The Holocaust is Overrated

Now you come again and ask for proof of NO free speech in Germany
That you have to ask about this really tells me you have no idea about the matter and really just waffle and reply things you might have picked up ..

This simply isn't true. Name the person who got thrown in jail for researching the holocaust in Germany, and please cite the legislation that resulted in their having been imprisoned.

See my last 2 posts many people are in jail for questioning ...NOTHING more then QUESTIONING
Not that you get this but this is the actual law
§ 130 Abs. 3 StGB

This actually does make it illegal to THINK about the why and knows of the holocaust in public...YES THINKING IS ILLEGAL!
This law is equal to a religious belief where every doubt is not allowed and is made illegal

I thought you'd been studying this thread? If you actually had, you would see this topic debated over and over again already. To suggest that it's "sentimental BS" borders on the offensive (a border you've to my mind crossed several times already in any case) and doesn't take into account the clear arguments put forward earlier. If you want to engage with those arguments feel free, but stamping your e-feet and shouting "LIES LIES LIES" doesn't add a great deal to what we've already discussed.

NO my friend what borders on insanity is to put sentimental BS into research this is what stops EVERY objective research ever......
It always OHH and the poor people that dies and OHHH and no you are not allowed to look for mass graves just TRUST us they are there ..
This is what make the research IMPOSSIBLE and you stating this make you not really interested in the truth ..
Sentimental thought will STOP AND REDER USELESS any research immediately that’s why you have to be emotionally detached when researching atrocities

"Go on I dare you?" For heaven's sake. Can you provide one credible link to a single one of these "Zionist" documents? Can you provide one rational, respected historian or student of the history of the time that agrees with your view or supports the argument put forward in your video? Do you seriously expect anyone to view your version of events as balanced? What part of your argument isn't based on supposition and theorising? And please - no more dramatic monologue, lets have some real references, and some genuine evidence.

So obviously you cannot engage you brain you really expect people to think for you ... Well ok let me do it for you ..
.
How about a quick search on Google

Its not made up. What iam talking about are NEWSPAPAER articled PUBLISHED IN YOUR COUTRY ..
Try this :
www.wintersonnenwende.com...

www.jewsagainstzionism.com...

I cannot find the one i really want you to look at ..They decided BEFORE war BEFORE any so called holocaust the borders within Europe without Germany in it ..


[edit on 28-5-2008 by memyself_I]

now this will be my last and with this i answered all your quotes now please do the research and please stop repeating lies published and made LAW

I don't think any of my German friends consider their nation to be "broken forever"... but whatever floats your boat...

I am German , born there but don’t live there for a long time
nevertheless i grew up there and the guild is imbedded very very deep
you German friends obviously dont tell you the truth

You cannot hang a flag out5side it feels wrong ..
this is deeply instilled and shows the nation is sub dues and feel guilt on a massive scale any form of nation pride is almost impossible as you are labelled a Nazi
this is a FACT so please keep that in mind , your not German and I DO EXPECT you to understand ...


Last but not least ...it looks like you feel attacked by a random note from myself looking a the masses and speculating the masses are cattle ..what worng ? do you fit the shoe..

Thanks for the final insult - and thanks again for engaging so constructively with the debate. Thank heavens you got off the fence - I can only think you were sitting incredibly uncomfortably to inspire this level of frankly immature tosh.

Why u feel its an insult are you a goyim cattle ?
Its has not been directed at anyone so stop your winging PC BS a la USA
Take it as it is a statement not a personal insult ..

Now the ball is with you ...educate yourself then come back and don’t ask for all old proof if i state something which is not public knowledge and been chewed over many times I will post a link ..
I have done all the work for you NOW start thinking and connect the dots ...can you start to see the MASSIVE LIES

And please chill and keep it civil ...The truth HURTS i know
I cannot tell you how much anger and personal disbelieve I have gone through
Don’t forget I been educated in Germany
I read the books and had to study them
Just much later you realize the lies .,.
What a hard truth it is ..how we are lied to on the biggest scale possible ..
I had night when i was in tears because of the realisation made over time

So you can say what you like about me . call me a Nazi or a anti Semitist (what a lie this term is , but that’s for another thread ) facts stay and cannot be changed or altered
I WANT THE TRUTH and guess what .... i will never get it



[edit on 28-5-2008 by memyself_I]

Originally posted by memyself_I
I WANT THE TRUTH and guess what .... i will never get it

Well you won't if all you read is facist propaganda.

Judea declares war on Germany

It was the headline for an article that announced a boycott against German goods.[1]The rest of the mass media did not describe the boycott as a declaration of war

(Bold Emphasis mine)

Heres a History lesson for you.

Heres Some maths on how its possible to kill six million people

Heres A whole load of photos from Auschwitz

And finally heres the Wiki page on Holocaust Denial


[edit on 28/0508/08 by neformore]

[edit on 28/0508/08 by neformore]

reply to post by italkyoulisten


The reason the holocaust is always mentioned, was it was action by our troops that stopped this. Allies did nothing to stop rapes and murders in AIA.

Patriotism - Years of hearing how great your army was at stopping an evil man when it suited them. When it suits us to go to war again. Theres quite a few countries willing to die for the fight for oil. Somebody should start a thread discussing who was worse: Hitler or current leaders. Should present some interesting thoughts, oh if you do mention me.

Dany Barking

FASHIST PROPAGANDA ..
lol YOU ARE JOKING RIGHT ?????
LIVING IN A FASHIST COOPERATE WORLD AS WE ALL ARE ..

You seriously saying all the revisionists are Fascists ..
NO they are not even HOLOCAUST deniers all we question is certain facts in history books...because they are false and incorrect.

But in your fashist world then, is it ok to lock people away for asking or questioning ??
ANSWER THIS !!! dont just ignore it like you did all the facts i presented you up to now ..
DO YOU THINK IT S RIGHT YTO PUT PEOPLE IN JAIL FOR QUESTIONING HISTORY??

IF YOU DO YOU ARE THE FASHIST . what about free speach In my world you can say what you likie even if i dont aggree i will fight for your right to say so untill the day i die
just the mere fact you are locked away in prison for questioning tell my mind that we are right and there is indeed something not right with the known history that why they are so draconian with the law ...you think they would care if it was all bs ..
Your a fool if you cannot see this ..and you deserve my pitty

IGNORANCE is bliss i just wish I was able to run around like you with closed eyes

Fashist propaganda ?? ..LOL you are really hillarious ...if it wasnt so sad id laugh



Any of you wiki (what a lot of propaganda ) posts will not make it go away
so u might as well face it and LEARN

EDUCATE yourself and stop reading zionist propaganda ..you see it works both ways

I don’t dispute the holocaust
I dispute the history written about it afterwards
It does not add up ! NO matter what u say or post ..if you care to look you can see it doesn’t ADD UP!!!

Watch the movie as i can see you don’t like reading...
Watch onethirdoftheholocaust
AND yes i know and i dont believe all in this presentation as well BUT some things do sound odd AND it is
Years old to this day he is waiting for debunking attempts ..
Nothing is gonna reverse you brain if you cannot see the lies within
And just because it appaerently past you by like most of my deatiled posts ..I repeat ...

6 million is not the official number anymore. they had to amend it under protest but they had to ..and NO it was not published in any mainstream press GO and look it up yourself ..Google is your friend


Now ..go on post some more propaganda that says different but its TRUE and nothing is gonna change it
6 million is and always has been a lie ...



[edit on 28-5-2008 by memyself_I]

[edit on 28-5-2008 by memyself_I]

OH and thanks for the history lesson although iam sure i learned and educated myself much better then this



copy and paste because its written and public so it must be true ??
now let me do the same

Just one point as i have no desire to pick appart your abovetopsecret post

www.abovetopsecret.com...

full of lies which is also a copy in content of


www.historylearningsite.co.uk... -

If you post you `thoughts` it would be nice to mention that these are NOT your ´thougths´ but from the internet.
what have YOU done to research this besides read webpages !?
Excatly nothing ! you have not been you didnt look at it yet you state
Learn some proper history. Deny Ignorance.

Laughable ..and very poor!!!For this sole reason i will not take your post serious ..

BUT let me just show you one thing for you to ponder about

you copy an paste link states Jews were Untermenschen yet many served in the nazi machinery ??
one to look up for you General Erhard Milch



[edit on 28-5-2008 by memyself_I]

[edit on 28-5-2008 by memyself_I]

and another one ...beacuse ignorance will be denied !!!!

From your so good researched HISTORY lesson thread you wanted me to read ..
Have a look at this post

www.abovetopsecret.com...


As i pointed out before my mind sometimes is not the best at putting things in writing but this is a gentleman that can and he puts the point accross i was making earlier about the distrust and general disslike in germnay towards to ZIONISTS between the WW´s

He clealy explains better then i did....

It means of course nothig ..but it all adds to the little points your brain should be conecting and make sense of ....

Just little known PROVEN facts all just line up ...YOU do the thinking


Reason for edit :Well usually i dont say why because it s always my bad english i have to correct But this time i wrote Jews and really should be writing Zionists . I am sorry about that .So and once again I want to make sure people understand JEWS does not eqaul ZIONISTS . A bit like MOSLIMS are NOT TERRORISTS


[edit on 28-5-2008 by memyself_I]

[edit on 28-5-2008 by memyself_I]

reply to post by italkyoulisten


I don't believe you have any of your facts straight. It was six million Jews who were exterminated, as well as five million "other" non-desireables, being that it was Hitler's view of them being non-desireables, not Mine.

The Holocaust was the worst event in history, because it was genocide, the attempt to eradicate an entire race of human, by a maniacal madman.

You obiviously only read the pertinent parts of the history books you liked, and didn't bother to read any actual facts. The entire world knows the truth of what Hitler did, what the Nazi's did, as well as how the world fought back and found out the depth of depravity he went to to both do it, and try to then cover it up.

You don't need spellcheck, you need factcheck.

Mymyself - thanks for going to such trouble to respond. It's hard to answer a dozen posts at once, but in any case I genuinely believe you've got the wrong end of the stick here. You are answering what you deem to be "zionist" versions of history, and what you deem to be dangerously ignorant stifling of what you believe to be the facts, with websites with what I view to be a sinister and ultimately ill-informed agenda, but very little by way of facts. I don't think it's very likely that we are going to reach agreement on this issue, do you?

But the broader point of my last post was that I felt you aren't adding anything to the debate. You aren't offering anything new here, just links to pages whose authority and historical argument I beg to question, and which indeed I and others already have questioned many many times over the preceding pages. It's my honest view that this thread has run its course - it only gets revived when someone pops up as you have done and heatedly conveys their opinion either that the holocaust never happened or that all holocaust deniers are Nazi scum. Neither of these extremes adds anything to the OP, and so I question the merit of posting such views on the thread at all. I simply don't believe that you can have read this thread thoroughly if you believe that your recent post offered anything new.

To be honest, I'm not even sure that that the rights or wrongs of holocaust denial are on topic - the OP asks if the prominence of the holocaust in history is deserved given the plethora of atrocities elsewhere. That to me is a reasonable question to be asked of the holocaust - and I defy you, incidentally, to find me a single administration on the planet that would prosecute anyone for asking it.

As regards the specific point of German national sentiment (which is the only point I feel I haven't adequately expressed my opinion on in the pages that precede your ten-post rant), I feel quite strongly that your feelings of being oppressed are personal to you, not national to your country. It's ludicrous to suggest that German people can't fly their flags outside their houses. A walk down any city street in Germany during an international football tournament will show you that. I happen to live in an area with a large immigrant population, and consequent racial and cultural tensions are sadly prominent. So much so that I would probably feel sporting the national flag of my country would be insensitive, and mildly provocative. But it doesn't keep me awake at night, and I would contend that it doesn't represent a sense of national suppression, simply sensible conduct in pursuit of domestic harmony.

The vast majority of German people commemorate the holocaust sensibly - by which I mean with respect but without the guilt you suggest is thrust upon them by this enigmatic, "zionist" enemy you contend to be suppressing the German nation. 30,000 Jewish people live in Berlin, but German people do not bow their heads in guilty reverence every time a Jewish person walks by.

As I've said, I feel I and others who share my views have answered all the points you make, and all the arguments (if you can call them that) you make, in earlier posts in the thread. I would leave you with one point concerning one of the biggest problems I have with revisionist theories surrounding the holocaust. That is the amount of supposition that goes into their creation.

Perceived inaccuracies in the chaotic history of the holocaust are taken as evidence of conspiracy, when in fact all they are evidence of is chaos - chaos caused by the displacement, theft of identity and of course mass slaughter of one race by a regime that sought not to record Jewish history but to extinguish it. The tragedy of the holocaust is that it succeeded to such an unimaginable degree - it is indeed part of the true raw horror of holocaust memory that so little trace is left of those who were its victims.

Memyself_I - I have no problem with you stating your views. It's simply my view that they are wrong, ill-informed and actually a little outdated. That's all.

Thanks for your (many) posts....

LW

Originally posted by memyself_I
If you post you `thoughts` it would be nice to mention that these are NOT your ´thougths´ but from the internet.
what have YOU done to research this besides read webpages !?

My writing, which is all my own work based on what I know from 20 years of research and am aware of historically, contains 1,453 words and covers from when Hitler came into power in 1933 through to the liberation of the camps in 1945, and took me a considerable period of time to write.

The History Learning Site page, to which you link, contains 828 words and most certainly does not go into as much detail as my piece.

Now I can see that you seem to have a problem with documented historical fact, but the simple truth is that if two people are describing the same historical events, then they will say essentially the same thing.

If you want to accuse me of plagerism - and it seems that you do - then I suggest you step back a little and actually learn some real, documented history, because you will find the same story being told, time and time again, in much the same way, by an awful lot of people.

Theres a reason for that. Its because there is clear, documented and concise evidence of the things being talked about. Its because the Nazi's themselves kept records of what they did in the camps. Its because there is photographic , witness and survivor testimony.

Whether you have the capacity to accept that or not is, simply, your problem.

Originally posted by memyself_I
and another one ...beacuse ignorance will be denied !!!!

From your so good researched HISTORY lesson thread you wanted me to read ..
Have a look at this post

www.abovetopsecret.com...

As i pointed out before my mind sometimes is not the best at putting things in writing but this is a gentleman that can and he puts the point accross i was making earlier about the distrust and general disslike in germnay towards to ZIONISTS between the WW´s

He clealy explains better then i did....

He explains something clearly, but his version of events is no more precise than Neformore's. The truth lies somewhere in between and then much needs to be added besides. Theses events fill libraries and cannot be summarised for a post.

Zionism is not the whole answer, very far from it. Zionist bankers did not create Hitler, some bankers did, some may have had Zionist sympathies but most didn't, they, just like most bankers saw an opportunity for profit.

Zionism is the lazy answer, the reality is far more complicated and possibly beyond the comprehension of most. There are many bad guys and sadly very few good guys in this story. I have done the research and it is a lifes work, one I am far from completing. Not only am I happy to answer any questions you may have, I am as happy to admit when I do not know the answer.

Your arrogance serves no other purpose than to highlight your own ignorance, I can safely say that most of the replies on this thread fall far short of understanding the holocaust and the causes of the war that surrounds it. The main point to remember is whether 6 million or 1 million or 10 Jews were murdered, they were innocent of any crime. Just as the slavs were, the homosexuals, the gypsies, the communists, the socialists, the students, the teachers and the priests. They committed no crime, no real crime other than to be what they were or to believe in freedom of choice. Some humans just hate other humans enough to kill them, nothing unusual or difficult to understand there.

Your response to the thread relating to Mr Allen's court case was banal at best, attention seeking at worst, I am interested in why you feel that you have all the answers. Simply telling others that they are wrong is no response, it is baiting.

my grandfather always said the world needs a war every 20 years to thin out the population.....

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
reply to post by italkyoulisten

 

I don't believe you have any of your facts straight. It was six million Jews who were exterminated, as well as five million "other" non-desireables, being that it was Hitler's view of them being non-desireables, not Mine.

The Holocaust was the worst event in history, because it was genocide, the attempt to eradicate an entire race of human, by a maniacal madman.

You obiviously only read the pertinent parts of the history books you liked, and didn't bother to read any actual facts. The entire world knows the truth of what Hitler did, what the Nazi's did, as well as how the world fought back and found out the depth of depravity he went to to both do it, and try to then cover it up.

You don't need spellcheck, you need factcheck.

My friend, Hitler was not the first person to attempt to exterminate entire peoples. Do you ever wonder why you rarely see any Native Americans around?

And what about my facts are you dissatisfied with? The 11 million deaths part? Did you even read the rest of my posts? I did mention that, except I said 12 million. The Holocaust is nowhere near the "worst event in history". That's the whole programming that we've been discussing. It is drilled into our heads at a young age and we are essentially programmed to never question it. It is a black subject. Most people are successfully programmed to never be able to view the subject objectively (i.e. you). It was bad, but it was not the worst. In my original post, I simply drew a parallel saying that at the same time something equally bad, if not worse, was happening, but scarce attention is given to it. But is that all? Is that your argument? That I said 12 million instead of 11 million?

Do you not see the obvious implications of over-emphasizing the Holocaust?

The entire world knows about Hitler because it is taught and retaught over and over and over again. It is because every day the History Channel devotes half of its airtime to Hitler and Nazis and World War II.

We are talking about free thinking and free speech. Why are we not allowed to question this particular historical event? It is very obviously not the worst event in history. Just study a little bit of history and you will see. The truth will never be known if the subject is never placed upon the spotlight of scrutiny.

And you are right to point out that the Jews only made up of approximately half of those that were killed (which, again, I had already said and used as a point, which I will reiterate). Then ask why is it that for the average person, the concept of "Holocaust" is immediately associated with the concept of "Jewish suffering"? Shouldn't it just be the concept of "human suffering"? Is it okay that that the three million Poles that were killed to be generally disregarded? Is it okay that the three million Gypsies, homosexuals, and other "undesirables" be generally disregarded? Most importantly is I am saying "general" as in "mainstream".

Congratulations for contributing absolutely nothing to this thread, nor have you set up a legitimate argument.

I believe you need spell-check and logic-check.

[edit on 29-5-2008 by italkyoulisten]

i'm a little late to the party, but why is the OP being starred? . . . he just said that the deaths of 6 million + people is overrated . . . i understand your points OP; but that's very poorly worded . . . i can't stress it enough.


[edit on 5/29/2008 by JPhish]

reply to post by JPhish


So what does my title have to do with the legitimacy of my argument, facts, and logic?

Originally posted by italkyoulisten
reply to post by JPhish

 

So what does my title have to do with the legitimacy of my argument, facts, and logic?

It certainly doesn't ADD anything to your argument or logic. Quite the opposite, in fact. I suspect that most people viewing this thread see the title, are instantly provoked, and don't bother to read the actual post. Whether one views that as a shame or not presumably depends on whether or not one supports an argument that seeks to provoke or one that seeks to reason. From your subsequent posts I am reasonably confident in your case it's the latter. So, long story short, I'd have used a different title...

LW

Nice to see you gang up ...just as outlined by many people on ats over the last few years you have become anything but open-minded on ATS
Censored, Controlled and with an Agenda ...If someone post something that not desired is it then custom to summon a bunch to crush it ??!!

The arguments are so week I SEE NONE ! Still waiting for answers I know these have no passed you but I also know these are impossible to answer ..that’s why instead I get told I am a fascist and don’t read the appropriate propaganda to show me different ..
what a brain wave there


Just good I read between the lines and am able to see the BS you people spit out ..
Still none of my questions have been answered in any of my posts instead POST LOTS SO THE POST IN QUESTION IS PAGES BACK and people might not read it ..
some replies are so pathetic child like I fail worlds to describe the thought process ...
Either its complete dumbness which I find it hard to believe, one would not be able to walk upright with an intellect as such OR indeed these people do this as a JOB

@LoneWeasel

I understand and agree we will never be on the same point ..so lets leave it at that ..

Just a few comment on your mindless dribble(feels nice don’t it beeing insulted for no reason )

As regards the specific point of German national sentiment (which is the only point I feel I haven't adequately expressed my opinion on in the pages that precede your ten-post rant), I feel quite strongly that your feelings of being oppressed are personal to you,

Ahh no why would that be? don’t put words in my mouth this is childish . I cant care less.... I think all people on this planet are equal (ly thick) ..I don’t tick this way nations and passpord and pride ..all BS to keep peole s mind busy . But I understand the feeling and public guilt felt in Germany .& u DO NOT

As I've said, I feel I and others who share my views have answered all the points you make, and all the arguments (if you can call them that) you make,

BS you as well as all the other JUMPIN on this have answered nothing ...go back I wont post it again Iam done here ..Read then see WHO ignored any points made

To the rest resorting to insults and insinuating other dumbness ...
It will come back to you my friend ..dont you worry about that

I see I am completely wasting my time here as the GANG jumped ONTO my posts but ignored it and replied BS I hear every day ..without any sound reasoning or answering and concerns and question i put before you ..Instead bury my post with MANY MANY replies ..I wonder who had to call in who ..

Now a word to the forum moderator ..LOL what a misused word

Check ATS you don’t moderate you control... That’s a difference
You can fool many people most of the time but you cant fool all the people all the time ..

@NEFORMORE

My writing, which is all my own work based on what I know from 20 years of research and am aware of historically, contains 1,453 words and covers from when Hitler came into power in 1933 through to the liberation of the camps in 1945, and took me a considerable period of time to write.

DID IT !LOL U do know how to use a word counter .

@KilgoreTrout

Your arrogance serves no other purpose than to highlight your own ignorance, I can safely say that most of the replies on this thread fall far short of understanding the holocaust and the causes of the war that surrounds it.

LOL you just make me laugh nothing else
Calling me ARROGANT ..and in the same sentence ...only YOU understand no sorry comprehend the full story of WWII
You are so pathetic I just ignore you ..LOL at least it made me chuckle.

EDUCATED FOOL ---- l

[edit on 30-5-2008 by memyself_I]

@JPhish

he just said that the deaths of 6 million + people is overrated

BECAUSE ITS A LIE AND IF YOU CARE TO LOOK IT UP IT HAS BEEN REDUCED OFFICIALLY !! nOT CORRETCLY OF COURSE BUT THEY HAD TO ADMINT SOME THINGS DONT ADD UP AND REDUCED CERTAIN APPARENT DEAD NUMBERS ...

GOOGLE IT !!!!!


BUT ALL MY QUESTION ARE BURRIED A PAGE OR 2 BACK
So go and read it !

Overrated here should read LIE and that’s what it is ...

a big fat lie!!!

and although proven in parts NONE of the books are amended


[edit on 30-5-2008 by memyself_I]

Originally posted by memyself_I
@JPhish

he just said that the deaths of 6 million + people is overrated

BECAUSE ITS A LIE AND IF YOU CARE TO LOOK IT UP IT HAS BEEN REDUCED OFFICIALLY !! nOT CORRETCLY OF COURSE BUT THEY HAD TO ADMINT SOME THINGS DONT ADD UP AND REDUCED CERTAIN APPARENT DEAD NUMBERS ...

GOOGLE IT !!!!!


BUT ALL MY QUESTION ARE BURRIED A PAGE OR 2 BACK
So go and read it !

Overrated here should read LIE and that’s what it is ...

a big fat lie!!!

and although proven in parts NONE of the books are amended


[edit on 30-5-2008 by memyself_I]

Did you take a wrong turn while looking for Stormfront?

Really, I suggest you check them out. It may be more your speed.

Sorry, I'd counter your 'argument', but I really have little time for people who are not only blind to historical evidence, but also apparently have no problem in helping advance fascist conspiracy theories.

[edit on 30-5-2008 by Rogue Element]

OHH you poor fool..
I pity u indeed ..
READ 1st then RESEARCH then come back ...Dont just answer with you mindless dribble which in any way is not your thoguhts
but out of your schoolbook ..

DID u actiually look at my posts !!

Go on read them and then answer ...

I HATE fascism !!!!!!!!


that is why i want the past to be represented as it happened ...IN OUR HISTORY BOOKS!


Fachist !?
That BTW is the world you live in ..Can you not see it ..?
No you cannot because you dont know what it is ...

THIS (here and NOW ) is a GLOBAL fascist Cooperate world ..
So people like you running around with a bag over their heads really deserve this world
why are you opinionated when it s obvious to any normal free thinking human that something is not right with this story in history ?

and you and your children are taught the history as they tell you to ensure in todays cooperate fachist world you are kept blind to see that NAZIS didnt loose the war they merly moved operations to the cooperate world and the USA
YES the US ! No1 fachist cooperate police state .

Of course noone recongnizes Fachism anymore ..when you have fools like you populating the planet ..


plz EDUCATE YOURSELF AND SEE THE LIES


AND NO i dont like HITLER on bit !!! He was a bas&%$& !!!
and he would have killed me immediatly because i think outside the box
You on the other hand adhere to the status que and he would have been happy with you on his side ..


..I stare in disbelieve at the average stupidity of human kind




[edit on 30-5-2008 by memyself_I]