The Holocaust is Overrated

Reply to italkyoulisten

Holy crap guys what does this have to do with anti-semitism at all. All I am saying is that for some reason the Holocaust gets more attention than any other atrocity in human history even though it is certainly not the worst as some claim.

Matey I understand, but some people love Jews so much that if you post a thread about them you will be Labelled ‘Anti-Semite’. But I fail to understand that if Jews were loved soo much by the Europeans than why were they sent to Middle East when they perfectly knew that Arabs DON’T get On with Jews.

Of course there is something More to it than ‘Ohh because it’s only taught to remember the worst ever single event and it’s also linked to WW2’

How many times have we repeated ourselves that YES we KNOW that Holocaust took place and it also was a horrific event, But there are also other ‘Horrific Events’ that took place in history so why is Holocaust being over emphasized soo much in our education system??

Than you get the same reply again ‘Ohh because it’s only taught to remember the worst ever single event and its also linked to WW2’

Yes but we bloomin heck Know That but why fail to address other Horiffic Events?

Than you get the same reply again.

You probably also notice in schools we also tend to have those little ‘1 minute’ silent sessions to remember the Holocaust.
I am not saying that we shouldn’t.
But why don’t we also have a ‘1 minute’ silent session to remember the
genocide that took place in Bosnia?

Real debate is not Anti-Semitic

dAlen. Well, well, well. Don't I live here in Budapest? Well, if you're living in Hungary, what I really doubt, please tell me, what is happened on the Blaha Lujza Square (Tér in my language) last week. If you're living here, you surely know this. Please tell to everyone what is happened here. Please tell everyone what is going on here word by word. Oh, and also please tell me, why the Mayor of Budapest is started to whine again. What sort of corruption is going on and whose are behind it (Jewish party with their 1 percent, whose wants to decide the fate of my country. Rings the bell?). If you want, I can tell you what is going on here. De ha akarod, akkor elmondom neked Magyarul is. Can I help you with anything else?

Oh. And if you don't like something in my country, go back to Tel Aviv or wherever from you came. You're a guest in my country (If you really live here, what I really doubt.). So, act like that.

P.S.: I sent this reply to you directly too, just to have a chance to reply.

[edit on 18-1-2008 by Dark Crystalline]

reply to post by kangjia57


I'm sorry but this adds nothing to the thread at all other than giving you an excuse to type in bold letters and a different font.

The points he raised have been addressed by myself and others. The reply to people who have addressed them has solely been "i've been called anti-semitic".

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to italkyoulisten
Than you get the same reply again ‘Ohh because it’s only taught to remember the worst ever single event and its also linked to WW2’

Kangjia, I've enjoyed debating this issue with you. I think you have an extremely valid point regarding the marginalising of other atrocities, and the imbalance relative to coverage of the holocaust.

I repeat the point I made near the beginning of the thread, because I think it is distinct from your own somewhat simplistic summary.

Holocaust memory is an extremely practical topic for school education, because there is a huge amount of source material from the incident available that can be understood at a quite basic level. I don't argue with those that say "but there is a substantial amount of source material regarding the Russian front in WWII, in which millions died". There may in fact be more statistical information from which we can learn about the actual numbers killed.

But what there doesn't seem to be is emotive, "humanized" documentation like Anne Frank's diary - a schoolgirl herself, importantly - that there is for the holocaust. And even if there is - there cannot be many texts that have been read by as many people across the globe. It's really not hard to see why that sort of material is regarded as appropriate for study by school children. On a very simple level, you give a 15 year old a schoolgirl's diary of life and death under Nazi occupation, or a list of figures and statistics from the Russian scorched earth policy on the Eastern Front - which one would you expect to get the 15 year old interested in history?

I wonder (and I've really no idea) what proportion of senior level research papers at University are done on holocaust-related subjects, as opposed to any other topic of history? Surely that's where one would really see any unfair weight demonstrated?

Yes but we bloomin heck Know That but why fail to address other Horiffic Events?

Than you get the same reply again.

I don't think this question is being ignored, at least not in my posts. I agree not enough weight is given to other atrocities. I don't see that reducing the amount of study of the holocaust would help address that fact. I think at schooling age the important thing is to engage the adolescent mind. The fact is that at 15 I was more interested in the topic of world war 2 and the holocaust because there was more to "capture my imagination" (I hate that phrase) in the source material I was studying than there was in other topics. I studied the Chinese cultural revolution as a teenager - it had all the necessary components - slaughter, prejudice, idiocy and suffering - but half the interest, because I couldn't engage, sadly, with the source material from the time. Partly because there's relatively little of it, I suppose. Now my interests have changed. And of course I regret not concentrating more in history class...

Other things that interested me at school were the famine in Ethiopia because of Bob Geldof and comic relief. No one did Live Aid or told any jokes for for Cambodia....

You probably also notice in schools we also tend to have those little ‘1 minute’ silent sessions to remember the Holocaust.
I am not saying that we shouldn’t.
But why don’t we also have a ‘1 minute’ silent session to remember the
genocide that took place in Bosnia?

I'll end on a minor quibble - but my suspicion is that this particular phenomenon is dependent on the school you went to, not any national policy. Certainly not in the UK, anyway - we had rememberance services for soldiers killed in conflict, with the emphasis on the two world wars. But nothing specific to the Holocaust.

LW

Reply to neformore

The points he raised have been addressed by myself and others.

I haven’t seen you answering any questions related to this thread either. The points you keep making Do Not Answer Why Holocaust is being taught without the recognition of any other ‘Horrific Events’ that took place in history.

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to Crakeur

When one group of people systematically kills another for no reason, other than being different, it is inhuman. black, white, jew, muslim etc, it's wrong. to try and downplay any one of these atrocities is only opening to door for acceptance to these things and once that door is open, another atrocity can occur.

Yeh but whats so Special about Holocaust? Why is it taught soo much without the recognition of other horrific atrocities that have taken place in history?
Is Jew blood more special than black,white,muslim Etc…

It is special because it is premeditated and focused on a group that is labeled as "evil" or "lower". We recognize or label that as extra extra evil, because we officially maintain that people are basically equal.
Millions are killed because they just were there where the action was.

If we just learn at schools that if nobody would pick up a gun, there would be no more war, and that military industrial complex would be powerless.
Just refuse to pick up arms. It is the ape method.

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to neformore

The points he raised have been addressed by myself and others.

I haven’t seen you answering any questions related to this thread either. The points you keep making Do Not Answer Why Holocaust is being taught without the recognition of any other ‘Horrific Events’ that took place in history.

Clearly you've not been reading then, because this post

Initial reply

Does just that. make sure you read all the post.

Reply to LoneWeasel

which one would you expect to get the 15 year old interested in history?

There are more events other than the ‘Russian front in WWII’ and a as a 15 year old I would be more interested in that than ‘Holocaust-mass graves-gas chambers’. If given list of historical events in which millions died to 15 year olds, I am sure they will tend to chose what they find interesting not just constant bombarding info on Holocaust.

But what there doesn't seem to be is emotive, "humanized" documentation like Anne Frank's diary - a schoolgirl herself, importantly - that there is for the holocaust.

Tell you the truth as a 15 year old boy I would get bored reading little poetry type emotional stories.

I agree not enough weight is given to other atrocities. I don't see that reducing the amount of study of the holocaust would help address that fact.

That’s where I disagree because by minimisng abit of Holocaust material will give space to other topics.It will also make history more interesting as teenagers are taught different Events that have taken place.

Originally posted by LoneWeasel
The reason the holocaust is so much easier to teach is because there is more written about it, more evidence from the time (including until recently many survivors with first-hand testimony), and far from that information being manipulated by some sort of zionist media authority, the information is almost all completely disseminated, making individual opinion and conclusions far easier to sustain.

yes, but all that focus tends to go towards on particular group, while others were just as affected. that goes back to the original point of this thread.

I agree with the media angle. 101%

Originally posted by neformore
If the actions of the Japanese in China during WW2 was the main focus of Western history studies, and taught in the same vein as the Holocaust, would you be here complaining that it was all you heard about, and pointing out the suffering of the Jewish people in the concetration camps at the hands of Nazi Germany as a suitable alternative?

I would probably call for the inclusion of the Soviet Holocaust first only because of numbers and brutality. Though in that case, I would still argue that all genocides - including Nazi-Germany - need to be taught, examined, and discussed.

Originally posted by seagull
The difference between the various genocides and the Holocaust is this, with very few exceptions, were carried out by conquerors against the conquered. That doesn't make it right, doesn't make it forgivable, just different.

Here is a funny thing, when Stalin did the same thing it was - OK. Even to this day, Stalin is not portrayed as anything close to Hitler's level of evil by mainstream history. Popular historians view the growing pains of Soviet-Russia consuming over 20 million people as little more than an unfortunate side effect of forced modernization and political paranoia. These very historians will simultaneously maintain that the same politically-motivated genocide by the Nazi government was a tragedy that had consumed 8 oh wait, 6, no, no, make that 4 million Jews.

The ever decreasing number of deaths should also be a blatant tip-off that most of the event was manipulated for propaganda reasons. Only the people who make history books and the politicians who make it illegal to question the holocaust are sure the number is 6 million. The Holocaust supporters claim that the Nazi-Holocaust machine was so well documented that the Nazi could almost be considered fanatical about documenting their heinous acts.

If the Nazis were so careful about procedures and documented everything then why do the numbers involved in the Holocaust change almost yearly? Were the numbers just pulled out of the air to start off with? This is an honest question. If they were made up originally then why should we assume any modern estimate is also correct?

WikiAnswers: How many Jews died in the Holocaust?

If the estimates can be off by millions of people for about 50 years then maybe, just maybe, they are still off by millions. Where does that leave the holocaust? As a small part of the real tragedy that killed 50+ million people from at least two dozen different countries.

Instead of focusing on body counts and human suffering, which are a given in any War, we need to focus on the important issues that are to be learned from a study of WW1+2:

• Countries with huge amounts of debt are an inherent threat to the freedoms and liberties of all mankind.
  
• People are easily manipulated because people are stupid - not evil.
  
• Countries attempting to control foreign energy reserves with their own soldiers' lives are planning for something in the future.
  
• Never trust a government with your life.
  
• Rules imposed on you "for your own good" - aren't.
  
• When a country refers to itself as the "Homeland" it is already too late.
  

Jon

Maybe it's an American thing, but I learnt the following at school in Europe;

The rape of Nanking 1937 - 1938 (300,000 deaths), Armenian Genocide, Cromwell's massacre of Ireland, genocide in the former Yugoslavia, Soviet Union economic policies in the Ukraine, Irish famine, US treatment of Natives and British colonial methods of maintaining order.

I could go on really, but I didn't see what the OP is getting at. And what's with sudden threads attacking the holocaust all of a sudden? are we being flooded by neo-nazi's

The so called "Jewish media" covers not just the holocaust, on Holocaust day it remembers all ethnic groups who have been victims of genocide. Maybe our media is more educational in Europe and isn't closed minded

One is sicken by the thread title, which includes the word "overrated". Try telling that to those who survived the camps.

Disgusting thred

[edit on 18-1-2008 by infinite]

reply to post by infinite


No, it's not an American thing; I learned all those events as well in a small town American school just as my daughter did. I subsequently learned even more in college. Holocausts are horrific no matter the victim and I certainly don't believe that any of them should be forgotten.

The Holocaust of World War II that has the OP's knickers in a knot is the most well documented of all and by the perpetrators of it. He also fails to realize that most of the Polish people who died were in fact Jewish. The Jews, Gypsies, Gays and many many others were targeted by Hitler and his minions because the were supposedly undesireables.

I agree this thread is a bit on the sickening side.

Whos attacking the Holocaust..not this poster..mabey they teach you more about the other attrocities more in Europe than they do here in the states but the fact is the holocaust is the main focus. RuneSpider in an earlier post said "it's directly connected to the US' involvement in the war" which is not true we didnt find about the holocaust till well into the war. Its kinda the same mentality that we went to civil war to free slaves which we know is not true but that is not what they teach you in schools. I love how people throw out the anti semite bomb on anyone who has in questions in regards to the holocaust I find it hilarious myself. Once again like Ive posted before I think it gets a lot of play because the holocaust still affects our policies today and lets face it without peoples sympathy for the holocaust people wouldnt be as sympathetic to the european and american made isreali state and all the problems over the past 50 years that have come with it.

On a side note the Jews should have their own state why not the other religions do.

reply to post by mybigunit


You're wrong. The atrocities further sited are taught even as we speak in many schools right here in the US. Furthermore the US was well aware of the Holocaust before we entered into the war just not the full scope.

reply to post by mybigunit


The OP has said the Holocaust is overrated, that's not actually a friendly way to describe the deaths of millions of people. And, if you REALLY think the holocaust is linked to US policy towards Israel then you should be posting on SF not ATS.

It's a myth made up by Anti-Semites, only right-wing Zionists in Israel play the holocaust card. From the Romans to the Nazi's, Jews have been persecuted and made scapegoats. Sadly, some in the conspiracy field like to maintain this historic link and blame the Jews for everything

Linking the holocaust to US - Israeli relations isn't racist, it's just ignorance and stupidity.

It's sad too, that some ATS members fail to remember Freemasons were apart of the Nazi holocaust too...remember that when you next accuse them of taking over the world

[edit on 18-1-2008 by infinite]

reply to post by gallopinghordes


They werent well aware but there were rumors yes I agree but that is not the reason we went to war. Also yes the other attrocities are mentioned and I repeat mentioned in school. Not focused on like the holocaust. I think all of these situations are genocide I just personally think its this way because its propaganda that the government uses for its policies. We all know that our government uses propaganda ...a more recent one is the Iran issue. How Iran says they want to wipe Isreal off the map. So our government invokes the holocaust to try to get us to war with Iran which I believe has nothing to do with wipe Isreal off the map.

reply to post by infinite

And like I said in a previous post overrated was not a good word to use. Look on page 3 or 4. A better word could of been used.

Posted By Infinite
Linking the holocaust to US - Israeli relations isn't racist, it's just ignorance and stupidity

Ignorant huh? I think you need to check up on your history. So what your telling me is that the holocaust had nothing to do with the creation of the current Isreali state? Your telling me that past and current defense has nothing to do with the holocaust? How bout some Kool Aid with that French Wine

Originally posted by mybigunit
Whos attacking the Holocaust..not this poster..mabey they teach you more about the other attrocities more in Europe than they do here in the states but the fact is the holocaust is the main focus. RuneSpider in an earlier post said "it's directly connected to the US' involvement in the war" which is not true we didnt find about the holocaust till well into the war. Its kinda the same mentality that we went to civil war to free slaves which we know is not true but that is not what they teach you in schools.

I'm afraid I don't quite see your point here, though. Is it your contention that the holocaust is overtaught in schools, given that America did not find out about it until after Pearl Harbor? What's the link?

I love how people throw out the anti semite bomb on anyone who has in questions in regards to the holocaust I find it hilarious myself.

It seems to me that's a fairly extraordinary reaction to being labelled anti-semitic, but actually I don't get that from the posts I've read. Or at least the ones I've written! All I've done is question how reducing the study of the holocaust would actually improve people's perception and awareness of genocide. Which it seems to me is, or ought to be, the actual topic being debated.

Once again like Ive posted before I think it gets a lot of play because the holocaust still affects our policies today and lets face it without peoples sympathy for the holocaust people wouldnt be as sympathetic to the european and american made isreali state and all the problems over the past 50 years that have come with it.

On a side note the Jews should have their own state why not the other religions do.

I think I'd be tempted to call this off-topic - or at least a thread in its own right, and I suspect if you search the site you'll find it has been so. Perhaps you should take this question there. The question is whether or not the holocaust is overtaught in schools, not whether or not Israel should exist. It's making that leap in your posts that leads people to question the agenda behind what you say. Obviously. How "hilarious".

LW

I also feel the OP is treading on a fine line, but the question posed does have some real merit to it. While the tragedies going on today in the world receive no press, we still get instant notification about some bus blowing up in Jerusalem and Britney's new shave.

-Why are African lives not that important?
-Why are most* Muslims only discussed when it is something negative?
-Why are the Chinese and Saudis* always shown in a favorable light?
-Who is deciding who and what I care about?
-Why do the books used in the education of our children seem to reinforce the very same agenda?
-What is the common factor connecting all those information sources?
-Is it right that the "scholars" of our times are still publishing papers on how to prevent another Rwanda while the tragedy in Darfur is simultaneously ignored by the mainstream press?

These are valid questions that we are conditioned not to care about. Only crazy people think about that kind of stuff instead of their careers, music, and movies. Right?

Once you start to find out who controls the media and who owns the book publishers then you start to see a pattern. It isn't anti-semitic to point out that pattern because the answer isn't "the Jews." That is an easy out taken by someone who doesn't want to dig any further after finding a handful of Jewish names.

The conspiracy against humanity is perpetrated by a group of like-minded individuals with wealth, charisma, guile, and ruthlessness. Anyone qualified can apply for membership. That group has successfully used the very evidence of their existence (the world wars) to screen themselves from the public consciousness by perverting the history of the holocaust.

Jon