Pseudoskeptics and Disinformants on ATS

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posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 04:23 PM
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Personally the people on the board that seem to post for the single purpose of derailing a thread through making fun of other posters, or starting petty arguments and baiting posters to make them mad is not the same as someone disagreeing with you.

Balanced opinions are healthy on a thread.

Making fun and ridiculing other posters is usually a way to take the focus off of the subject being presented and if the poster is relatively new it doesn't take to much to back them off of the subject if they *feel* it is cause for ridicule.

It isn't good to confuse these two issues.




posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 04:37 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 

I agree with you. I'm fairly new to this site, but I quickly noticed that certain so-called skeptics behave in a suspicious manner. For example, if someone posts a NASA picture from Mars showing say, an apple or even a skull, instead of admitting that the object does indeed look like an apple(skull), but may be something entirely different, they will state with conviction that it is just light and shadows. OK, so it may be light and shadows, but the question is, does it not LOOK like an apple (skull)? Why refuse to admit the obvious when anyone with a normal vision can see what the object looks like? To prove what it actually is may require further photographic evidence, but that is never suggested by these skeptics. They already know what can or cannot exist on Mars (or whatever the topic) and that is their position.



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 04:42 PM
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Yep, the spooks/paid debunkers/disinfo agents, or "Vultures" as I like to call them, are definitely on here.

Great post Skyfloating, starred and flagged



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 05:49 PM
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More replies




Hey since I'm new could you u2u me those who you think are pseudo skeptics or paid dis-info agents? I promise not to harass or anything, that's not my style


Im not going to start pointing fingers. That would be unfair because you can never be sure. I dont think there are many here anyway but I do think there are some.



People demanding proof of theories? Has to be paid debunkers. Couldn't be that an internet site can attract real jerks and pseudointellectuals. Also couldn't be that some members are fed up with some of the subject matter (see: Banning of Reptilian Videos in A &U


Im certainly not talking about the reptilian threads and deflective nonsense. We all know that there are some serious and very revealing and well researched threads here that are being targeted with "cause confusion" tactics.

Quiz: How do we know there is a 9/11 conspiracy? Because there is so much confusion thrown into the mix. Its an old counter-propaganda tactic.



It is useful to remember though that this is the dawning of the age of "asymmetric warfare." When things start going inexplicably wrong it might be wise to keep that in mind. You might be at war without knowing it...


Excellent overall post. And with the dawn of cyberwarfare, viral marketing, guerilla-cyber-marketing, information-wars it is helpful to have a very close look at what one is reading.



no problem with genuine skepticism, but I do have a problem with debunking. One involves a critical and analytical look at a given situation, the other is derailing the message/situation at any cost... and if the message can't be derailed then attack the messenger.


Thats exactly how it is. I like the ATS-Term Respected Foe...emphasis on "respected". There are some foes that have a different bias than you. And thats great because you learn a lot from the other side of a discussion. But that has an entirely different feel to it than having someone who wants to destroy discussion at all costs.



How hard is it too ignore posts you don't like?


Its easy until someone starts using unfair means and attacking you personally as has happened to me on numerous ocassions. I once had a thread where five skeptics "ganged up" on me with rapid-gunfire for several pages and forced me to jump ship (give up posting). With that much heat I must of finally touched on something significant for a change.



Personally the people on the board that seem to post for the single purpose of derailing a thread through making fun of other posters, or starting petty arguments and baiting posters to make them mad is not the same as someone disagreeing with you.


Yep. The difference between a true skeptic and a pseudoskeptic.



For example, if someone posts a NASA picture from Mars showing say, an apple or even a skull, instead of admitting that the object does indeed look like an apple(skull), but may be something entirely different, they will state with conviction that it is just light and shadows. OK, so it may be light and shadows, but the question is, does it not LOOK like an apple (skull)? Why refuse to admit the obvious when anyone with a normal vision can see what the object looks like? To prove what it actually is may require further photographic evidence, but that is never suggested by these skeptics. They already know what can or cannot exist on Mars (or whatever the topic) and that is their position.


Ive especially noticed the behaviour we are talking about on the Mars threads. Thanks to the totally bizzare attacks and painfully unconvincing "debunks" I have come to believe that there really is something being covered-up on Mars. Someone posts something unusual and you´ll immediatly have five people come in and say "no its not!" without any discussion or consideration whatsoever. Suspicious behaviour there.



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 05:51 PM
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I have to admit that the longer you stay at "conspiracy sites" the more evident the truth becomes. Normally, skeptics remain skeptics for a short period of time and become believers to *some* degree. If someone has 5000 pts and continues to routinely believe the official story then alarm bells should be ringing.

I am not a government hater in any way nor do I believe that everything that happens in the world is a conspiracy. For example, I don't believe 9-11 was an american conspiracy. Most likely al-queada was responsible and I can back this up with reasonable "evidence". To refute this conspiracy one only needs to remember the london, madrid, nairobi, bali and other attacks to see who is *most likely* responsible. We even have al-queda tapes turned in to al-jazeera as proof! In short, I think 9-11 cia conspiracy is pure bollocks.

When the issue is ufos and reverse engineered craft then the story is different! There is definetly something weird going on here and the governments and mainstream media have been turning the other way for a long time. This is a real conspiracy as far as I am concerned and probably the biggest!

IMO people that think everything is a conspiracy are just as sick or misinformed as those that think there is no conspiracy and everything is rosey. People are people with their inherent strengths and weaknesses.

While I don't hate governments I do think *they* will do anything to stay in power including covering up anthing that is not in their best interest or goes against their parties belief system.

Every case is different but pseudoskeptics normally just refute stubbornly without really doing any research and this happens thread after thread. When they do manage to get outside sources just so they can play devils advocate its usually a cnn mainstream site or nasa(never a straight answer)propaganda.

I once asked someone in the area 51 board(with hundreds of posts) why do you participate here if you don't believe in underground bases, ufos, reverse engineered craft, stealth planes...etc and all you do is debunk.
He said ats is not a church for the believers and anyone can participate. Ok but I think most people that don't like this stuff or think its bs would have probably quit and gone elsewhere...at least I would. Whats the point of constantly arguing with people for months if your not even going to take a look at some of the evidence presented...nevermind doing research of your own!

Best example: I don't believe in 9-11 cia conspiracy so I don't bother visiting that board. I consider it a waste of time. If I went there just to argue I would probably be labeled a debunker and rightfuly so.

[edit on 19-1-2008 by EarthCitizen07]



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 06:01 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
Replies

Vojvoda: Thats scary and sad. I ocassionally notice something like that too. It also reminds us of having a certain amount of compassion with each and every anynomous poster. Who knows what someone is going through.



Polanski: True. Theres information out there that can get you killedwithin minutes of publication. I spent a lot of time reading through the archives of ATS. Its strange how many researchers on ATS have suddenly "disappeared", never to post again. "Last Login: April 15, 2004".
Maybe some really have gotten removed, while others just lost interest.

Dizziedame: I too have started threads with enthusiasm to share something great only to have the young flowers ripped apart before they even start blooming.

But after a few years of reading here you start to see a pattern with certain posters. The pattern is:

* They dont open their own threads
* They dont participate in any threads then one topic
* Every single post of theirs ridicules or attacks the topic.

Dont believe it? The archives make for an informative read. Check peoples profiles once in awhile. Check out their patterns of posting and their patterns of interest.

Im not saying that all of them are disinformants, but most are suspicious to say the least.

interestedalways: "To kill a thread" is the right expression. Rather than offering a balanced counter-view, you notice how some posters act like they urgently, urgently want you to stop posting, stop talking, stop researching.

IvanZana: Yes, there are hundreds, if not thousands of threads like that.
What often happens though is that a reader will get discouraged of looking into it if that reader keeps reading stuff like "This has been deebunked a long time ago. Nothing to see here. Move on!" But we´ll keep on pushing for more truth and more truth yet.

Musselwhite: I wasnt aware of that thread. Good one. Maybe a dangerous one.

I've been a reader here for some years, even started a few. I have to agree with you here, if I remember correctly, the all out attacks started in earnest about two and a half years ago. I wonder how many people like myself just gave in to the ridicule and silliness of some of these disinformant's rantings after awhile.

Whithout a doubt, there are lurkers (on these forums at least) who's JOB it is to discredit postings. Even a dumb, uninformed citizen like myself can read and put 2 and 2 together.... I'm just happy to see someone finally take a stand against it on ATS, among the other forums where it probably exists.









posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 06:06 PM
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Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Best example: I don't believe in 9-11 cia conspiracy so I don't bother visiting that board. I consider it a waste of time.


You may want to reconsider that. There are all sorts of holes in the official US government story of 9/11. Loads and loads of incriminating evidence has come out.

For example, Bush has even admitted to the press that explosives were used in the twin towers to "prevent people trapped in the upper floors from escaping" ( !!!!! )

Who put those explosives there? Fanatical Muslim terrorists from Afghanistan? Somehow I doubt it!



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 06:15 PM
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Something interesting just happened on my thread "O.J. Simpson: Sacking the Truth."

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The first video that I linked to in the thread seems to have been tampered with in some way. When you try to play the video, you get the message, "This video is no longer available." We've all seen that before.

The interesting thing is that if you click on the YouTube link at the bottom of the video, you find that the video IS STILL AVAILABLE and viewable on YouTube. Is this a glitch or an example of what we are talking about in this thread?



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 06:17 PM
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I am sorry but I have to agree with OP. There is alot of people here that fit in that category. As I told one person one day so nicely if God came to his door and said come on son its time for me to take you to heaven he would most likely say "If your God prove it"


Some of these folks shouldnt even be in here there dense, and truthfully I actually stopped coming here for a long time, do to that. I have 4 other forums that I go to, 2 of which are private forums. You can only get in if you are invited. Alot of these folks there are Astronomers, Scientists ect. And i get more out of them then I do here. here when people talk about something you get the crazies that sit there saying you give us the evidence until then its a bunch of bull, when you get the evidence they have to debunk it. I just get tired of it thats why I tend to mostly read here rather then doing lots of posts.

I invited a friend here awhile ago and he joined saw how people were and left he said he would never come back. I have seen 4 others do the same.

Hilda

Is that better on the spelling? Maybe you the bot?

[edit on 19-1-2008 by hildar]



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 06:19 PM
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reply to post by ipsedixit
 


They do that to. Believe me I also have seen links to people photos being changed.

Hilda



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 06:27 PM
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I don't want to seem unduly suspicious but does anybody else notice anything peculiar about hildar's post? Keep in mind that this person registered less than one month ago. And the spell check issues. Are they bot related?

If I'm way off base I apologize.

Sorry, hildar, I just read your response to my post and now I do think you are human. I apologize. I'm having a James Jesus Angleton moment I guess.

[edit on 19-1-2008 by ipsedixit]



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 06:29 PM
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When I first saw this I thought I was the only one who was seeing through the BS that is going on. I too spent a lot of time looking at the actual material that was being attacked and why.

It seems to break down in to three groups. The first being the govt spooks and if you don't think big bucks are being dumped into the infowars, well your a goner. The second are people that are certain they have the only take on science. They gang together with other weaker 'followers that rely on both the instigator and even ATS mods who may also be spooks to take a user and threads down, in discredit and shame when they have done nothing wrong. The final group are just angry people that don't think anything should be looked at but what they post, and have no life except internet chat rooms.


So, not to point any fingers, look at the archives yourself, and decide. There are things that are pushed under the rug and users that just plain disappeared and never came back. There is no need to hunt for truth the bodies laying in the archives tell the story. Look at the locked threads. The banned users and who banned them. The people that left and never came back. Sure there are a ton of losers and wackos that are drawn to sites like this but how many? 15%? 30%?

Congrats, infowar conspiracy right on the doorstep along with the morning paper. If its not, its still fun to think so.



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 06:37 PM
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reply to post by ipsedixit
 


let me take a guess here you are a bit paranoid? No I am not a bot. I happen to have 3 children

Hilda

[edit on 19-1-2008 by hildar]



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 06:42 PM
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reply to post by hildar
 

10-4. Again, I apologize. In the margin of your post it indicates that you registered 25-12-2007. I realize that you could have been a reader for much longer than that would indicate.

It sort of illustrates the effect that agent provocateurs can have when they infiltrate a situation like this, creating an atmosphere of suspicion.

It would be nice to hear a response from the mods concerning the video glitch I referred to above though.



[edit on 19-1-2008 by ipsedixit]



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 06:46 PM
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reply to post by ipsedixit
 


Not a problem, I had to spend tons of time reading about other things, before I realized I wanted to comment on them. For 6 months I debated on did I want another forum in my list. Then finally I did sign up. I prefer hub any day over this one but I do like to read alot in here.

Hilda



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 06:57 PM
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Why does everything have to be a conspiracy? Surely, the fact that anything related to these subjects not only attract a broad range of people, from all over the world, but a majority of them are rational thinkers and after the 450th "OMG THIS PERSON ON TV IS A SHAPESHIFTING REPLITIAN" or "OMG I MUST BE SPECIAL BECAUSE I'M AN INDIGO CHILD AND NOT A TEENAGER GOING THROUGH WHAT 99% OF THE OTHER TEENAGERS IN THE WORLD ARE GOING THROUGH, NO SIREE, I'M SPECIAL", self indulgent sludge that the MTV generation think everyone has to read or if they ask a question must obviously be part of the "system".

Some of us who disagree with you (not you specifically, but "you" as in the people who blindly believe everything they read) have a right to ask for evidence of the claims or beliefs, because until there is actual evidence, what we're all reading here are stories & opinions. Is it too much to ask for facts? Is it too much to question a story? No, it's healthy. This is what I love about ATS, its run by people who want facts and evidence. (I'd like to find the quote from Springer regarding that but can't for the life me remember what thread it was in)

To suggest that just because another person feels as passionately about the topic you believe in, which they do not, must be an agent of some kind is just the typical paranoid attitude that these sorts of subjects brings.

I don't doubt that disinformation plays a major part of intelligence agencies around the world. We know it to be true. It's been documented. And I don't doubt that some of those agencies visit ATS, after all it's the largest and most respected public forum of its kind. But this isn't Hollywood, and to discredit Joe Public in a thread achieves nothing. They are not sitting outside your house in black vans and they are not tapping your phones just because you believe 911 was an inside job or that something crashed in Roswell (which FYI, the latter I do believe). Communicating to the public via networks & mass media is what serves the agenda more effectively, that form of disinformation is much more effective than calling user "VAMPIREHUNTER2000" a liar, in a thread that such a relatively small number of people are going to read in the grand scheme of things.

Don't get me wrong, I don't trust the system or the people who run it. I'm not naive and most certainly believe that if a story broke on ATS which threatened an agenda to a degree that something had to be done, that pressure would be applied behind the scenes or even publicly.

Either way, the cycle of this thread subject will continue I'm sure. And who knows, as technology becomes more ingrained on our lives, it might well actually be true.





[edit on 19-1-2008 by timb3r]



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 07:09 PM
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reply to post by timb3r
 

I definitely agree with the thrust of what you are saying. As an example, I went back to my O.J. Simpson thread, linked to above, and found that the video link I thought could have been sabotaged is now working normally. It was probably just a glitch of some kind. However, freedon demands eternal vigilance of both sabotage and glitches.



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 07:10 PM
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ok I know exactly what the OP is getting at, but i'm not sure I agree, or at least not to the extent that they believe in these 'disinformants'.

A large percentage of this board are the sort of people who have trawled through so much BS and put up with so many stupid made-up stories that they automatically demand proper proof for something now so that they don't need to waste their time with stories that are just going to turn out fake.

I mean, we get so many people showing up with some blurry photo of a tiny light and saying "oh yeah i just saw this UFO", and tbh it just gets boring.

We hardly ever see any decent clear photos of UFOs, and when we do, they are debunked within a couple of pages. And by debunked, I mean properly debunked, like someone will find the photo backdrop elsewhere on the net without the UFO in it, making it clear that someone has just added the UFO in then posted it on here. That's just an example of what happens all the time on ATS. You can't blame people for becoming more and more skeptical with each fake photo that comes up, especially when we never get any decent photos to look at.

Anyway, the point of this thread as laid out by the OP was so that people could link to threads that were clearly being sabotaged by Pseudoskeptics, so... let's see some? Everyone seems to be going on about them but no one has posted any examples. Don't worry about pointing fingers, because if you're so sure that they are paid disinformants then you shouldn't be afraid to offend them, because no one would want them here anyway.


Originally posted by Vojvoda
You should be aware, too, that there are some people mentally ill [psychosis].
And I am very serious. I have black list in paper of some nicknames to which I don’t answer any more as they apparently need psychiatric help.


Do you actually know that they are mentally ill? Or did they just have a different opinion to you so you assumed they must be a psycho? I don't get how you can make a medical analysis of someone from their posts on a conspiracy forum?



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 07:14 PM
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reply to post by timb3r
 

Ok here is a question then, if the people are tired of the 450th post about something then why not stay away instead they go in and bother the folks whom are discussing it?

For instance alot of folks believe in 2012, yet the skeptics tons of them go in and say prove it, over and over again. Yet even NASA has stated that something will happen in 2012 that may cause another ice age. Yet they want more proof. And NOAA has stated the same thing yet they want more and more. Yet here we are trying to discuss something that is real and trying to figure out how to survive it yet you have about 20 people almost yelling at you over and over again its a lie.

If they dont want to believe in it then why are they going in there? Because of what the OP is saying thats why.

Hilda



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 07:16 PM
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Originally posted by polanksi
Why is it that some threads seem to be unsubstatiated while in others 'proof' is demanded and sources questioned? Many things are not known at this time and many other theories are put forth by 'disreputable'
sources but, most significant information is not mainstream to begin with. The author of Dark Alliance, Gary? was hounded by the mainstream and government disinfo but, was spot on. There are a lot of theoretical musing on ATS that can't or won't be sourced by the so-called 'reliable' sources you know the experts, supporters of the status quo. New and soon to be acceptable info most often comes from outside the dominant paradigm.

[edit on 19-1-2008 by polanksi]
His name was Gary Webb.I like this topic,I have heard that ATS is monitored by the government so,some people wolud be disinfo agents.





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