It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

The Holocaust is Overrated

page: 6
36
<< 3  4  5    7  8  9 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 07:43 AM
link   
reply to post by LoneWeasel
 


Ok to stay on the subject yes the holocaust is focused on way more than the other genocide in the world. But I didnt lead onto anything else until other posters started questioning history. There is no hidden agenda on my part I think there is one on the governments part and Im just trying to show a reason why I think that it is overplayed. Isnt that what we are supposed to do tell us if we think it is overplayed and give a reason why to back that up?




posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 07:45 AM
link   
reply to post by Voxel
 


Very good point but be careful because you might be called an anti semite because you feel that the bus blowing up in Isreal gets more play than the genocides in Africa.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 07:46 AM
link   
Ultimately, you can say that the Holocaust has been over-hyped in comparison to other historic time periods where the same amount, or even more people were killed. You can say it is bias towards Jews because they didn't take up all of the death camp space, more like 70%-80% were Jews if not more. When I say Jews, I mean those who practiced Judaism. So their nationalities were all different, some were French, Polish, Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, etc.

But at the same time I can see how there have been other events that have killed the same number of people or killed more people than the Holocaust that do not get the same amount of .. attention as the Holocaust, due to the manner in which it was carried out, and the knowledge available to the public at the time. Let's take Stalin's Russia for an example, I saw someone mention him on this page.

Stalin had more of his own people rounded up and killed than the total number of Holocaust victims that were killed. That is a lot of freaking people folks .. I don't know the exact number, but 6 million or over is quite a few. Yet, Stalin doesn't get branded quite as evil as Hitler, and Stalin's purges of Russia don't get mentioned in public school text books either. You have to discover that tidbit yourself, outside of public school, like skipping public school and being on the internet. But thats only how I got smart .. who knows if it will work for you


So you have two things which are very similar. Millions were taken from their homes and concentrated into camps and/or killed. But since in the case of Stalin, the people were only inside Russia, where as with Hitler the people were taken from all across Europe, this makes a difference in people's minds I guess. A kill isnt a kill I guess, it has to be a kill from a foreign nation to count as being equally infamous as the next event.

But, this doesn't take away from the Holocaust at all, it just shows that there are other events in history just as bad as the Holocaust, or worse than it, but you've got to find the information on them yourself most of the time, depending on the topic. So I feel that people who think the Holocaust is overrated in this sense should express it by focusing all the attention and light that they can onto the other historical events which are just as bad or worse. So going after the Holocaust as a topic you wish to "circumsize" to an appropriate level in comparison to these other events is not the right way to go about it at all. If you want real change, change you can measure, then your efforts would be best placed on educating the masses about the events equal to / or worse than the Holocaust.

Doing this instead of belittling the Holocaust will keep quite a few people from pulling your card right off the bat. The best way is to not mention it whatsoever, and go right into how ... uhh .. *thinking* .. messed up it was of Stalin to kill so many million of his own Russian people. When you do this, don't mention the Holocaust once, not at all. Then towards the end of what you are briefly explaining you should start bringing up the Holocaust and how the event you've been talking about had killed so many more people, then you bring out all the evidence you've collected that is halfway worth reading. ou'll have made something well worth reading .. I'd buy a copy, lol



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 08:35 AM
link   
this "jew" paranoia needs to end!!
there are good and bad people in every ethnicity/ race.
leave it alone.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 08:58 AM
link   
Reply to last time here

this "jew" paranoia needs to end!!
there are good and bad people in every ethnicity/ race.
leave it alone.

this "jew" We Want To Control Everything needs to End aswel!!
there are good and bad jews in every country.
The bad jews need to Leave the World alone.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 09:14 AM
link   

Originally posted by kangjia57
The bad jews need to Leave the World alone.



wouldn't it be better to say "the bad people"?

it isn't jews trying to create havoc in Iraq. It isn't jews killing innocents in darfur. believe it or not, jews are not the only evil people in the world. One might say it is the bulk of the world's ills, for centuries, have actually come from the two other major religions. Jews never actively sought out converts. Jews never went on crusades. Jews never conquered other nations using their book as their excuse. Before you get your collective panties in a bunch, I'm not knocking any faith but, let's be honset here, the right wing bible thumping americans are causing more trouble here and abroad.

This country was supposedly founded on serparation of church and state but that is not the case. Religions, as a whole, cause far more trouble than they're worth and the world will continue to suffer as a result of people not being able to accept the fact that we are all the same, even if our beliefs are different.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 09:19 AM
link   
reply to post by Crakeur
 


I agree people take religion to serious and that, money, and borders is what causes 90% of the worlds problems. But on the comment the Jews never start the wars well mabey or mabey not but they do finance them for sure.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 09:22 AM
link   



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 09:26 AM
link   

Originally posted by mybigunit
I agree people take religion to serious and that, money, and borders is what causes 90% of the worlds problems. But on the comment the Jews never start the wars well mabey or mabey not but they do finance them for sure.


Israel has helped out in a variety of conflicts. Prior to WWII, there were jews with money and influence involved with world politics, just like there were (and still are) non-jews with money and influence using those tools to their advantage. The evil Israel, it should be noted, was integral in the war between the Mujhadeen and the Soviets. The Israeli's provided arms for the holy warriors. So evil, helping out the same folks who wish death upon them.

My point is, if you can look past one's faith, and see them as another human being, you can move forward towards an existence of peace, not hate.

The issue of the holocaust being more widely studied and taught than other atrocities is an atrocity in and of itself but that doesn't mean we should diminish the way we view the holocaust. Rather, we should teach that bad people have done bad things since the beginning of time and we should study these atrocities, learn from them and, try to teach our children love, acceptance and compassion rather than hate, anger and rejection.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 09:34 AM
link   
reply to post by Crakeur
 


Right and I was agreeing with you whole heartedly but I think there will always be stereo types and there is nothing we can do about it its human nature and cant be changed. Example if Im in an elevator and some black guy with gold teeth, dreads, and pants down to his ankles you are going to stereo type him even though he might the nicest most generous guy. I agree we shouldnt look at people by religion and we take it to serious and many have died because of it. But I think we are trying to change human nature and I dont know if it is possible.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 09:43 AM
link   

Originally posted by italkyoulisten
Why has nobody heard of what happened to Asia, and why is the Holocaust taught so early on and then reinforced throughout the years?


I have not only heard of it, I read the book "The Rape of Nanking" many years ago.

What shocked me was that one of the saviors of the Chinese from the abuse of the Japanese sadists at the time (and my God they were sadistic) was a Nazi doctor if I am correct. He even wrote the Nazi party and I believe Hitler himself to try and stop the barbarism.

What the hell?


Yea that's how bad they were. There were many pictures that made me queasy. Nevertheless you are right, I had heard nothing about this event before the book.

The rest of what you say may have some merit, my only concern is that we are constantly beaten over the head with the Holocaust almost every year. Even in some threads here where people have questioned suspicous finiancial practices on the part of some Jewish establishments without being remotely antisemitic the responses usually ends up with someone accusing the OP of bigotry and posting off-topic pictures of Jews in concentration camps. This is very weird to me. As if the moment something is questioned we are supposed to not only feel guilty but look the other way because of the Holocaust.

This seems unnecessary to me when we all accept that this evil has happened but as you say there are just as many horrors in history that go unnoticed or like the issue of the indigenous peoples, and slavery...completely brushed off with a "move on" attitude.

Your suspicions regarding 'WHY' the suffering during the Holocaust is so reinforced in society reminds me of a book written by a Jewish author called The Holocaust Industry. His own mother and father were survivors and he himself questions the apparent exploitation.


The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering is a 2000 book by Norman G. Finkelstein which argues that the U.S. Jewish establishment has created a Holocaust "industry" to exploited the memory of the Shoah to further its, and Israeli, interests,[2] and has thereby corrupted Jewish culture and the heritage of Judaism, as well as the history of the Holocaust. Finkelstein's mother and father survived the Majdanek and Auschwitz concentration camps respectively during the Holocaust.
Wiki


Finkelstein wrote:


Since the late 1960s, there has developed a kind of Holocaust industry which has made a cult of the Nazi Holocaust. And the purpose of this industry is, in my view, ethnic aggrandizement - in particular, to deflect criticism of the State of Israel and to deflect criticism of Jews generally.


Does he have a point?

- Lee



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 09:56 AM
link   

Originally posted by anti72
In germany that is against the law.


And you think this is normal in a Western Democracy?
It's like Iran in reverse.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 10:07 AM
link   
Yes I've read the replies, but they tended to all shift towards a Jewish agenda conspiracy. I mean I'm not sure about it, but I am sure that when they speak of a "Jewish agenda" they don't mean "all-Jews", they probably meant Israeli agenda. However, these days the term "Israel" is immediately associated with "all-Jews" so you can't even really question Israel's policies, especially those that may be hidden, such as Mossad tactics.

Anyway though, yes I've read the Rape of Nanking, too. It was a real good book, and Iris Chang wrote it because of the lack of knowledge and books written about the Japanese in Asia. I'm sure people might have heard of the Rape of Nanking, but I remember back when I read it and was explaining it to others, none of them had heard of the even prior, or only had heard of the name. Anyone can list of statistics about the Holocaust, but how many could give you a figure of how many millions of Asian women were brutally raped by the Japanese, some were raped so many times that they were literally raped to death. The Rape of Nanking was just a small portion of what went on in Asia. It just happened to epitomize what was going on, and it was just so horrible. Look up the experiments at Unit 731 up in Harbin, or the Sack of Manilla, or just the whole Japanese invasion and the events that occurred from 1937 to 1945.

Interestingly enough, Iris Chang, the author of the Rape of Nanking, "committed suicide" in 2004 even though she was in the middle researching and writing two more books!

"Chang suffered a nervous breakdown in August 2004, which her family, friends and doctors attributed in part to constant sleep deprivation. At the time, she was several months into research for her fourth book, about the Bataan Death March, while simultaneously promoting The Chinese in America. While on route to Harrodsburg, Kentucky, where she planned to gain access to a "time capsule" of audio recordings from servicemen, she suffered an extreme bout of depression that left her unable to leave her hotel room in Louisville. A local veteran who was assisting her research helped her check into Norton Psychiatric Hospital in Louisville, where she was diagnosed with reactive psychosis, placed on medication for three days and then released to her parents. After the release from the hospital, she continued to suffer from depression and was considered at risk for developing bipolar disorder.[11] Chang was also reportedly deeply disturbed by much of the subject matter of her research. Her work in Nanjing left her physically weak, according to one of her co-researchers.[12]

On Tuesday, November 9, 2004 at about 9 a.m., Chang was found dead in her car by a county water district employee on a rural road south of Los Gatos and west of State Route 17, in Santa Clara County. Investigators concluded that Chang had shot herself through the mouth with a revolver. At the time of her death she had been taking the medications Depakote and Risperdal to stabilize her mood.[11]" - Wikipedia on Iris Chang

There was also much controversy recently in Asia when Japan wrote off its atrocities in their textbooks, only keeping in a paragraph mention or less, and the victim countries (China, Philippines, Korea, etc) were pissed off. That didn't really get much attention here, but so here's my view right now.

Either the events were in fact so horrible that it would cause a researcher to commit suicide (which I do agree it was HORRIBLE, the Holocaust looks civilized compared to it), OR that there are much darker forces at work, perhaps some Japanese-American conspiracy, because there was no Nuremberg-esque war crimes trial in Asia. There were some very minor ones, but in the end most got off scott free. Like I mentioned before, the doctor in charge of Unit 731 (I can't remember his name now) didn't even face ANY punishment even though he experimented on and killed more people than Nazi's Angel of Death! He died of cancer in old age!



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 10:13 AM
link   
Maybe there was something hidden in the history of the Asian theater of WWII that they don't want us to know, and to do so they blow up the Holocaust so that it gains the most focus, and it just so happens that Jewish people can benefit from this as well (I know that sounds kind of bad but they do benefit). I think maybe Iris Chang in her research go too close to the truth and they had to get rid of her. I mean it's so abrupt. Most people who commit suicide plan it out and gets all of their "unfinished business" done, and yet she kills herself with a shot through the mouth in a CAR! WTF! Women are the least prone to kill themselves actively. They usually tend to take a more passive approach, such as poisoning, or taking too many sleeping pills.

But I mean, this is just my speculation. And the Japanese were known to have made deals with the US during that time, which was why the doctors who experimented on humans were granted AMNESTY! We need to look into this a bit more maybe. But I'd like to see more of your ideas.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 10:13 AM
link   

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to neformore

The points he raised have been addressed by myself and others.

I haven’t seen you answering any questions related to this thread either. The points you keep making Do Not Answer Why Holocaust is being taught without the recognition of any other ‘Horrific Events’ that took place in history.


Clearly you've not been reading then, because this post

Initial reply

Does just that. make sure you read all the post.


In addition to neformore's response, I too indicated why the Holocaust is likely emphasized in American education, here.

The problem with this thread is that its subject appears to be a moving target...

Are we discussing:

- The Holocaust is Overrated?
- Jews are evil?
- Other examples of genocide are diminished by the emphasis on the Holocaust in American education?

?????


Moreover, I still challenge the underlying premise of this thread which states that the Holocaust is taught in our education system as "the single worst event in human history."

I received NO LINKS on this matter.

So, now let me share some I quickly found on my own:

From the Department of Education and the Education Resources Information Center
Model Curriculum for Human Rights and Genocide.

Massachusetts:




New Jersey: Identifies the genocide in Darfur, the Genocide Of The Armenians, the Great Irish Famine, the Forced Famine In Ukrain, Native American, The Killing Of Cambodia...

California:




Students should understand the nature of totali-
tarian rule… and learn to recognize the importance
of… safeguards of individual rights,… the role of
the individual in mass society, … the ethical re-
sponsibility of the individual… .

During the unit on World War II, students learn of
the collaboration in 1939 of Nazi Germany with
Soviet communists to partition Poland and eventu-
ally to eliminate Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia,
while still denying freedom and independence to
Armenia and Ukraine. Students study, as one con-
sequence of World War II, the genocide committed
in Cambodia by the Pol Pot regime.

When studying the unit on the Soviet Union and
China, students examine the human consequences
of both revolutions in terms of the millions of “class
enemies” and political dissidents who were mur-
dered during and after the revolutions. …

During the unit on the “Middle East: Israel and
Syria,” studies include the problems of the dis-
placed Palestinian refugee, the recurrent use of
terrorism,… and the Holocaust as a factor in the
creation of Israel in L948.

In the unit on sub-Saharan Africa, students learn
about the enslavement of ten million Africans be-
tween the sixteenth and eighteenth centuries and
the effects on Africa of this systematic depletion by
European slave traders of young men and women.
In South Africa, the system of apartheid… system-
atically denies legal opportunity and political power
to the black majority.

Link.




Illinois:




Holocaust and Genocide Study

105 ILCS 5/27-20.3
From Ch. 122, par. 27-20.3

Every public elementary school and high school shall include in its curriculum a unit of instruction studying the events of the Nazi atrocities of 1933 to 1945. This period in world history is known as the Holocaust, during which 6,000,000 Jews and millions of non-Jews were exterminated. One of the universal lessons of the Holocaust is that national, ethic, racial, or religious hatred can overtake any nation or society, leading to calamitous consequences. To reinforce that lesson, such curriculum shall include an additional unit of instruction studying other acts of genocide across the globe. This unit shall include, but not be limited to, the Armenian Genocide, the Famine-Genocide in Ukraine, the Pontian Greek Genocide, and more recent atrocities in Cambodia, Bosnia, Rwanda, and Sudan. The studying of this material is a reaffirmation of the commitment of free peoples from all nations to never again permit the occurrence of another Holocaust and a recognition that crimes of genocide continue to be perpetrated across the globe as they have been in the past and to deter indifference to crimes against humanity and human suffering wherever they may occur.

Link.




Etcetera, Etcetera, Etcetera... I could go on...

I've satisfied myself that even the underlying premise of this thread is complete nonsense. Many examples of genocide are freely taught in our education system. It's not just about the holocaust.

As a final note, I can think of no greater example of IGNORANCE found in this thread than:



Enough said.


Next.


[edit on 18-1-2008 by loam]



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 10:16 AM
link   
reply to post by Dark Crystalline
 


Good grief.

The Jews are protecting the minority criminals in various societies so they can vote for them?

Now THAT is a bigoted antisemitic statement if I ever read one on here. You sir are very naive. Clearly you know nothing of what you speak of or you wouldn't make such an asinine statement from that vacuum you seem to live in.

The circumstances of crime and its connections to poverty are more complicated than your simplified bigoted theory that seems to assume that blacks are born car thieves, or a Native American reaches for a bottle of alcohol rather than milk. That the Jews utilize and manipulate this.

I bet you think that gypsies in Yugoslavia all dream about one day becoming musicians for Serbian weddings, and not that it's basically not much else for them to do.

Get real man.

- Lee



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 10:23 AM
link   

Originally posted by loam
As a final note, I can think of no greater example of IGNORANCE found in this thread than:



Enough said.



I'm guessing those stars come from the members who are afraid to post what they really feel. At least members like DC aren't afraid to state their beliefs. In that regard, DC gets a bit of respect from me. He might hate me for being jewish, he might hate gyspies, asians, blacks, gays etc but he certainly isn't afraid to say it or discuss it.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 10:23 AM
link   
reply to post by loam
 


Loam we did not learn about any of those other genocides mentioned in high school, other than a couple of the more famous ones, like Rwanda and such. BUT notice on that list it still left out the Japanese trying to exterminate the Asians. Yes, they were trying to do that, but just not in an organized manner like the Holocaust. Also notice how it mentions Cambodia without mentioning East Timor, which happened at about the same time. It's all biased bull#. And plus that looks like a college textbook. College is a bit more fair when it comes to subject matter, but before college our impressionable minds are taught the Holocaust again and again. I mean, do you not think it is sufficient to just teach it once and get it over with without having to reteach it year after year?

Please read my perception on this subject (it doesn't have anything to do with Jews, you labelers), a couple posts ago. It seems to hint that something may be up, as Iris Chang was pretty much the only one actively researching and writing on this subject in a scholarly and credible way.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 10:25 AM
link   

Originally posted by italkyoulisten
There was also much controversy recently in Asia when Japan wrote off its atrocities in their textbooks, only keeping in a paragraph mention or less, and the victim countries (China, Philippines, Korea, etc) were pissed off. That didn't really get much attention here, but so here's my view right now.

Either the events were in fact so horrible that it would cause a researcher to commit suicide (which I do agree it was HORRIBLE, the Holocaust looks civilized compared to it)


OK. I could have just quoted what I've highlighted in bold because it stood out to me. I've included more to give it context BUT.

Again, please...look at the phrasing. The killing of 6 million people in a callous systematic extermination by mass shootings, deliberate starvation and the use of gas chambers can never, ever look civilised in any way, shape or form, no matter what its compared to.

Now either your choice of words is very deliberate - or its lousy.

Given your post about why you chose "overrated" in the subject heading, I'm resigned to think its deliberate and, if thats the case, have to ask why you are chosing to try and trivialise the event in this manner and seem to want to deflect attention away from it?



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 10:30 AM
link   

Originally posted by lee anoma
Now THAT is a bigoted antisemitic statement if I ever read one on here. You sir are very naive.


allow me to one-up him with another one of his own gems:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

for the lazy:
"That's also a fact, that they're ruining my beloved motherland. And yes, I written that down, what you mentioned because that's also a fact. Yes, they have big noses and they have a different DNA, which is making them a lil' bit different from other races, nations (i.e. completely asymmetric body, they're starting to become bold way too young, their eyes not their best, most of them are wearing glasses, they cannot walk without shambling, they have deep eyes... not really convincing and for me, it's usually remembering for some sort of evil, but that's a personal experience, etc, etc...). But you're also proud for these properties, so I cannot see any problem here. That's also a fact. For me, it's not a problem. But if you don't like these facts, that's your problem again. "



new topics

top topics



 
36
<< 3  4  5    7  8  9 >>

log in

join