Koran a FAKE

From: Cybrseer

I am concerned that we have strayed to far from the original thread. It may be prudent to start a new thread in continuation of our current discussion. If anyone feels the same, I would humbly accept an invitation to join a new thread.


Cybrseer

I've been thinking the same...but where would we creat a new thread?

Neither ATS nor BTS has a philosophy section.

Would it fall under "Faith and Spirituality"?

reply to post by Kyuubi


I think that is an excellent choice. We do not have a forum just for your purposes, but that is the closest fit that I can think of. After all, it is about what is considered the essence of the art of being a human.

reply to post by Kyuubi


Great idea... philosophy as a forum by itself without "religious overtones and undertones" in relation to larger human issues other than something as feeble as religion would be music to my ears. A bit upscale intellectually for this market though (JMHO).

The Qu'ran isn't fake, neither is any other religious document "per se"... might be a fraud, might be misrepresentative but not fakes as in Fox or Faux or 43 or Coulter; the "New Bible" for some. Most books proffering a religious view are really good story books and very entertaining...

I used to love "decapitating" professors in front of 3 or 400 students. Like playing hackey-sack with ideas. Great sport. Philosophy can be a blood sport. I like O-Neg and Kant.

A philosophy forum. Geez, I could play all sides against the others at once... my enemy's enemy is my... entertainment. LOL.

Vic

reply to post by NGC2736


Well, I'm glad you think so.

How does everyone feel about this? Shall we move?

[edit on 18-2-2008 by Kyuubi]

reply to post by Kyuubi


Go through normal channels... U2U it up the command chain see what's on the breeze?

Cheers K!

Vic

reply to post by V Kaminski


A philosophy forum is a great idea too, but, the study of such is not "anti-religion". Philosophy is the study of many religions.

Perhaps "Athiest Philosophy" would be more appropriate.

I would like to say that from what I know of Islam, which comes from reading an English translation of the Qur'an and talking to friends of mine who are Muslim, that they do, in fact, consider Jesus as a great prophet on a par with Muhammed himself. But they, like the Jewish religion do not consider Jesus to be the son of God. That is the only difference between them and Christianity. And while there may be things that I disagree with in both the Qur'an and the Talmud, along with the Christian Bible, I find that they all contain much more in the way of truth and good rules of life to live by. And it is quite clear from all three religions that we all worship the same God. I think that there is a small minority in each of the major religions that are fanatical about their devotion to one over the others that they lose sight of this basic fact. Most believers don't, however, lose sight of this fact and are more than willing to live in peace and harmony with each other. Afterall, isn't this what God, Jesus and Muhammed and all the other profits would have us do. Dosn't the bible clearly tell us that we are to love our neighbors AND our enemies as we love ourselves? This is what the NWO 'powers that be' would have us do just so that we would fight each other so that they can keep a firm hold on the reins of power.

reply to post by Kyuubi


Ok great. Let's move to "Faith and Spirituality".

I will start a new thread titled:

Can mankind achieve omniscience?

Cybrseer

reply to post by cybrseer


Sweet.

I'm glad we're doing this. For a while, this thread was going nowhere, with Helios. We've turned it into a nice discussion.

For anyone interested...

Can mankind achieve omniscience?

[edit on 18-2-2008 by Kyuubi]

Originally posted by Wally Conley
That is the only difference between them and Christianity. And while there may be things that I disagree with in both the Qur'an and the Talmud, along with the Christian Bible, I find that they all contain much more in the way of truth and good rules of life to live by. And it is quite clear from all three religions that we all worship the same God.

This is truely sad. The LIE that is islam continues. Here is truth:

God — The Koran asserts that the god of Islam is the God of Christians and Jews (Sura 29:46). Nothing could be farther from the truth.7

The god of Islam, Allah, is most definitely not the God of the Bible. Allah is presented in the Koran as an autocratic ruler who is aloof and arbitrary (Sura 5:40). Allah is unknowable whereas the God of the Bible is knowable (2 Timothy 1:12). Allah is impersonal, unlike the personal God the Scriptures reveal (1 Peter 5:6-7). Allah is unitarian (Sura 4:48) whereas the God of the Bible is trinitarian (2 Corinthians 13:14). Here is what the Koran says about the God of the Bible (Sura 4:171): “Believe in Allah and say not ‘Trinity.’ Cease! It is better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from his transcendent majesty that he should have a son.”

Allah is capricious (Sura 2:284), whereas the true God is trustworthy. And Allah is never anywhere presented as a god of love — which is the essence of the nature of the true God (1 John 4:7-16).

Jesus — The Koran denies point blank that Jesus was the Son of God (Sura 112:2-3). It also denies His atoning sacrifice by claiming that he never died (Sura 4:157). A substitute died for Him on the Cross. Jesus was translated to Heaven, like Enoch, where He will remain until He returns to kill all pigs, destroy all crosses, and convert the world to Islam. Jesus will marry, reign for 40 years and then die and be buried next to Muhammad in Medina.8 Jesus is characterized in the Koran as nothing more than “an apostle of Allah” (Sura 4:171).

www.apologeticsindex.org...

Many will attack the "site" but none have shown it to be false.

To say Christianity, Judaisim, and islam are "equal" is like saying Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao, and Lenin are the same as Churchill because they were all "leaders" of their countries.

Originally posted by heliosprime
www.apologeticsindex.org...

Many will attack the "site" but none have shown it to be false.

They have actually. Numerous times on this very forum. You are not the first to have posted from that site. You are probably not even the 10th.

The first point presented is that God is "an autocratic ruler who is aloof and arbitrary" in the Quran, and it uses 5:40 as validation. I'm not sure how 5:40 applies in this case:

Surah 5, verse 39-40
But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms himself, then surely Allah will turn to him mercifully; Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Most Merciful Merciful.
Do you not know that to Allah alone belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? He punishes whom He will, and forgives whom He will. Allah has power over all things.

This is something of a response to those (Mainstream Christians) who say that God is incapable of being with those of sin, and that God cannot accept the forgiveness of someone who asks it unless they accept that Jesus died for their sins. That 'the wages of sin is death', with no exceptions. The God of the Quran is Merciful, as well as Just.
Besides, all Christianity is not the same either. According to some members here, the God of the Bible is 'arbitrary' (I believe it was WiseSheep who said that 'no matter how much research or seeking one does, unless God wishes that they see the truth, they will never see the truth, never).

The only other Quranic quote of note from that text is 2:284, which is basically the same as 5:40. The rest of the quotes deal with the the divinity of Jesus Christ, which as Wally Conley said, is the only major difference between Islam and Judaism, and Christianity.

Originally posted by babloyi
The first point presented is that God is "an autocratic ruler who is aloof and arbitrary" in the Quran, and it uses 5:40 as validation. I'm not sure how 5:40 applies in this case:

Surah 5, verse 39-40
But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms himself, then surely Allah will turn to him mercifully; Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Most Merciful Merciful.
Do you not know that to Allah alone belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? He punishes whom He will, and forgives whom He will. Allah has power over all things.

Interesting twist on words the version you used.......

Here is the very same verse......

40 Knowest thou not that unto Allah belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth ? He punisheth whom He will, and forgiveth whom He will. Allah is Able to do all things.

Notice how the tone is different between the cleaned up version ou used and the one from the following website. This one sounds pretty "aloof" to me...

From....

THE MEANING OF THE GLORIOUS QURAN
by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall
Hyderabad-Deccan : Government Central Press
[1938]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is M.M. Pickthall's English rendering of the Qur'an. It is technically not in the public domain in the US, because it was published in India after 1922. However, Pickthall died in 1936, so it is now in the public domain in countries with the death+50 public domain rule (e.g. Australia, Pakistan, Canada), and it will be in the public domain in countries with the death+70 rule as of the end of 2006 (e.g. UK and countries in the European Union).

www.sacred-texts.com...

reply to post by heliosprime


I was quoting from memory, Although I don't see any major difference. Why is it showing 'aloofness'?

As far as I can see, the meaning is exactly how I said, except perhaps in clearer language:

*But whoso repenteth after his wrongdoing and amendeth*
But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms himself

*lo! Allah will relent toward him.*
then surely Allah will turn to him mercifully;

*Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.*
Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Most Merciful
(Here I added a second 'merciful' by mistake. I hope you forgive me for that)

*Knowest thou not that unto Allah belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth ?*
Do you not know that to Allah alone belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth?

*He punisheth whom He will, and forgiveth whom He will.*
He punishes whom He will, and forgives whom He will.

*Allah is Able to do all things.*
Allah has power over all things.

[edit on 19-2-2008 by babloyi]

reply to post by babloyi


Again, you strategically focus on the closest similarity, BUT what about the other issus in the quote?

Allah being untrustworth. Please defray the quote used as wrong.......

The biggest issue is the flat denial of Jesus as the son of GOD. That is not a small issue.

Please help me understand, provide specific quotes and links about the other issues raised.

Originally posted by heliosprime
Again, you strategically focus on the closest similarity, BUT what about the other issus in the quote?

Closest similarity? I do not understand.

Originally posted by heliosprime
Allah being untrustworth. Please defray the quote used as wrong.......

Defray? Undertake the payment of? How is Allah being untrustworth?

Originally posted by heliosprime
The biggest issue is the flat denial of Jesus as the son of GOD. That is not a small issue.

But this is what Wally Conley said, which you called 'the lie of Islam', and then quoted that site, which said basically the same thing.

Originally posted by heliosprime
Please help me understand, provide specific quotes and links about the other issues raised.

Understand what? Specific quotes and links about what issues?

reply to post by babloyi



WOW you need to be on "dancing with the stars". Did you play professional "dodgeball"?

reply to post by heliosprime

Dancing on the stars? So, we've reached the personal attacks now?

I'm sorry, but perhaps you were very excited when you wrote that post, because I really didn't understand anything of it. You mentioned a 'closest similarity', which I really don't get what you are talking about. The Quran talks about what the Quran talks about. It is a silly business to attempt to extract meanings that are not there. How does it show that Allah is 'untrustworth'? And what did you mean by 'Please defray the quote as wrong? (As far as I can tell, 'defray' means 'undertake the payment of, which really doesn't mean anything here).

[edit on 21-2-2008 by babloyi]

reply to post by babloyi


Defray, yes "undertake the payment of"...errr....prove the data wrong. Make payment on proof the statements were wrong..............

Sorry if you thought the joke was a personal attack. Your last go-around seemed as it you were "dancing around the facts" and "Dodging the facts"...OH come-on it was funny..............

After reading most posts i'd just like to offer my humble opinion?

if Gos (allah) budha or anyone else wanted to give us written guidance then i would think if divinity has the power to reveal it'self to people then divinity would have given us a book that to this day would be in it's original form!

Please all bear iin mind that back when the bible was written Wine was heavily consumed due to the fact that water would have killed!

Also this is true of mohammeds time! and whilst having the revalations one has to remember mohammed hadn't eaten!

If you don't eat people tend to faint...Hallucinate!...Drift in and out of consciensness.

you also have to look at various other aspects of life back then political situations persicution of christians. Roman empire expansion!

Islam was created so a new political power could rise in the middle east.

we ahve many othger false religions and im not saying christianity hasn't been bastardised.

whilst we have diffrent religions we will always have conflict.