Pseudoskeptics and Disinformants on ATS

reply to post by hildar

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Can you link to this real thing that NASA said is going to happen in 2012?

Anyway the 2012 skeptics are usually having a go at the people who come here and just make a thread saying something like "I have a special knowledge that something is going to happen in 2012! woooo! but i can't tell you what it is!" etc, etc
(e.g. Dark Kn1ght's thread (no disrespect to that thread, i thought it was interesting but the arguing just got out of hand))

We get a LOT of those. If someone was to actually make a thread about something that we could all see was clearly going to happen, and give some good reasons then maybe it would be a bit easier to discuss.

reply to post by malganis

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Yep and I posted it in here for both NOAA and NASA. And I have read his threads but I dont agree with the Nibiru and maybe Nibiru has Aliens on it bull. unless if I can prove something then I have to remain with the maybe its not true???

Hilda

[edit on 19-1-2008 by hildar]

reply to post by malganis

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If you are familiar with the 9/11 conspiracy forum, i.e., have posted on it and followed threads for some time then you will know that the poster known as CaptainObvious has recently come under attack for postings and threads that some people think are frivolous, cheaply personal or possibly trojan horse like in the sense of introducing paid government shills into the forum.

Personally, I think he is just psychologically tenacious. I don't think he is a plant and never have, but his example helps to understand the terrain.

This is a borderline, judgement call. How could anyone prove an allegation one way or another in this case? There are other posters who seem irrational or who simply ignore rationality in their posts. I'm not going to run down the examples for you. If you have followed controversial threads in these forums you will have seen it for yourself.

It's very hard to come to any definitive conclusions about these cases without employing a private investigator.

Folks, believe in the Vultures/Pseudoskeptics, or don't; but the important thing is, when being "ganged up on" like Skyfloating talked about - don't let them rattle you! As that's precisely what they want. They want you to get upset and emotional and screw up and look stupid! Or, give up and stop posting....

Yeah I have noticed that with threads that are controversial. Thats one reason why I dont mind reading things but most of it I try and not get to involved in. Like 911. And many other things. But when it comes down to 2012 stuff I like to read up on it, yet my views are usually I know something will happen not just what. This way I sort of stay out of the line of fire. Now Nibiru I am trying to debunk a ton of stuff I have found on it, yet also I am trying to prove it may exist. One never knows until we can prove or disprove anything. Yet I would rather disprove my own evidence any day then to prove it. By the way if you need a PI my husband is one, I just do some of the extras when he needs it done.

Hilda

I don't know have disinfo agents or someone maybe some part in this thing at they get people interested away from very very important thing. People are not interested help with us in this "Worldwide diplomacy with E.T people" to get this done early maybe in this month or next month or before summer. There is some people who are helping in this thing, but i talk now at most of people are not interested about helping with us in this thing. Some people get away people interest from this thing that way at they talk this like "YEAR 2012 WORLDWIDE CONTACT WILL HAPPEN". Really? So most of them move to "Waiting stance". I were one day one of these who were in "Waiting stance", but after someday my mind came, "I need to do something at this thing get done". When i was "waiting stance" waiting 2012 year, i just wanted time go fastly forward, so i fooled just around that time without doing something to get thing done. Mostly played just only games.

I would like to see in our population cooperate working with this thing. In my area, i have no one who would be interested to help with this thing, so i need to wait at this "Worldwide diplomacy with E.T people" will reach my area from some other area. That's why i then asking through internet help for this. I don't know do i get any help to this thing from here when i posted this to this thread, but i give an try and watch. I hope you who reading this here, don't ignore this thing and throw this to death grounds. This is really important thing where is important at we working together. More detail from this you find out my new threads what i have done.

If you like to help with us in this "Worldwide diplomacy with E.T people" to get this faster done, i thank you allready. Now its bye.

Ever see that Batman film with Jim Carrey? At the end of it the villain who has to decide what to do by throwing a coin is fooled into throwing one up in the air to see which side it lands on. As he throws it up in the air Batman throws a whole roll of same coins up too. The villain can no longer tell which is which and, confused, falls to his death.

Signal is lost in all the noise, and the job of the disinformation agent is done.

My personal belief is that even one or more of the people with their own forums is a disinformation agent. And all the neurotics with their unstable mental states compelling them to post the unknowable for the unwary only adds to the noise.

I think the mendaciousness aspect of the terms and conditions needs to be more strongly policed. How exactly to do that would of course trigger another talkfest but it is not impossible. Here is a suggestion list.

CRITERIA FOR A THREAD MAKING A CLAIM:

1. if the claim relates to the physical world of the senses, then it needs to have some form of evidence to be credible.

2. if the claim relates to something that is not verifiable then it can't truly be treated as something physical and should be only allowed in one of the forums here that allows such postings. For example a lot of the "Venus is habitable like Earth" stuff is unverifiable due to the rejection of conventional evidence and even empirical science by some of the OPs. Leaving aside the question of deliberate disinformation or sick mendacity as a motivation for starting such a thread, whatever the motivation, these threads are not conducive of proof based on ordinary rules of perception and physical universal constants. So it is needlessly provocative to have them in a forum where the apparent tone indicates generally that physical proof is desirable.

3. INDUCTIVE reasoning threads should be clearly labelled as such by Mods if the original poster doesn't.

4. THEORIES as opposed to OBSERVATIONS should be clearly labelled as such.

Even as a commercial operation, ATS should guard against too many new visitors getting turned off. For the longest time I was personally totally turned off joining up, and I am a personal witness to the interior of one of the bases people are preoccupied here, as well as a compiler of other data sources... I would like to think that my profile means I have a home of some sort here as long as I manage to behave myself for long enough periods of time. But who knows. Sometimes it seems that multiple threads inspired by an original good thread exist for no reason other than to stifle rather than promote debate. Signal to noise ratio...

reply to post by DogHead

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I actually was just talking to a friend about that at hub, she said she would like to join here and give out a few of her theories like mine, but as I told her if she did she would be in for one heck of a time. I believe they need to have certain areas for these things and keep the others where they want to be where the proof is.

Truthfully I am starting to get tired of it. And thats why I keep leaving. Sooner or later alot of us will leave from disgust. The mods need to do something. I feel if we have something on our minds we should be able to say it without being jumped on completely.

Hilda

reply to post by Skyfloating

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Hitting the nail on the head would be an understatement, because you've just hit with a "jackhammer".

Before posting a thread not only does one have to know what he's talking about and be knowledgeable about the topic or have some type of prosaic understanding of what he wants to discuss or get feedback on, one has to prepare for the wave of negative energies of some individuals who have hidden agendas which have nothing positive to report or give to the poster. There are many here on ATS unfortunately who deal this way, so I guess this is part of our penitence and our price which we have to pay to grow and evolve.

Thanks for this thread Skyfloating which will give me some inspiration to go on and dare to write even though THEY LURK .

You got star and flag in my book

An earlier poster, on page one, 'IvanZana', tried to inject 9/11 into THIS thread with a blanket 'statement' that the 'United93' thread he was referring to showed a complete lack of evidence of some peoples's pet theories regarding that flight...that is, he 'asserted' that NO ONE can prove there was a real airplane there. Of course, this is a minority viewpoint, yet it is promoted as 'fact'. THAT is why we should always be skeptical, not because we are on someone's payroll (I certainly am not) but because we are critical thinkers, able to examine both sides and weigh what is logical, and what is not.

Did not want to raise that terrible flag again, but it seems to be pertinent when emotions get too high in a debate...sometimes we may be too quick to cry 'Foul!' and assume there is a conspiracy when, in fact, it is just a difference of opinion based on different interpretations of disparate information sources.

Thanks for your consideration.

anything that has not been proved to be impossible must be treated as possible.

Impossibility is a tremendously high standard of proof given that humans are not educated enough in the laws of the universe to be able to state anything with certainty.

Legal standards of proof honestly applied at least offer degrees of certainty and have been tried and tested for centuries despite all the abuses.

Since nothing can be "proven impossible" we would be left with having to accept everything as possible. I think most people could live with that as long as we can somehow rate the likelihood of what we are dealing with and as long as we adopt a truly scientific approach- accept theories until better theories come along to replace them, and always keep an open (but skeptical) mind.

reply to post by Skyfloating

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So where do I sign up to get paid?

Seriously, I think this claim is entirely without evidence.

We get all types here. Some are just attention seekers, some are just looking to prove to the world what they know is the truth. Some are stuborn to a fault. Some are downright paranoid. Note the word "some". We also get internet gangs. Most of these are easily seen.

Do we get disinfo agents? I think so. There's a couple I'm DAMN sure of.

reply to post by intrepid

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Thanks, Intrepid,

"Internet gangs"...wow, not surprised that others know how to write code and hack and all that...and all I can do is type letters from the keyboard!

...and have to edit my typos as well!...

Point is, in my opinion (IMO)...I get some of the lingo...we are fortunate to have a great site here, that is very well monitored. By people who know what they are doing, and are very fair in their decisions. NO! I am not trying to suck up to anyone, I am simply stating an observation I have made after only a few months here...I signed up in early October 2007, didn't 'lurk'...well maybe for a few days, but didn't take me long to realize I had something to contribute.

As to the concept of 'Disinfo' agents or, and I gag a little as I type these letters, 'Pseudoskeptics'...well, I don't know. Isn't that the point of a Conspiracy Site? Meaning, if you THINK you recognize a member who might be doing the 'disinfo' or 'disinfoming'....HOW would you know?

ATS is (and I've only been here since early October, 2007...but I am fascinated) is ... oops, that's redundant...

ATS is a site to allow anyone to contribute. Bad contributions, by bad people, will be dealt with. The majority of members on ATS are not naive....especially the senior members.

I am just happy to be able to write, in a free site...and to be able to freely contribute without, in most cases, personal attacks on my credibility. IF I wrote something too far off the mark, then I would expect some flack, and would know I had to substantiate what I said.

It is that simple.

Hey skyfloating ..



Could you point out two or three threads that contains more than 5 minutes of research in the OP for me?

As many other threads on this forum states, there are not a single shread of evidence on this forum that backs up ie UFO's, Aliens or Planet X. Not even life on mars. No evidence at all.

A blinking dotin the sky is still not any evidence.

And as I asked in the top of this post .. two or three posts with more than 5 minutes of research ... in the paranormal "chapter" ..

Good on you skyfloating. An extremely vital thread. I actually woke up to the reality of disinfo agents in one of your threads about the possibility of ancient civilisations. I don't think I need to name any names, but needless to say, the disinfo agent in question demonstrated pretty much every trait you've identified in your OP. Imparticular, I was convinced that she/he was absolutely a disinfo agent when they began personally attacking intelligent, rational participants in the thread. After a google search of that persons screenname, I discovered page after page of results linking to discussion forums where this person had done nothing more than debunk and derail. Surely no-one could get their kicks by systematically destroying discussion, unless they have an agenda.

reply to post by hildar

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You're obviously missing the point of a discussion forum. Just because a certain person doesn't believe something, does that make them exempt from having an opinion? No, of course not. If they convey their opinion in a respectful manner and ask the question "show me the proof", it is not only reasonable but to be expected. In fact, its basic common sense.

Anyone who posts a thread with a theory, event or belief and expects others to read, digest and ultimately agree with what they are saying, who doesn't want critical thinking or hard-nosed questioning applied to it, is the ignorant one. It's selfish and narrow minded, infact it's exactly what they claim to hate. They are sceptical of the sceptics. Thus by proxy, become a sceptic themselves. Ironic.



I won't even waste my time on this. If you can't see it, then what's the point? Oh wait, that's what you're saying too. But I'm not allowed to have that opinion right? One rule for one......The believers are slowly becoming a clique more aggressive than the system they claim to fight.

Star and Flag!
The OP is true, and this is the reason why i avoid, almoust stoped to open topics here!It's useless, the pseudo-skeptics...(as far as i understend this is a new "polite" word for trolls!!)
Just flood the topics and debate turns on impossible.
What makes me wonder is why ATS staff is so smart in catching hoaxers, and allow this kind of "new virus" people acting freely. Why nobody in the staff can see clarly when is a normal skeptic, and when is just a troll trying to devastate a topic!!?
The right to free speech and thinking ends when ofenses start, and when even showing proofs some ones just continue to create havoc untill the topic is closed, or trashed

[edit on 20/1/08 by Umbra Sideralis]

[edit on 20/1/08 by Umbra Sideralis]

[edit on 20/1/08 by Umbra Sideralis]

To the OP.

A better question would be, who feels that ATS can be a danger? I mean if there where some payed users to disprove stuff, then some national/secret body had to do it which has inside knowledge.

Only someone who knew that aliens are real would be interested in keeping that secret blured and pay users here to do it.

But as I see it, even if all users here on ATS would think aliens are real that wouldn't really put in danger their agenda. I think more people watch TV news than read ATS so ATS is not such a dangerous place to disclosure.

That does not mean that some inside people don't come and have a look, but to actively try and disprove stuff is a sign that they feel threatened by this forum, which I think it's not the case.

If some secret intel body wanted ATS dead they would do it pretty fast. But as I see it, ATS is doing a good work for the insiders, in the sense that were spreading awareness slowly about things. Actually they might use this forum to test reactions and disclose stuff.

In the end I think 90% of the people who you call Pseudoskeptics and Disinformants are just normal people who think their inner values are attacked when you tell them that "Well there might be aliens out there, here is the proof I have". So as a reaction, their first action is to say you are wrong in the most unscientific way. Sice they will never change their values because of a thread.

It's like saying to a Christian that there is no God, well that Christian wont try to give you scientific proof that God exist he will only say you will go to hell for saying that. He wont bother. You can't call him a Pseudoskeptic or Disinformant.

I hope you get my point. You don't need payed users, all you need is different people with different values to give you such bias answers on tabu topics. And here on ATS we have all kinds of people!