The Holocaust is Overrated

reply to post by italkyoulisten


The links I posted have nothing to do with college curricula. The are for Grade 12 and below.

I have no way of challenging what YOU were taught in school, but how do I know you just didn't fall asleep during those portions of the instruction?

What state are you in? Shall we see what they teach NOW???

History is replete with examples of genocide. Are you freaking kidding me? You think they should ALL be mentioned to make the point of man's capacity for evil?

Originally posted by italkyoulisten
Please read my perception on this subject (it doesn't have anything to do with Jews, you labelers), a couple posts ago.

I have. And aside from its incoherent nature, I think you have other issues.


[edit on 18-1-2008 by loam]

I'm not trying to trivialize it. It does look civilized in comparison. Come on man do you know the history? 6 Million gassed all organized-like doesn't look civilized compared to 10-20 million (estimates) being raped, beheaded, burned, buried alive, I mean they were killed in so many horrible ways that I can't even list them all. This was due to the fact that the Japanese soldiers grew "bored" of killing civilians! They tried to make it into games and tried to make their victims suffer as much as possible! They would rape women in front of their families, and this is not like an isolated case. All this was very widespread. Ask anyone who lived through it. How can you trivialize such a MAJOR event by NOT GIVING IT'S DESERVED MENTION? I mean come on, man.

The Holocaust is NOT civilized, I'll give you that. But I am saying that it pales in comparison to the torture, rape, and suffering of the Asian citizens. I mean, they raped little girls. They would actively seek to rape virgins. They'd stuff grenades, bottles, sticks up their vaginas after they were done. They did not view other Asians as human. In the journals kept at Unit 731 all the experimental subjects were referred to as Logs. The population was often referred to as Pigs by the soldiers and there was no law against killing them, because were not considered people. Commanding officers would actually ENCOURAGE their men to kill civilians. Soldiers actually wrote about being tired from BEHEADING all day! WTF. They'd have contests to see how many heads they could collect in one day. There was widespread use of civilians as bayonet practice. And there was a HUGE amount of evidence of these crimes too, to all those who say that we talk about the Holocaust the most because it has good evidence and sources. I really don't want to get into this, as it is so unbelievably horrible. I mean, I'd rather be forced to work and then get gassed than being burned alive, or any of the assorted sadistic ways that the Japanese would kill their victims.

And I mean, I've been kind of writing against the Japanese but why am I not labeled an anti-Japanese or whatever? I'm not even talking about Jews so please. Argue with Dark Crystalline about it. He's the one bashing Jews. You're just arguing semantics and phrasings that I use. So what? I wrote it hastily. But yea, basically I just explained why I think that the Holocaust would seem civilized compared to Asia, because of the professional level it was carried out, with much planning and organization. But I guess then we'd have to go into an argument over what 'civilized' means. But come one, I think I have a valid point. What if the Japanese did make a deal with the US over something that do not know or have heard about, and that it was something big enough to attempt to cover up by shifting the focus of the masses toward the Holocaust.

ok like The Holocaust killed over 6 million people in this world.........Just think if Genocide toward the Jews never happened we could have a cure for cancer, parkinsons,or alheimerz or sone other serious issue right now.......Just like in Rawanda that killed over i think 1 million people in 100 days, right now there is genocide happening in darfur.......pretty soon history might repeat itself and it might happen to us.....Just think would you think it was overrated if it was happening right now?!? didn't think so now......Think before you say something like that

Originally posted by italkyoulisten
Interestingly enough, Iris Chang, the author of the Rape of Nanking, "committed suicide" in 2004 even though she was in the middle researching and writing two more books!

Oh my goodness. I had no idea.
She was a very talented writer, that is truly a shame.

She really did her best to bring that chapter of the war to the forefront of history. The temp across from me is from China and we were actually talking about the atrocities that happened just last week. His grandmother and father were there than and they fled to the mountains. Her feet were customarily bound at the time so she had to be carried.

During that time of course there was starvation among the Chinese people and meat was scarce but every so often there would be a time when the markets would be set up and they would all rush out to buy food. His father a boy at the time was given a simple bagel sandwich, something they could afford to get at the time from the makeshift market. While he was enjoying the food he bit down on some hard bone. When he opened the bagel the cooked meat inside also contained parts of a human finger. He knew this because of a visible fingernail which was still attached.

You can't make this stuff up folks.

- Lee

Originally posted by loam
reply to post by italkyoulisten

 

The links I posted have nothing to do with college curricula. The are for Grade 12 and below.

I have no way of challenging what YOU were taught in school, but how do I know you just didn't fall asleep during those portions of the instruction?

What state are you in? Shall we see what they teach NOW???

History is replete with examples of genocide. Are you freaking kidding me? You think they should ALL be mentioned to make the point of man's capacity for evil?

Originally posted by italkyoulisten
Please read my perception on this subject (it doesn't have anything to do with Jews, you labelers), a couple posts ago.

I have. And aside from its incoherent nature, I think you have other issues.


[edit on 18-1-2008 by loam]

I am in NC, but the state curriculum doesn't make it taught. Just like how the Emancipation Proclamation freed the blacks and gave them right to vote, but not really. I mean the civil rights movement was in the 60s man, it was like 100 years later. And come on, it's you who keeps shifting the focus of this thread on Jews and my alleged anti-semitism. I mean I have Jewish friends. I don't hate on them. All I am saying is that I think the Holocaust gets more attention than it should, and the second part of my proposal that I just wrote was that I think it may have been to cover up the events in Asia.

And I mean please, Iris Chang was probably the only person in the West who wrote on this subject legitimately. I wrote my freaking IB (International Baccalaureate) paper on the atrocities in Asia, so don't tell me there aren't sources. It was a twenty page paper and I still had more to write about. I suggest you do a little research on the other atrocities before judging the Holocaust. I mean it is huge compared to Darfur or Rwanda, but pales in comparison to the pure horror in the Eastern theater. Ask a veteran if they would rather fight a Japanese or a German. They'd say German because the Japanese operated on a whole different culture. They did not fear death, and they did not mind killing. They'd often fight down to the last man, or kill themselves on the spot if defeat was certain. Kamikaze tactics for one exemplify this. Or that they convinced 300,000 Okinawans (a minority group, not the Japanese people there) to kill themselves by distributing propaganda saying that the American soldiers would rape and kill their families and that to kill themselves was the honorable way to go. Families would jump off of cliffs en masse and the Japanese would pass out grenades for people to kill themselves (and others) with. The Japanese at that time simply did not care about the lives of non-Japanese people. And yet Iris Chang suddenly kills herself like ON THE WAY to get research materials, in her car. She was in the middle of writing two books! People rarely commit suicide while in the midst of important business, because they do not want to leave anything unfinished. All I am doing now is posing the question:

Could there have been darker forces behind Iris Chang's apparent suicide? She seemed to have so much to live for, about to change a generation's perspective on world history, and yet she suddenly decides to kill herself.

[edit on 18-1-2008 by italkyoulisten]

reply to post by italkyoulisten


I find it funny that you would trivialize one tragedy so that you could focus on another, why? We're talking about human beings, not numbers. You could easily have brought this issue to the board without mentioning the Holocaust, again, why?

Originally posted by lee anoma
The rest of what you say may have some merit, my only concern is that we are constantly beaten over the head with the Holocaust almost every year. Even in some threads here where people have questioned suspicous finiancial practices on the part of some Jewish establishments without being remotely antisemitic the responses usually ends up with someone accusing the OP of bigotry and posting off-topic pictures of Jews in concentration camps. This is very weird to me. As if the moment something is questioned we are supposed to not only feel guilty but look the other way because of the Holocaust.

I think this is well written. The mud slinging I've observed in this thread confirms to me that some people have a conditioned reaction to these issues. Which in part is due to the apparent success of the Holocaust marketing.

Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by italkyoulisten

 

I find it funny that you would trivialize one tragedy so that you could focus on another, why?

I don't think that OP meant to trivialize the tragedy of the Jewish people in the slightest. This appears to be an invention of yours.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by italkyoulisten

 

I find it funny that you would trivialize one tragedy so that you could focus on another, why?

I don't think that OP meant to trivialize the tragedy of the Jewish people in the slightest. This appears to be an invention of yours.

Then why didn't you quote the rest of my post then?

Oops, didn't fit YOUR invention, did it?

Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by italkyoulisten

 

I find it funny that you would trivialize one tragedy so that you could focus on another, why? We're talking about human beings, not numbers. You could easily have brought this issue to the board without mentioning the Holocaust, again, why?

I'm not trying to trivialize it. I'm not writing a lot on the Holocaust because everyone already knows about it. I have to describe the events in Asia because it is not considered "common knowledge". At first my question was why is the Holocaust taught so much, and then when Iris Chang was mentioned I remembered hearing about her being dead so I looked it up which then made me to question the point of why the shut out of commonly available information about the atrocities in the east? Why doesn't Iris Chang have a successor who is willing to finish what she started? I mean there was so much more to write about, it's like a historical goldmine.

I am just using the Holocaust as a comparison, because it occurred at roughly the same time. It's like comparing Pol Pot in Cambodia with the genocide in East Timor, which is rarely mentioned, because they both occurred at about the same time. But East Timor is covered up because the weapons that were used were bought directly from the US. Which makes sense as to why it is kind of left out, you know? I am merely asking why the atrocities in Asia were left out of the history books. I mean you can find books that mention it, but never to the same degree as the Holocaust. I mean EVEN IF it wasn't as horrible as the Holocaust, as some of you believe, it still deserves a good mention. I mean, it wasn't in my AP World History book guys, it's supposed to be "college level". It's akin to not talking about Ron Paul when he is in the Top 3 (He's know top 3, but I'm saying if he were and he didn't get mentioned, it would be analogous to what happened in Asia not being mentioned in the history books.

And another example of how it's drilled into our minds. Flip to the history channel. On any given day, I guarantee you there will be a program on Hitler, the Holocaust, or WWII, but mainly Hitler (my friend jokingly calls it the Hitler channel, because it seems to have programs about Hitler all the time). But I don't think I saw anything on the Asian atrocities on the History channel. Maybe they have like 1 program on it. I don't know. But it's bias, I tell you.

Originally posted by intrepid
Then why didn't you quote the rest of my post then?

Oops, didn't fit YOUR invention, did it?

You seem to be trying to deflect my point.

OK, I'll bite. The OP was about why THE Holocaust seems to occupy an exclusive place in many people's psyche, seemingly at the expense of any recollection of other comparable atrocities. You can't exclude the Holocaust from such disposition. And by the way I didn't invent anything at all. Please point me towards my "invention" if and where you find it.

Very simple answer for both of you guys:

Originally posted by italkyoulisten
The Holocaust is NOT civilized, I'll give you that. But I am saying that it pales in comparison to the torture, rape, and suffering of the Asian citizens....

Sounds like trivializing to me.

Originally posted by intrepid
We're talking about human beings, not numbers. You could easily have brought this issue to the board without mentioning the Holocaust, again, why?

[edit on 18-1-2008 by intrepid]

Originally posted by intrepid
Very simple answer for both of you guys:

Originally posted by italkyoulisten
The Holocaust is NOT civilized, I'll give you that. But I am saying that it pales in comparison to the torture, rape, and suffering of the Asian citizens....

Sounds like trivializing to me.

If you knew the history you'd agree with me.

but I have to go to class now, so bash me later ok?

[edit on 18-1-2008 by italkyoulisten]

Reply to Crakeur

it isn't jews trying to create havoc in Iraq.

They benefit from the oil profits.

The evil Israel, it should be noted, was integral in the war between the Mujhadeen and the Soviets. The Israeli's provided arms for the holy warriors. So evil, helping out the same folks who wish death upon them.

The Soviets would have been a Bigger Threat to Israel if those few mujahideens wouldn’t have brought Soviets down on horses with RPGs and Stingers on their shoulders. The Smaller Enemy was used to bring the Bigger Enemy down. Now that Smaller Enemy has become the Bigger Enemy. The only problem was that the Mujahideens didn’t know that they were used to fight someone else’s battle. And now they are labelled ‘Terrorists’.

The issue of the holocaust being more widely studied and taught than other atrocities is an atrocity in and of itself but that doesn't mean we should diminish the way we view the holocaust.

The point being Made is that it’s being OVERTAUGHT so let’s all AGREE with that.We should Reduce half of the Holocaust material At Least being taught in the school/colleges syllabus and introduce other atrocities that have taken place in history.
I am sick of hearing Jew This Jew That after WW2.Can we Please learn something New about other historical events that have taken place.

The Japanese conducted atrocities all over Asia during World War II. Not just in China and The Philippines. Basically everywhere they went around Asia.

Anyway, on topic I think I know why the Nazi Holocaust was/is given more weight in the West than the Japanese war crimes. It's quite simple. Because the Nazi crimes were conducted in the western hemisphere. Here in the eastern hemisphere, we don't really put that much weight on the Holocaust™ either, because it didn't happen here. We've got our own version, brought to you compliments of Imperial Japan.

Here's a good article that further describes what I'm talking about.

Western apathy to Japanese WWII atrocities

Last week, eight 15-year-old Singapore students at a school band leadership camp named their team ‘Hitler’ because they claimed they admired Adolf Hitler's leadership qualities. They considered him 'cool' and 'handsome' and a good leader of the German nation, even though he was evil.

Following the not-unexpected hue and cry from the Western press, they are now required by the Singapore education minister to research on what Hitler had done.

[..]

The fact of those Singaporeans' ignorance, lack of concern or apathy towards Hitler and Nazism is no different to the majority of Westerners' ignorance, lack of concern or apathy towards Japanese WWII atrocities or the provocative visits by the Japanese prime minister (PM) to the Yasukuni shrine.

[..]

From time to time, whenever the Chinese and Korean people raised Cain over such visits or Japanese rightwing attempts at historical revisionism of its army's wartime conduct in their school textbooks, Western bloggers would without fail criticise the Chinese for not letting go of the past, or for going over the top in their anger against what they see as harmless and legitimate visits to a war shrine by the Japanese PM.

Read the whole article. It's quite insightful.

Speaking of Japanese war crimes, did you know that many areas in Malaysia where they did the worst of their massacres are now considered haunted? It's true. If you were to go out at night in those places, occasionally you would hear or even see a spectral army marching past, speaking Japanese. Spooky! Gives me the goosebumps. Come to think of it, this would make a pretty good thread of it's own.

Originally posted by kangjia57
They benefit from the oil profits.

please explain how? they aren't an oil producing nation.

Originally posted by kangjia57
The Soviets would have been a Bigger Threat to Israel if those few mujahideens wouldn’t have brought Soviets down on horses with RPGs and Stingers on their shoulders. The Smaller Enemy was used to bring the Bigger Enemy down. Now that Smaller Enemy has become the Bigger Enemy. The only problem was that the Mujahideens didn’t know that they were used to fight someone else’s battle. And now they are labelled ‘Terrorists’.

Jews helping a group of people being crushed by a larger, aggressive bully. Odd given that they usually find themselves on the crushed end of that equation. My point was to show that, if we look passed our beliefs or our skin color or our backgrounds, we can get along and help eachother in times of need.

Originally posted by kangjia57

The point being Made is that it’s being OVERTAUGHT so let’s all AGREE with that.We should Reduce half of the Holocaust material At Least being taught in the school/colleges syllabus and introduce other atrocities that have taken place in history.

It isn't being overtaught. Other atrocities are not being taught enough. Don't teach less, teach more. About all of them.

Originally posted by kangjia57
I am sick of hearing Jew This Jew That after WW2.Can we Please learn something New about other historical events that have taken place.

Rather than complain about "jew this jew that" read up on the other events you think are worthy of more focus and try and get the schools in your area to teach them more, not teach something else less. teach your children about the things they don't learn in school. educate them to the other atrocities that the world is giving less attention to. Don't teach that the holocaust is not worthy of all the attention, that the plight of the jews in WWII is bad but not that bad. That projects the wrong message.

reply to post by Beachcoma


You know that is actually a very good point. I remember reading about a restaurant in India named Hitler's Cross. Not because the owners were Nazi's but because they were practically ignorant of who this man was and what he symbolized. It was allegedly done for hype. Hell even famous Indian actors showed up to the grand opening and unwittingly revealed their own sad lack of historical knowledge.

Actor Murli Sharma, who has featured in films like Apharan and Teesri Ankh, was also one of the guests present at the inauguration. When asked by a news reporter if he felt disturbed by the name of the restaurant, Mr. Sharma said: "I am not really agitated as I have not read much about the man (Hitler). However, from what I know about Hitler, I find this name rather amusing."wiki

Note: My bold.


Source: Newsvine.com

Tell me you would not have your eyes bug out if you walked around the corner to that sign as a tourist.

This of course was a major misunderstanding, however I see that these sort of things are not uncommon. Simply put, it was due to ignorance. Nothing that a little bit of education couldn't fix but nothing I personally would make the uninformed feel inferior about. I know how hard it is for some to admit that they don't know everything, so in those cases the informer needs to tread lightly while bringing someone up to date.

Then there is the other side of this coin.

My wife is from Europe and where she lived, the only thing that they learned in school about WWII was that Hitler slaughtered and oppressed THEIR people. There was NO mention of the Jews, nor the Chinese and the actions of the Allies were simply a side note. On that sort of situation I would say this was due to some sort of nationalist propaganda. As if we all need a little "holocaust" of our own to feel justified, and viewed as benevolent victims.

I personally feel that all of these events should be taught in schools but then again as you mentioned, your location could play a major part in WHAT you may learn about history and your peoples place in it. Yes those events can be used to gain what you need, provided you are very adept at manipulation.

I am sure there are many nations and particularly those that run them, that are guilty of opportunistic and self-aggrandizing historical manipulation.

- Lee

My wife is from Europe and where she lived, the only thing that they learned in school about WWII was that Hitler slaughtered and oppressed THEIR people. There was NO mention of the Jews, nor the Chinese and the actions of the Allies were simply a side note.

In response to your post,


Schools drop Holocaust lessons to avoid offence

www.timesonline.co.uk...

Teachers are dropping controversial subjects such as the Holocaust and the Crusades from history lessons because they do not want to cause offence to children from certain races or religions

Originally posted by Crakeur
It isn't being overtaught. Other atrocities are not being taught enough. Don't teach less, teach more. About all of them.

Bingo! Yes. We have a winner.

Thats exactly it.

Now if the thread had been entitled "Why don't other atrocities recieve the same attention as the holocaust?", and the OP had gone on to list them I doubt anyone would have a problem with the thread.

But it wasn't, and its STILL not being written that way, which then smacks to me of an agenda and an attempt at trivialising things.

Yes, we get the graphic descriptions like this...

I mean, they raped little girls. They would actively seek to rape virgins. They'd stuff grenades, bottles, sticks up their vaginas after they were done. They did not view other Asians as human. In the journals kept at Unit 731 all the experimental subjects were referred to as Logs.

Which is horrific, but apparently "pales into insignificance" and looks "civilised" in comparison to this...

Thousands of disabled and ill inmates were forced into two locked stables, which were doused with kerosene and set ablaze, burning alive all those inside.

And this

Once the chamber was full, the doors were screwed shut and solid pellets of Zyklon-B were dropped into the chambers through vents in the side walls, releasing a toxic gas. Those inside died within 20 minutes; the speed of death depended on how close the inmate was standing to a gas vent, according to Höß, who estimated that about one third of the victims died immediately.[124] Joann Kremer, an SS doctor who oversaw the gassings, testified that: "Shouting and screaming of the victims could be heard through the opening and it was clear that they fought for their lives."[125] When they were removed, if the chamber had been very congested, as they often were, the victims were found half-squatting, their skin colored pink with red and green spots, some foaming at the mouth or bleeding from the ears.

Both taken from here The Holocaust

Now I have to say that they are all as equally horrific, and I believe that anyone who says one looks civilised when compared to the other most definitley has an agenda to push, and a particularly crappy one at that.

Which takes me back to the question I posted to the OP.

If the Asian genocides were taught in schools in the same way as the holocaust is taught now, would you be here complaining that the 6 million
who died during the holocaust at the hands of the Nazis were not represented properly?

Originally posted by neformore
If the Asian genocides were taught in schools in the same way as the holocaust is taught now, would you be here complaining that the 6 million
who died during the holocaust at the hands of the Nazis were not represented properly?

I encourage you to read your own post, that part of it. I like the "same way" part. And I guess you really have answered your own question here...