thick-headed ignoramus' who can't see beyond what they are told about their religion.... it's a shame.

You pretty much defined the vast majority of religious adherents in any religion. This type of resistance to objective scrutiny is seen not just in Islam but in all relgions I have ran into except Zen Buddhism. But that's an anomaly.

On the other hand however. Given that religions are narratives which give people a way to intepret their lives, it seems a bit odd to push objective truth on it (unless it is becomming harmful to itself or others).

Objective truth has no place in relgion; as much as religious adherents would like to believe it to be so. So, it's always a losing proposition to attempt to "debunk" a religion, simply because it does not have it's legitimacy in a proof-based dialog (although Islam likes to think it does), but in it's own story telling and societal acceptance. That is where it gets its legitmacy from.

Reply to Quazga

it does not have it's legitimacy in a proof-based dialog (although Islam likes to think it does), but in it's own story telling and societal acceptance. That is where it gets its legitmacy from.

So what kind of ‘objective truth’ do you want to realise that Islam is Right and Supersedes all other religions?

Religion = Belief. Sometimes those beliefs are based in facts. Sometimes they are not. There is a truth, one truth, and that truth is absolute regardless of whether or not we know what that one truth is.

Jesus Christ was either the son of God or He was not. One of those statements is true. If we believe He was not, that is our belief. If we believe He was, that is out belief. Our belief will not change what the absolute truth is as to whether or not He was the son of God just because we are not aware of it.

The truth will come out eventually. Some will be proven right and some will be proven wrong. Belief or skepticism will not alter the existence of the absolute truth. It is what it is.

reply to post by AshleyD


Well said AshleyD.

That in itself should be the "end all" of the conversation regarding "competing" faiths.

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to heliosprime

The Koran denies that Jesus is the son of GOD.



My friend heliosprime please bring some evidence to support you views.

You come out with utter BS.

Jesus — The Koran denies point blank that Jesus was the Son of God (Sura 112:2-3). It also denies His atoning sacrifice by claiming that he never died (Sura 4:157). A substitute died for Him on the Cross. Jesus was translated to Heaven, like Enoch, where He will remain until He returns to kill all pigs, destroy all crosses, and convert the world to Islam. Jesus will marry, reign for 40 years and then die and be buried next to Muhammad in Medina.8 Jesus is characterized in the Koran as nothing more than “an apostle of Allah” (Sura 4:171).

How's that?????????????????

www.apologeticsindex.org...

Perhaps the truth is wasted on the ignorant? Those closed minded who wish to ignore reality. Be put back into the matrix.........

Step towards the light my "friend" and loose your heel from the cowpie of life....

Originally posted by heliosprime
reply to post by babloyi

 

Actually you have well answered the original issue raised. The entire track of the Koran, and additional "clarifications" are all "suspect". In your own words you begin to backtrack and deny.

The purpose of this thread is to indicate the false nature of the Koran, in actual text, in application, in general. The greatest conspiracy is a religion totally based on lies that demands absolute devotion of its followers to those lies, to the point of suicide and murder.

The Koran demands death, lies, and murder to follow the "prophet". And yet, its own followers hide the truth of "IF" is was even inspired by their own prophet at all.

The bible has been "picked" appart for centuries, yet still stands with original texts being found dating back 1000's of years.

But you aren't using the Quran. You've been quoting from answering-islam.com. I'm sorry, but muslims do not use answering-islam as a scripture. The quotes from the website were all from some book by some guy called "Guillaume", who again, muslims do not believe had anything to do with islam. The book by Guillaume makes ample use of Sirat (which while they might be useful and interesting, are unverifiable, and nobody uses them as scripture- they are not hadith).

So far you've had no proof (or even reference to) the QURAN ITSELF, in it's 114 surahs, or even the collection of VERIFIED HADITH, with proper isnad. So once again, no, the Quran does not demand death, lies and murders of those who follow the 'prophet'.

Originally posted by babloyi

So far you've had no proof (or even reference to) the QURAN ITSELF, in it's 114 surahs, or even the collection of VERIFIED HADITH, with proper isnad. So once again, no, the Quran does not demand death, lies and murders of those who follow the 'prophet'.

OK, show me proof from your side that what I have used is wrong........show me proof the references are BS.............

Anyone can say "your wrong" a zillion times......show proof dicounting the text indicated............and why.............

reply to post by heliosprime


This should really come as no suprise to informed people in the west, as the Bible has also been acedemically proved to be mostly imaginative 're-interpretation' too. Why should the Koran be any different? The more information that is unearthed about these religions, the more they unravel.

J.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Religion = Belief. Sometimes those beliefs are based in facts. Sometimes they are not. There is a truth, one truth, and that truth is absolute regardless of whether or not we know what that one truth is.

Jesus Christ was either the son of God or He was not. One of those statements is true. If we believe He was not, that is our belief. If we believe He was, that is out belief. Our belief will not change what the absolute truth is as to whether or not He was the son of God just because we are not aware of it.

The truth will come out eventually. Some will be proven right and some will be proven wrong. Belief or skepticism will not alter the existence of the absolute truth. It is what it is.

Hmmm...there's one more possibility that you didn't mention of course. Perhaps Jesus never even existed? There is little or no historical proof that he did, after all. Personally, I'd say it's also the most likely 'truth' re: 'Jesus'. The same probably holds for Mohammed too, although I've never really done any research into the muslim faith. Generally I find, if you dig deep enough, this turns out to be the case with all deities.

J.

Here is a new question about the Koran that is interesting. Since we have quite a few Muslims interested in this thread, I'd like to get your opinion on it.

What do you guys think of the Satanic verses from Mohammad? Some think this event truly occurred and some say it did not.

For those who have no clue what I'm talking about: The Satanic Verses of the Koran.

Wikipedia is a pretty secular source not really known for its reliability concerning religion so let's get to the source. What's all this about? Were the Satanic verses initially included in the Koran and later retracted?

Originally posted by jimbo999
Hmmm...there's one more possibility that you didn't mention of course. Perhaps Jesus never even existed? There is little or no historical proof that he did, after all.

There was really no need to mention that option as nobody on this thread appears to be so dense as to believe Jesus never existed. The statement "there is little or no historical proof" that He existed is false. There are more historical references to Jesus being a real human being than Socrates, Alexander the Great, and Apollonius. And not just from the Bible but from secular, pagan, Hebrew, and extrabiblical Christian sources. There was no point in brining it up since everyone on this thread so far has had an IQ over 25!

Originally posted by heliosprime
OK, show me proof from your side that what I have used is wrong........show me proof the references are BS.............

Anyone can say "your wrong" a zillion times......show proof dicounting the text indicated............and why.............

But I thought this thread was about whether the QURAN was fake or not. None of those references you showed are from the Quran. Are they relevant to the discussion?

If one is only going to look at one side of the arguments, obviously one will not see all the answers. There are millions of rebuttals to almost every article at answering-islam.com. Some of them are as nasty as answering-islam.com itself.

PS: You still haven't replied to my question here. Tnt3kgt suggested a reason, but I can't see that it would be true, considering that it is pretty obvious that muslims do not believe Jesus was the begotten Son of God.

Look it is ALL fake. Jews Christians Muslims whatever.....all crapola invented by man to keep man in line. I am sure Jesus was a heck of a guy, and a awesome man......but to base a faith on anything but science is for the weak. Of course faith and science dont mix well......so we are left with our tribal wars and idiots praying to win the lottery.

This is a really interesting thread and I've read all 8 pages of it. It's just sad to me that SO much interesting information is here and this could really have resulted in a great conversation between all faiths, including Islam, to learn more about the Koran and Mohammed.

Unfortunately, it seems that Christians basically aren't allowed to have opinions. If they have a negative opinion on any belief (not even necessarily religion) other than Christianity, well, their religion's a load of BS so they have no right to talk.

As far as I'm concerned, I could believe that there's a race of purple cats that live beneath the earth that will rise after an asteroid hits and come take us away to a land where we will do nothing but drink purple milk and lay in window sills. --- And it would still be ok for me to have an opinion on the historical accuracy of the Koran.

So I really don't understand why 80% of this thread is about Christianity. There are enough threads about how Christianity is a bunch of hullabaloo. I clicked on this because I wanted to learn about the Koran.

As for the topic: I read the Koran a long time ago, like 7 years ago. I really can't remember much, but I do remember being absolutely shocked by how... well, mean it was!

"I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM. THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER - THEN SURELY ALLAH IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS - TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day - unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company - then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; (8:12-17)"

www.blessedcause.org...

Yikes.

As for the historical accuracy, we all knew there wasn't much, just like there isn't much for Buddhists and others. Mohammed was illiterate, as was most of the 6th century Arab world. The same can be said for Indian society 2550 years ago when Buddha achieved enlightenment.

Originally posted by babloyi

But I thought this thread was about whether the QURAN was fake or not. None of those references you showed are from the Quran. Are they relevant to the discussion?

Yet again, you dodge the question. The Koran is written is such a way as it must be "applified" in other texts. The texts I used are from "The Life of Muhammad", by A. Guillaume, which is a rendering of Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah", a biography of Muhammad written by an early Muslim scholar.

Here is more........

The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali’s translation of the Qur’an. The Qur’an tells us: not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (5:51), kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (9:5). The Qur’an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them (8:65). Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (9:29). Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (9:3). Our God tells us to fight the unbelievers and He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them (9:14).

patrick.net...

Originally posted by jackieisinlove
As for the topic: I read the Koran a long time ago, like 7 years ago. I really can't remember much, but I do remember being absolutely shocked by how... well, mean it was!

"I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM. THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER - THEN SURELY ALLAH IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS - TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day - unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company - then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; (8:12-17)"

www.blessedcause.org...

Yikes.

Finally! Somewhat back on topic! Thanks, jackieisinlove. First off, you might be interested in knowing that the site you quoted from chopped off the first part of that verse: "When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast...". So the message was not to people, but to the angels (who were helping the muslims in time of battle). The rest of the quote is stuff telling the muslims never to retreat in cowardice, because Allah will always help them.

So, according to this verse of the Quran, IN A TIME OF WAR, muslims should not retreat out of fear or cowardice, because Allah will help them. Some Christians (sorry if you are annoyed at me bringing christianity back into the mix, but that is what Islam is always compared to in situations involving war) may say that it is better to turn the other cheek, and while this may be very worthy and noble, it is not always practical- if one is being attacked, I see no wrong in fighting back.

To bring this thread further back on track, it might be useful to understand what is meant by the 'fake' in the subject line.
- If that means is the Quran actually from God- that really can't be answered satisfactorily to all parties (although I personally feel that there are far too many signs that show that it couldn't have been from your average joe, or even genius, in Arabia in the 6th century)
- If that means was the Quran actually dictated by Muhammad (regardless of how HE got it)- I'd say yes, and it is pretty easily provable (seeing the vast amounts of data on the existence of Muhammad)

reply to post by TXMACHINEGUNDLR


Science and faith not compatable? True science, in pure form, is the work of GOD. It is nonsense to think otherwise.

Many, many, athieistic scientist have become devout Christians when they reach a point where to pure science points to an original creator. It becomes obvious that someone designed all things.

However, the Koran is a fabrication of a sick and twisted human influenced by satan for the soul purpose of tricking a great multitude into worshipping a false god and to fight against the true messiah in the end of days.....

There are many texts written by muslim scholars that show the vile acts of thier own "prophet". Jesus taught peace and love.

Originally posted by heliosprime
Yet again, you dodge the question. The Koran is written is such a way as it must be "applified" in other texts. The texts I used are from "The Life of Muhammad", by A. Guillaume, which is a rendering of Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah", a biography of Muhammad written by an early Muslim scholar.

No, I don't believe that the Quran is written in such a way that it needs to be 'applified' in other texts (whatever that means). And as I've told you SO many times already, the "Sirat Rasulallah" is not a part of the scripture (as it cannot be verified for reliability and authenticity).

As for the new list from the new anti-islam site, you'll be happy to know that every one of those verses have been addressed (how they've been misquoted, and taken out of context, and jumbled up) many, many, many times (by myself, even), in many threads on ATS:

www.belowtopsecret.com...

www.belowtopsecret.com...

www.belowtopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.islamic-shield.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I'm sure you'll appreciate all this info.