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Holocaust Revisionists Lawyer Sentenced to 3 1/2 Years!

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posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 07:51 AM
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reply to post by Britguy
 


Excellent post.

I guess some on these forums would make the case that I am pushing an agenda. The have been a few threads that I have created that deal with the current wave of trials in Europe centred on people that question the Holocaust. People like Ernst Zundel, David Irving, Germar Rudolph, Robert Faurrisson, etc...

This is not my agenda at all. My agenda is waking people up to what I see as the death-knell of free-speech.

We have seen people going through the courts for expressing an opinion. Some are jailed, some are fined, some have their professional lives destroyed.

A Rogues Gallery
David Irving, Ernst Zundel, Germar Rudolph, Wolfgang Frohlich, Gaston-Armand Amaudruz, Siegfried Verbeke, Roeland Raes, Georges Theil, Dr. Fredrick Töben, Dariusz Ratajczak, Manfred Roeder, Roger Garaudy, Siegfried Verbeke, Adam Gmurczyk, Gabriel Andres, Hans-Christian Wendt, Carlos Porter, Manfred Junger, Eric Delacroix, Fred A. Leuchter, Jr., Otto-Ernst Remer, Gerd Honsik, and the list goes on...

In the cases of Zundel and Rudolph they were extradited out of the country that is a beacon of "Free-Speech", the United States, and sent to face certain prison terms for expressing their views.

These trials have not been a sudden thing, they have steadily been rising since the early 1980's.

This slow and insidious wave that has crested into the new millenia sees people who question the Holocaust or the state of Israel in any way are silenced.

We have seen Google remove videos by anti-Zionist Michael A. Hoffman II because as far as Google is concerned they constitute Hate Speech (My God, George Orwell would have had a field day with that term). Videos, one of whose subjects were Deborah Lipstadt and her use of the term "Amalek" when refering to David Irving.

Professor Norman Finkelstein, by all accounts a fastidious and thorough scholar was denied tenure at DePaul University for his views on what he calls "The Holocaust Industry", as well as his views concerning Zionist-fascism. Finkelstein has been barraged by calls of "Anti Semite!" Never mind the fact that the man is Jewish himself as well as being the son of Death-Camp survivors.

Last year we saw Jewish scholar Ariel Toaff, release his tome on the subject of the Blood Libel myth, "Passovers of Blood: The Jews of Europe and Ritual Murders". Toaff, a professor of Medieval and Renaissance History at Bar Ilan University and the son of Elio Toaff, a former Chief Rabbi of Rome, has also been drowned in a sea of cries of "Anti-Semite!"

Archbishop Desmond Tutu last year was left with no option but to cancel his appearance at Minnesota's University of St. Thomas because local Jewish groups were upset at comparisons he had made between the Nazi State and Israel.

And so it goes... As slowly but surely the questioning of anything Jewish is becoming verboten.

As we sit and watch the State of Israel commit genocidal acts on the Palestinian people, we are being indoctrinated into not questioning these acts and to shut up and let the Israeli's continue to commit the same atrocities that were visited upon their qwn.

Without a doubt many of those mentioned above are misguided, have their own agenda, or are just plain stupid. I don't care what hobby-horses they ride in their own time. But they should be permitted to say what they want when they want without fear of censorship in any free and democratic nation.

My God, look through any online collection of George Orwell's quotes and you will find this one:


“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

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" If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. "
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"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they don't want to hear."
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Unfortunately these "editors" have decided to clip the entire quote for fear of angering those that may find it offensive.

The full quote:


"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they don't want to hear... Is it true about the gas ovens in Poland?"




posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 07:59 AM
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reply to post by Beelzebubba
 


You would agree that the Nazis's committed genocidal atrocities of the other minorities I've mentioned consistently in this thread then?

Don't those things make the Holocaust worth reporting?

Shouldn't the fact that denying those people were gassed (in Poland by the way)/shot/starved to death be regarded as seriously misguided, sinister and - in a country dealing with the legacy of its past - criminal?





[edit on 20/0108/08 by neformore]



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 08:40 AM
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Originally posted by neformore
You would agree that the Nazis's committed genocidal atrocities of the other minorities I've mentioned consistently in this thread then?


There is no doubt in my mind that atrocities were committed and a genocidal agenda was pursued by the Nazi Regime.


Don't those things make the Holocaust worth reporting?


Of course, as a believer in Free-Speech I wouldn't have it any other way. The same, however, applies to those who wish to question and deny aspects of the Holocaust or its existence at all.


Shouldn't the fact that denying those people were gassed (in Poland by the way)/shot/starved to death be regarded as seriously misguided, sinister and - in a country dealing with the legacy of its past - criminal?


Nearly all countries have a past that they should be ashamed of. It is terrible to my mind that more Brits don't try to deal with the fact that their Empire murdered millions in their pursuit of subjugation and slavery. It is terrible to my mind that more Americans don't reflect on the horrors that their country wrought on their native population, the slaves that were worked to death on plantations, and the millions that were slaughtered in the name of "Democracy."

In the words of Shakespeare:


"If every man got what he deserved, who would escape a whipping?"


Yet the people of these countries have the freedom to question, deny, and make whatever silly and sometimes outright dangerous comments they wish to make on a whole host of topics that concern their own bloody histories. This is their fundamental right as private citizens.

The latest form of historic revisionism from Britain is the major theatric release (no less) "Amazing Grace." William Wilberforce and his humanitarian role in ending slavery. A noble and gallant man. All the while playing his role in subjugating his own people to slave to death in the factories. In his support of the "Combination Act", the"Enclosure Acts", and his role in passing laws that made it a crime of sedition to criticize King George III and government officials.


A look at how the legacy of the transatlantic slave trade is alive and kicking locally, nationally and internationally.

But organisers also hope paint a different picture to the hero-worship of William Wilberforce, the white liberal MP who is often credited with leading the abolitionist movement in Britain.

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[edit on 20/1/2008 by Beelzebubba]



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 08:53 AM
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Originally posted by Beelzebubba
Nearly all countries have a past that they should be ashamed of. It is terrible to my mind that more Brits don't try to deal with the fact that their Empire murdered millions in their pursuit of subjugation and slavery. It is terrible to my mind that more Americans don't reflect on the horrors that their country wrought on their native population, the slaves that were worked to death on plantations, and the millions that were slaughtered in the name of "Democracy."


Astute points. Yes, more should be taught on those subjects I agree. On other threads I've mentioned the RAF fire-boming of Dresden - other people would suggest the use of two nuclear weapons in Japan was a genocidal act.

What I don't see though, is people so vigourously saying in hate filled posts that those things never happened, trivialising them, or trying to revise the numbers that were killed as a result of those actions.

Why is that, I wonder?



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 09:19 AM
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reply to post by neformore
 


My Grandfather was a bombardier on a B-52 that took part in the Dresden Firestorm. He never did really forgive himself for the small role he played in the wholesale destruction that was rained down upon the innocents of that city. He rarely spoke of it and when he did it was in the context that we (the Allies) were really no better than the Nazi's.

I often reflect on my time with him as a child and the feeling he instilled in me that I wasn't being told the complete truth in school.

But I digress... I couldn't tell you why certain members are filled with hatred when it comes to the question of Israel and the Holocaust. But in this thread I see people who are mostly concerned with Freedom of Speech.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 09:39 AM
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Originally posted by benign.psychosis
So we will jail these people who question if what is told as "official history" is the truth or not?

You seriously do not see anything wrong with that?


First, I think we need to look at the fact that the country doing this is not America, and is in fact the country that committed those crimes. Now we can argue over how many died, what type of groups died, all the external/internal forces that contributed to it etc. But the one big fact is Germany was the responsible party in all this, period, for they had the physical control over the whole situation.

Second, Germany has embraced its war crimes (all of them) and truly wants to maintain the integrity of the facts as they have investigated them. Facts today are much different than facts 60 plus years ago. For back then they were in your face facts of dead bodies, suffering, massive piles of personal articles, canisters, first person views, mountain of documents etc. that really didn’t need much explanation that a very horrible event happened and that the Jewish people of Europe were in the middle of it all.

So what does a country do to preserve this? In Germany we see what levels they are willing to go, and as an American I totally disagree with Germany's methods, for freedom of speech is one of our top desires, but that doesn’t mean ever country has the same desire.



Fine... you tell me: What will happen if we "forget about it"? Are we going to try to kill all the Jewwwz again?


Was this holocaust much different than the holocaust in Cambodia? The players were different, but the scenario was the same. So we have another holocaust in the 70s that the world let happen. Maybe if the world kept these events in the forefront of their minds then future generations that are born not knowing anything about them will not repeat the same events.


benign.psychosis,

You can come to ATS and post alternate theories all you want. But what I find you lack is the understanding that by doing so people have the right to totally disagree with you anyway they feel like doing it. Your freedom to post your views does not also include the reaction you desire from the people who read them. You tackle all this with a much removed emotional state, and want others to do same, well sorry to say, but it is emotional for many, and that is their right too.

Normally, a person would make an observation and then form a theory. Next that person would develop a hypothesis based on the theory and then set out using scientific methods to prove the hypothesis statement as true. If this cannot be done then the theory and hypothesis needs to be revised and then follow the same process once again to determine the validity of the theory. If the theory cannot be proven valid then it should be discarded.

You my friend have failed to do anything but post alternate theories that anyone could dream up in five minutes, and then instead of proving its validity you do nothing but attack the validity of the posts commenting on your theory. You also do this in a way that doesn’t promote healthy dialogue while also expressing it is wrong and narrow minded not to warmly embrace every alternate theory, even yours that are presented and defended so poorly.





But.. you know, we are all a bunch of liars and racists over here on ATS who even mention the Holocaust.
We have "secret agendas" that we are just waiting for people to "uncover" because it is a "conspiracy" of ATS members, and we are "secret racists" who only hint at our "hatred of the Jew"


I do feel though as I read your posts that your motives are not to get to the truth, but to purposely develop a weak hypothesis that would generate the most argumentative replies, and then progress not to validate your hypothesis, but to only argue the points of others as they come up. I get this visual image that once you read a post you just quickly Google everything you can to discredit it using anything you can without really caring if the post is true or not.

So I can easily see how others would view your motives in all this as something other than finding the truth.


[edit on 20-1-2008 by Xtrozero]



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 09:41 AM
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Originally posted by Beelzebubba
My Grandfather was a bombardier on a B-52 that took part in the Dresden Firestorm. He never did really forgive himself for the small role he played in the wholesale destruction that was rained down upon the innocents of that city. He rarely spoke of it and when he did it was in the context that we (the Allies) were really no better than the Nazi's.


Sorry to be picky but the B-52 didn't have its first flight until 1952, was never operated by the RAF and certainly wasn't involved at Dresden.

I think you have your aircraft mixed up.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 09:45 AM
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reply to post by neformore
 


You are quite right. I am completely ignorant of aircraft. To be honest, I couldn't remember what vehicle he flew in and just went with "a big plane" that I knew of.




posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 10:02 AM
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Holocaust did happen. No doubt of it.
BUT, I am sick only about one sided story. Like only Jews were killed. Nationalsocialism viewed Slavs as inferior, too. Slavs were not only biologically inferior, but also inhabited territory that Germany needed for the superior race to expand and grow.
Nobody talks about massive killing and murdering of Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, White Russians, Serbs, Czechs and other Slavs who were killed and murdered by German war machine.
What about Roma (Gypsies)!
Why nobody talks about it?! It’s all about Jews.
Nobody speaks about genocide over Armenians in WWI executed by Ottomans!



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by neformore
Denial is something else. Denying comes after questioning. Its a refusal to accept the historical record, usually because of ignorance, out and out stubborness or racially motivated predjudices.

And it is my right, no matter what my motivation, to question, deny, refute, or in any other way express that I disagree with the accepted view of what comprises history.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by Johnmike
And it is my right, no matter what my motivation, to question, deny, refute, or in any other way express that I disagree with the accepted view of what comprises history.


Sure, but if the motivation is one of knuckle dragging Arayan supremacy and the advocation of mass murder in order to achieve it, then the person pushing forward their "right" to express such views is likely to get a rocky ride from those of us who are more civilised.

[edit on 20/0108/08 by neformore]



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by tom goose
Why are there so many people with so much to lose that deny the holocaust or at least charged or jailed for it?


I would like to put these trials down to knee-jerk liberalism, and to an extent I think that that is part of the problem. In the 70s and 80s there was a tremendous re-emergence of nationalistic racism in northern and western europe, what is and was termed neo-Nazism. This was somewhat diminished when the Berlin Wall came down, when, for a time, Europe developed a hope for the future. That hope has turned to Capitalism and an understanding that while the tyrant may change from generation to generation, human nature does not and we seem always destined to make the same mistakes.

Ernst Zundel was born in Germany in 1939, the height of Hitler’s power and popularity, he was no doubt from a family who prospered under Nazism, millions did. Wilfred von Oven, Goebbles’ assistant, when asked a few years ago to sum up life in Germany at the height of Hitler’s powers he chose one word “Paradise”. We must not forget this, we must understand this.

Let us be clear what Ernst Zundel is. He was born and raised for the first six years of his life in Nazi Germany, he probably vividly remembers the smiles on his family’s faces, and how everything seemed much worse after the Nazis. I can understand where Zundel is coming from, he has been shaped by his upbringing and the course of his life. But he is still wrong.

If it is Zundels’ intention to elevate the German people into the realization that they have been lied to and that Hitler was a good man who loved his people, he is failing. He does himself and the German people no justice by denying the holocaust. There is so much more to be told about this period of history, that would allow us to fully understand just what went wrong in Germany, but Zundel’s ‘work’ helps prevent this dialogue from developing because he immediately sets the tone of them and us. Instead of communication we get conflict. Nowhere is that more obvious than right here on ATS. Neither side are willing or even able to listen to the other. No one is learning from the mistake, it is just being repeated. It is divide and conquer.


There is a growing body of serious, academic and journalistic study re-examining the regime of the Nazis and the WW2 arena in general. Very little of this gets even a fraction of the recognition that Zundel receives. In many ways the laws that are intended to restrict the dissemination of “Holocaust Denial” seemed to have quite the opposite effect. The real hard work is marginalized and ignored, while Zundel gets pages of copy.

We have learnt so much more about the Holocaust and the other genocides committed under Nazism since the end of Communism. The history books do need rewriting and that process has already begun. These changes though are not being disseminated widely enough and it is leading to a gulf of misunderstanding.

We are still being sold a myth about Hitler and the Nazis, therefore we are still failing to understand how Hitler achieved power and how the Germans could have loved him as they so obviously did. From Zundel’s perspective, we see Hitler as a good man whom his parents probably voted for. His family probably benefited from the social reforms that Hitler put in place, who from the moment of his birth he will have been presented with his own ethnic superiority as a German. His parents would have most likely told him that the Jews were responsible for all of Germans problems and that it was so much better without them. The rest was probably not a topic for family discussion.

He, like hundreds of thousands of other children raised under Nazism believed all that he was told and felt let down by life without Nazism. It is easier for Zundel to believe that the Jews were not murdered than to believe that his parents were wrong, or to accept that Hitler could have been a good man and still been responsible for the murder of millions. Hitlerism was an ideal that went terribly wrong. The failure of the Nazis and Hitler was due, in no small part, to the ideals of Germanic ethnic supremacy. Without its systematic attacks against the Jews as part of its campaign to create ethnic unity, without its pseudo-scientific obsession with race and eugenics, Hitler’s Germany may indeed have been a great. It began with a lie that consumed it.

It was the lack of planning that necessitated the holocaust, that and a wide spread apathy towards and by the Jews themselves. New research supports more and more that the Nazis while not intending to murder the Jews, did intend expulsion and that numerous forces conspired to prevent all the Jews from being resettled safely elsewhere. Hitler himself opposed the expulsion of half and quarter jews due to its implications on the morale of the German people (ie they had non-Jewish relations who may kick up a fuss).
Don’t misunderstand me, Hitler was entirely responsible for the creation of the climate that necessitated the murder of the Jews, but that he set out from the moment he achieved power to annihilate a whole people is doubtful. Like so much of Nazism it all went very wrong and Hitler was left with promises that he couldn’t keep.

Germandom was left broken and beaten by the war, Germany’s post-war prosperity and emergence as an economic leader in the new Europe only further confused Hitler’s children. Those who had been born and raised in Hitler’s Germany, who had been subjected to Goebbels’ highly efficient propaganda machine from birth were left in a vaccumn of belief. They had been programmed and no one bothered to deprogramme them.

When Zundel emigrated to Canada at the age of 19 he came under the influence of Adrien Arcand, an old school fascist. When interred during the war due to his fervent fascism, he had a throne constructed by other prisoners and declared that when Hitler won the war, he would become the ruler of Canada. The wikipedia article on Arcand is worth reading, Arcand had a number of important financial backers throughout his career.

en.wikipedia.org...

Zundel began his publishing career writing stories about Nazi UFOs, secret technology and of secret bases in Antartica. It is probable that he is the originator of some of these myths that have now become conspiracy fodder, but it is just as likely that he was led to believe that it was true by a third party, ie Adrien Arcand. Sometimes we simply believe because we want to.

www.nizkor.org...

When you read some of the material that has been produced by Samisdat, Zundel’s publishing company, it is not all based on anti-semitism, however it is always dressed as anti-semitism. Good honest conspiracy research is taken and folded away in a denial of the holocaust. Unnecessarily so. Holocaust denial conceals the real conspiracy time and time again. It seems to me that people like Zundel are being used, that the laws against them are being used to set the agenda. While we sit and debate in endless circles about if the holocaust happened we are failing to notice all the revelations that are passing before our eyes, that have transformed the historical landscape of the second world war.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by neformore
Shouldn't the fact that denying those people were gassed (in Poland by the way)/shot/starved to death be regarded as seriously misguided, sinister and - in a country dealing with the legacy of its past - criminal?


Sinister? Yes. Misguided? For sure! But, criminal? I don't think so. To say it's criminal would entail some sort of victim or some risk for altercation and/or action. I certainly don't think holocaust deniers pose any risk to society.

There are better ways to fight this type of ignorance--debates, common sense and boycotting, just to name a few.

Can't we challenge these people intellectually, rather than just telling them to shut up and sit in cell somewhere?



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 01:37 PM
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Originally posted by Xtrozero
Maybe if the world kept these events in the forefront of their minds then future generations that are born not knowing anything about them will not repeat the same events.


Repeat the same events? So I suppose these Genocides happened because they had Holocaust Amnesia?

Mao Ze-Dong
[China 1958-61 & 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50] - 80,000,000

Hideki Tojo
[Japan, 1941-44] - 5,000,000

Pol Pot
[Cambodia, 1975-79] - 1,700,000

Kim Il Sung
[North Korea, 1948-94] 1,600,000

Menghistu
[Ethiopia, 1975-78] - 1,500,000

Yakubu Gowon
[Biafra, 1967-1970] - 1,000,000

... and about 50 other genocides that have happened after the Holocaust. So what does that tell you about murderous dictators repeating the same events? All it lets them do is develop better strategies for extermination. The German Holocaust propaganda is nothing but a bad instruction manual that tries to keep the western world in fear that if we suddenly forget.. then WHAM! we start killing entire races!
You said it yourself.

Hitler's euthanasia program was inspired by American euthanasia laws, specifically how California sterilized 60,000 American citizens in 1909, and he also had a great interest in the the American policy of Native American relocation. It still helped to inspire.

But still, a genocidal or nationalist dictator will just say, "Doh! What was I thinking! I forgot about the Holocaust... sheesh! I'm glad I just remembered!"


It's obvious that it's not about that. It's about keeping the gentile in check - similar to keeping the Infadel in check - by fostering a feeling of guilt and/or sympathy among people who had nothing whatsoever to do with any of the events, so that the artificial Zionist state can continue to exist and claim itself as being a civilized country surrounded by tribal governments and anti-semitic nations, all while it performs it's own modern day genocide on Palestine with the support of it's best friend, the US.

Gentile/Infadel/Hellbound are all disgusting religious beliefs that foster a higher than thou attitude, and it the case of the Jew it appears to be supported - or at least ignored. It's no so much ignored in the case of the Muslim though... It's laughed at in regards to the Christian... but to mention gentile means a racist agenda.

Most people are blind. There is nothing "anti-semitic" about wanting to get rid of Israel, from it's current location. If some homeless guy set up shop in your backyard and started living there, fighting with your neighbors, you'd want his ass out on two accounts - especially more if it was right in the middle of your custom built swimming pool/BBQ area - your "Holy land"


If people could learn to "live in peace" then we'd all adopt a few homeless people, wouldn't we? We can't even do that, and people think Israel can get along with everyone else.

If there was enough propaganda around, people would even start calling you "anti-homeless" or some other silly phrase. The western world has turned into nothing more that a culture of Jewish sympathizers who run to defend the views of the evil anti-semites. They come on ATS and get emotional, bickering, complaining... about how we have to remember... after all, anyone who doesn't is racist.


I'm not saying that they don't deserve sympathy for refusing to assimilate into other nations for the last 2000 years, or being stubborn enough for that long until they actually got a state created for them, or even that there has been perpetual war because of the creation of that state - in the middle of another civilization's religious holy lands. Hell, they really stuck it out, didn't they? That last move was a bad one though - it hasn't worked out well at all for the last 60 years, but the experiment goes on. They already have their nukes...

One of my friends, Clermont-Tonerre, gave a speech about the Jewish situation shortly before the Jews were exiled from France:



We must refuse everything to the Jews as a nation and accord everything to Jews as individuals. We must withdraw recognition from their judges; they should only have our judges. We must refuse legal protection to the maintenance of the so-called laws of their Judaic organization; they should not be allowed to form in the state either a political body or an order. They must be citizens individually. But, some will say to me, they do not want to be citizens. Well then! If they do not want to be citizens, they should say so, and then, we should banish them. It is repugnant to have in the state an association of non-citizens, and a nation within the nation. . . . In short, Sirs, the presumed status of every man resident in a country is to be a citizen.


Which was the basic problem for 2000 years before Israel was created. Your basic illegal alien. They usually get exiled, except for the case of Mexicans who come to the U.S, and you know everything else that goes along with that. All France wanted was "closed borders" and no "illegals" which is what every other damn country that exiled the Jews wanted.

Spain had a bunch of Illegal Jews who did not want to become citizens, so the Jews formed their own illegal political body (State government) within spain in 1300. Official "persecution" began the next year, and rightfully so. To say that is racist is like saying U.S border patrol is racist!


In the end, Zionist propaganda does not cater to the 80 other genocides that occured after the Holocaust, and the countless that occured before it.

It only caters to one, and while catering to that one Holocaust, it always caters to one race. It's own race, and it's own nationalist country that is by nature causing perpetual war in the entire region. It has spread to the rest of the world under the guise of "terrorism."

And we accept it. We'd never relocate Israel, never get rid of it and have the Jewish people actually assimilate into other nations and become citizens.

No, because we are sypathetic to the Zionist cause... and we must never forget. We have to to the point where recognizing the reason for perpetual war in the middle east is inherently anti-semitic, that the President of Iran is a racist and a crazy for wanting to move Israel, and that questioning the Holocaust gives you 3 1/2 years in jail.

Way to go, world.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by zerotime

I like to evaluate speech. Sometimes our true meaning get revealed in the way we speak. In both your sentences you seem unable to even write the word Jew without changing the word structure. Why is that? This is often done to be derogatory. ie. Sheeple, CTer, Jooos,


The site owner himself also uses terms such as "Jooos" but he even added one more "o" for extra hate.




Unfortunately, topics dealing with "the joooos" seem to attract such elements as quickly as hemp-related topics attract stoners.


You're just being silly and looking for a hate agenda that doesn't exist, with horrible speech evaluation skills that somehow extend to text on an internet message board.



Why do you not believe a holocaust cannot happen again?


Again? I take it that you are not aware of the 60 or so genocides that happened after the Holocaust, or you wouldn't have even asked that question. I think this just shows that you center all genocides on the Halocaust.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 04:34 PM
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reply to post by benign.psychosis
 


You know, for someone with no agenda, you sure do seem to hate Jewish people.

Just an observation.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by neformore
reply to post by benign.psychosis
 


You know, for someone with no agenda, you sure do seem to hate Jewish people.

Just an observation.


Have you read the thread about pseudoskeptics?

You fit the mold pretty well.

Just an observation.

edit to add:

What do you suppose the difference is between "white" people wanting a "white" state by the means of "white nationalism" and Jews wanting a Jewish state by the means of "Jewish nationalism" (Zionism)

Also, have a look at this news article from Jewishworldreview.com about Bush's proposed peace treaty...

www.jewishworldreview.com...


In Jewish State, Bush uses anti-Israel rhetoric to articulate his view of ‘peace’

After a day of zipping through Israeli checkpoints, talking with Palestinian officials and visiting the birthplace of Jesus on Thursday, President Bush bluntly called on Israel to "end ... the occupation" of the West Bank and help pave the way for creating an independent Palestinian state.


That's anti-Israel rehetoric. It is anti-semitic to suggest the creation of a Palestinian state or point out the obvious that Israel is occupying Palestine.

And then we have people like you, who label it as hatred towards the Jews.

To the shallow minds, criticizing America's government is unpatriotic and anti-american.

Just such, criticizing the Israeli Zionist government is unjewish and anti-semitic.

[edit on 20-1-2008 by benign.psychosis]



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 06:11 PM
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reply to post by neformore
 


I was speaking to my Dad today. He informed my that his father flew in a Lancaster. I looked at one on the web and to my untrained eye it was similar to a B-52 (what with the top gunner and all...).




posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 06:46 PM
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There will be no justice until Holodomor deniers, Metz-Yegern deniers, etc. are treated exactly the same as Holocaust deniers in the eyes of the law.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 07:08 PM
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Originally posted by benign.psychosis

Which was the basic problem for 2000 years before Israel was created. Your basic illegal alien. They usually get exiled, except for the case of Mexicans who come to the U.S, and you know everything else that goes along with that. All France wanted was "closed borders" and no "illegals" which is what every other damn country that exiled the Jews wanted.


So while you espouse, freedom of speech you are opposed to religious freedom? Interesting.

If you consider that some Jews settled in Europe before the Frankish/Norman rulers who expelled them, the comparison with the US is quite poor. The better comparison would be the Northern European expulsion of the Spaniards from California into Mexico.


Originally posted by benign.psychosis
Spain had a bunch of Illegal Jews who did not want to become citizens, so the Jews formed their own illegal political body (State government) within spain in 1300. Official "persecution" began the next year, and rightfully so. To say that is racist is like saying U.S border patrol is racist!



Could you please expand on this - what event of 1300/01 are you talking of? Could you please provide details of the illegal political body and the ring leader? When you say Spain, which part of Spain?

As I am sure you are aware Spain at that time had several regional rulers. Surely you have heard of Aragon, Leon, Castille, Asturia etc. Spain in 1300, at the end of 300 years of the Reconquista, was hardly a united country and at that time unconcerned with Judiasm. Perhaps you can explain what events and circumstance you are referring to and better illustrate your point?



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