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The Holocaust is Overrated

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posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 03:03 PM
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Reply to .juice1 25

Omg, i know this is a shot in the dark, but is your name Justin? I ask this because in 2002, i was attending a class at Annapolis High school in Dearborn Heights Michigan. I sat next to this kid who loved to debate about everything, and my friend, Justin, use to know how to push his buttons. Justin started an argument about how the holocaust was overrated, and this kid who loved to debate started this huge argument about it, but could not prove Justin wrong. My friend, soon after, ended up moving to Florida and i eventually lost touch with him. If you happen to be him, please reply.

Aww same ol Justin…..




posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 03:06 PM
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In my opinion the Holocaust is underrated. For some reason everyone knows about the "six million Jews" but not about the other ten million people put to death in the camps or by the secret police. Of course this does not include the other tens of millions who died as a result of the war the Nazis started.

My heart goes out to the Jews who suffered. It was truly terrible and they were certainly the focus of Hitler's wrath. But for some reason all the other equally precious lives get swept under the rug while only one group is given the spotlight of sympathy. It doesn't seem right.

And what about the Russian "holocaust," the Armenian "holocaust," and all the "holocausts" in the Far East? It's unfortunate that these other atrocities are rarely given any real amount of attention.

[edit on 1/21/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 04:44 PM
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Yes, there are tons of books on what happened in Asia. That further disproves the statement that the Holocaust is accented in our history classes because it has tons of sources and such.

But back to the subject of Iris Chang. You may not have heard of her, but she was the one who originally piqued the public interest in the Asian atrocities and wrote one of the first books on the subject (in English), and was definitely the first book on the subject to become quasi-popular (sold about half a million copies).

I was reading about her death, and it seems not to add up. She was researching something big about the Bataan death march and was obviously very excited:



Getting ready for the trip [to Kentucky in hopes of gaining access to audiotapes sealed within a Bataan-era tank], Iris went into overdrive. "In the past, when Iris was working on something, she might work for 48 hours straight and then she would crash for 20 hours, and then she'd be back up, working again," Brett said. "But this time, I had assumed she was sleeping all day after working all night. But it turned out she wasn't sleeping during the day either. She was trying to be a top-notch mother and she was also trying to prepare for her trip."

...

Smith had been Iris' liaison in Wisconsin; another Proviso High teacher was to be her guide in Kentucky. But just before Iris left for Kentucky -- the last week of July 2004 -- a family emergency forced the teacher to cancel. Iris would be working solo. Her parents saw her off that morning. "She was very tired," her mother said. "She should not have gone."

By the time her plane landed in Louisville, she was overwhelmed by exhaustion and anxiety. She got from the airport to the hotel, but that was all she could do. Iris collapsed in bed. Soon she managed to call her mother.

"I knew Iris was not right," her mother said. "She couldn't eat or drink. She was very depressed." She asked if Iris had any friends there she could call for help. One of the veterans -- a colonel she had planned to meet in Louisville -- came to the hotel. Smith said the colonel spent only a short time with her. "She was afraid of him when he showed up," Smith said. "But he spoke to her mother on the phone and told Iris, 'Your mom is on the phone, so it's OK.' "

That afternoon, she checked herself in to Norton Psychiatric Hospital in Louisville, with help from the colonel. Through a third party, the colonel declined to be interviewed.

"First they gave her an antipsychotic, to stabilize her," her mother said. "For three days they gave her medication, the first time in her life." (The family would not name specific drugs.)


source

The problem is that it doesn't add up. Something happened between her departure and her arrival to Kentucky. It seems that she would be used to being overworked, as she would work for days straight anyway during her previous bouts of research. She ended up killing herself with an antique pistol that she bought the day previous. However, those working at the sports store where she bought her gun from said that she came frequently, as she was a collector of antique guns. Then she seemed afraid of the person she was supposed to interview. Then, she checks herself into a psychiatric hospital and is given drugs which are undisclosed.

She showed no telltale signs of suicide. Besides her "depression", which came suddenly, as her parents reportedly said that she had never had trouble with depression before, though she has had ups and downs. She was in the middle of an unfinished work! People who have a sense of purpose usually do not commit suicide. Interestingly enough, she left a pretty cryptic suicide note:

In next post

[edit on 21-1-2008 by italkyoulisten]



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 04:49 PM
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Then she wrote a suicide note -- addressed to her parents, Brett and her brother -- followed by a lengthy revision. The first draft said: "When you believe you have a future, you think in terms of generations and years. When you do not, you live not just by the day -- but by the minute. It is far better that you remember me as I was -- in my heyday as a best-selling author -- than the wild-eyed wreck who returned from Louisville . . . . Each breath is becoming difficult for me to take -- the anxiety can be compared to drowning in an open sea. I know that my actions will transfer some of this pain to others, indeed those who love me the most. Please forgive me. Forgive me because I cannot forgive myself."

In the final version, she added: "There are aspects of my experience in Louisville that I will never understand. Deep down I suspect that you may have more answers about this than I do. I can never shake my belief that I was being recruited, and later persecuted, by forces more powerful than I could have imagined. Whether it was the CIA or some other organization I will never know. As long as I am alive, these forces will never stop hounding me. . .

"Days before I left for Louisville I had a deep foreboding about my safety. I sensed suddenly threats to my own life: an eerie feeling that I was being followed in the streets, the white van parked outside my house, damaged mail arriving at my P.O. Box. I believe my detention at Norton Hospital was the government's attempt to discredit me.

"I had considered running away, but I will never be able to escape from myself and my thoughts. I am doing this because I am too weak to withstand the years of pain and agony a.."


This suggested that she committed suicide not because of depression, but out of fear. Immediately after she died, rumors arose that it was proof that her books were based on fake information!! Conspiracy? It said earlier in the article (sorry it seemed not to post right, I'll post it again), that she had "checked herself in" to the psychiatric hospital, but then she described it as "my detention"! That does not sound like she checked into there on her own free will.

link to source

I think she might have been onto something big, because she obviously seemed to think so. It would be something important enough that the government would deem it necessary to interfere with. She is an intelligent individual and this trait is probably the most obvious. It is obvious in the way she writes. It is obvious in her accomplishments. So what would make her believe that the CIA, which, by the way is an American agency, would be after her (as apposed to some Japanese agency who didn't want her exposing their past)?

Note: the source is just a pretty detailed, while not too long summation of events leading up to her death as well as a short summary of her life. I am just pointing out the things that don't add up (this article can be regarded as the "official story", while it does probe a little. All in all, the article does not really ask any questions, but provides the facts.)

edit:
To the person that asked if I am Justin: No, but I did provoke this kid in my class like a couple years ago all the time, haha. He would get into really heated debates about physics and math related stuff, so I'd purposefully state something that is quasi-true about physics in a truthful tone to provoke him, and then watch him get really pissed off as I defend my position. But this is not the case of this thread. I only did that to him because he was annoying as hell and would always debate about everything.

[edit on 21-1-2008 by italkyoulisten]



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 05:29 PM
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The reason why Iris Chang is so important is because she was the only one actively digging deeper into this subject. She opened the world's eye to a small part of it, but she never succeeded in prying that eye completely open, and she never will. And her story has been successfully buried.



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 05:43 PM
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reply to post by italkyoulisten
 

The holocaust I BELIEVE symbolised the start of extermination of peoples which are considered to be worshipers of god. Furthermore it was a sort of revenge executed by Hitler for the murder of the Lord Jesus. And somewhat signifies his return, the sad thing is I don't believe he'll be back until the dawn of the new age. The JApenese indeed were more sadistic but aimed their atrocities toward the whole of the globe and were just crazy plain and simple like serial killers or people who enjoyed suffering. Not a systematic removal of god's "chosen" race, which is more threatning because it showed the intent to kill based on sets of beliefs. Crazy people are easy to battle, SMART PEOPLE KILLING FOR A PURPOSE ARE FAR MORE DANGEROUS, and is underated when compared to mindless killings by the ignorant and disinfranchised



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 05:48 PM
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Boy oh boy, I tell ya...

Iran must be getting awful boring if Ahmadinijead has started posting here on ATS. Honestly, I am all for free speech and freedom of expression, but seriously, I'm not even Jewish and the title of this thread makes me angry.

Is anti-semitism allowed here?



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 06:33 PM
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this thread has nothing to do with antisemitism. You obviously did not read my post, nor did you read what I am trying to get at. There seems to be a conspiracy to cover up the events in Asia by putting emphasis on the Holocaust. This point is proven that when I suggest this, I am deemed an anti-semite. I understand that the title of this article is a bit offensive, but I don't know what it has anything to do with my point. All you've just claimed was pure opinion and is not even a response to my point.

The Holocaust did not only involve Jews. Why is it that if someone questions an aspect of it (I'm not even talking about its historical accuracy, I'm simply querying as to why it is taught so much, sacrificing time that could have been spent teaching other atrocities as well), they are immediately antisemitic? I mean I've already talked about this whole thing, so lets please go back to the topic. I think I just dug up something interesting in Iris Chang's suicide, especially her suicide note.



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 07:02 PM
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I think the most cryptic line is:

"There are aspects of my experience in Louisville that I will never understand."

Louisville was the place she was visiting to get those audiotapes from within the tank, and is also where she had her "breakdown", and , which is considered to be the trigger that caused her to go on the path towards suicide. What happened there?? Why are there aspects that she doesn't understand? What aspects?

[edit on 21-1-2008 by italkyoulisten]



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 10:48 PM
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I think one of the reasons that the Holocaust is more widely taught than other war atrocities of WWII is because the American education system pretty much ends the teaching of World History during the history of the Roman Empire and all history taught thereafter is Western Civilization.

In other words, our (American's) history lessons are basically timestamps for great events affecting white people (that get by with a little help from their friends.)

ps. This is my opinion as a blonde haired, blue eyed, thirtysomething, American white guy.



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 11:05 PM
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Great thread!

I myself wouldn't have called the Holocaust "overrated" but you do bring up valid points about the European holocaust as opposed to the Asian holocausts of WWII.

I mean the Imperial Japanese Army just thought that every other asian country was beneath them. The chinese they especially hated as it was their ages old dream to annex the "Sleeping Dragon". But the southeast asians were little more than jungle primitives, to them.

Singapore on the other hand was a cornerstone of the British Empire and the jewel in the crown for strategic control of south east asia.

The King of Thailand was so worried by them that he gave them free passage through his country on their way down to Singapore just so he could stay on their good side! In the face of western impotence!

My Malaysian grandfather got off lightly when they passed through his village on the way down to Singapore. They commandeered his bicycle for the "greater good" and only roughed up a few locals. They were more interested in their objective.

But my chinese grandfather... Not so much. He was part of a defense force in Singapore and when it fell through crappy British leadership (Gallipoli anyone?) and the brits and aussies formally surrendered and were ushered off all civilized like to POW camps. The chinese and malay defenders were left to fend for themselves.

They were viewed as just the dogs of the British Imperialists and were treated atrociously. Also remember that captured soldiers were considered without honour by the Japanese.

Continuous beatings were common. Many people died in custody. My grandfather lost the use of his left hand during the occupation.

So yeah, as significant but not as widely known.

One thing I have to say though: Australia, where I live, the history of southeast asia during WWII is a widely taught subject in schools.

Anderi



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 07:59 PM
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reply to post by italkyoulisten
 


Excellent points, well thought out and presented.


Have a look at this book to expand on your ideas.

Beyond Chutzpah by Norman Finkelstein



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 10:03 PM
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Is the Holocaust overrated? Well, history is written by the winners, and from the POV of the Allies who were fighting in Europe to stop Hitler. The history that is taught in classes mostly focuses on (or I assume focuses on) the battles that won the Second World War. The reason why the atrocities in Asia aren't talked about in the same breath as the Holocaust is because we weren't involved in it. We weren't there, tripping over corpses, or stumbling on to fiendish, terrible things. It was the Allied troops who found the death camps like Auschwitz and Bergen-Belsen but they also took photographs, and filmed it. Even now, it's stomach churning to glance at these frames. You also can't teach the Asian atrocities to impressionable teenagers learning about WW2. You'd give them nightmares and that's no use.

There is no difference between the wrong and the wrong.

[edit on 22/1/08 by MacDonagh]

[edit on 22/1/08 by MacDonagh]



posted on Jan, 22 2008 @ 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by MacDonagh
The history that is taught in classes mostly focuses on (or I assume focuses on) the battles that won the Second World War. The reason why the atrocities in Asia aren't talked about in the same breath as the Holocaust is because we weren't involved in it. We weren't there, tripping over corpses, or stumbling on to fiendish, terrible things. It was the Allied troops who found the death camps like Auschwitz and Bergen-Belsen but they also took photographs, and filmed it.


They teach about the battle of Okinawa because it was an important battle. However, they don't teach about the Japanese spreading propaganda leaflets that caused over 300,000 Okinawans to commit suicide in fear of being tortured by US soldiers.

We were there. To call it not an important part of WWII is not only a blatant denial of historical fact, but further supports my claim on the distortion of history due to bias. If the Japanese took Asia, the Axis would have won, just as if the Germans had taken Europe. The US and Australia played a pretty large role in Asia, actually, and when Japan finally fell, that day was declared Victory-Japan Day. Tell the US PoWs that Bataan was nothing. Tell them that they were not an important part of the war. Tell the veterans who fought in the Pacific theater that their part in the war was unimportant because it was in Asia. To say that WWII only involved the west is a blatantly false claim, and only shows the hidden racism and bias in the history that we are taught. In actuality, 1937 should be considered the beginning of WWII when Japan began her invasion in China. JAPAN WAS AN AXIS POWER. This was a part of their plan; Blitzkrieg came later. It was all part of the same plot for global domination.

But I think what is more important right now is what happened to Iris Chang?



posted on Jan, 23 2008 @ 10:21 AM
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reply to post by italkyoulisten
 



They teach about the battle of Okinawa because it was an important battle. However, they don't teach about the Japanese spreading propaganda leaflets that caused over 300,000 Okinawans to commit suicide in fear of being tortured by US soldiers.


Well, that's up to your historians isn't it? It wasn't over 300,000 either. From the book I'm reading now, the number was in excess of 140,000, in addition to more then a third of the civilian population being injured. They also don't teach how the Japanese mistreated the civilians, stole their food causing mass starvation or used them as human shields. There was a recent controversy pertaining to the Japanese military role in the mass suicide of civilians. search.japantimes.co.jp...

The Japanese government has a hard time with this, because it shows how barbaric their ancestors were. That said, at least there are forces within Japan who want to face up to what occurred during those years so they can learn from their mistakes, unwholesome as they are.


We were there. To call it not an important part of WWII is not only a blatant denial of historical fact, but further supports my claim on the distortion of history due to bias.


We weren't there until 1941. We couldn't have prevented their invasion of Manchuria in 1931 because it had nothing to do with us. We rattled our sabers in the League of Nations and they asked for Japanese troops to withdraw, but the Japanese ignored them, and wanted direct negotiations with China. Not to mention that all of history has been subject to biased opinions, or whatever. Which part of WW2 rankles with you more? The part were the Holocaust is apparently "overrated" or the part were we have "ignored" the Asian conflict?

I don't think we have ignored it, as there are many books on it and documentaries highlighting what happened in Asia at that time. Classrooms also usually only focus on a few parts of WW2, since the subject matter is so huge.


If the Japanese took Asia, the Axis would have won, just as if the Germans had taken Europe.


Really? Did they have the Nuclear bomb? Sounds juvenile but it's true. The Japanese would not give up thanks to their devotion to their Emperor and the only way to stop them was to bomb them into submission. And the Germans almost got Europe. Britain would've been taken over if we were directly connected to Europe. Our saving grace is that we were an island and we took desperate measures to avoid surrender.


Tell the US PoWs that Bataan was nothing. Tell them that they were not an important part of the war. Tell the veterans who fought in the Pacific theater that their part in the war was unimportant because it was in Asia.


Sorry, but you may have misunderstood me. We weren't involved in Asia, because it was the Russians who found the bases were they conducted experiments on various POWs, Russian civilians women and children, Chinese people, Mongolians and other nationalities. What I meant by not being involved was that we didn't come across it and saw the devastation that it caused. It was the Russians. I would not say that they were unimportant, as there were battles to be fought there. They didn't invade Japan though. They bombed them.


In actuality, 1937 should be considered the beginning of WWII when Japan began her invasion in China.


Why not Manchuria in 1931? Surely that was an act of war?


But I think what is more important right now is what happened to Iris Chang?


She became depressed after too much emotional strain. Not only was she exhausted from her book tour, but had fertility treatments that may have exacerbated her condition. Her son was born with a different mother, which according to her widow, was around the time were she began to behave oddly. She began thinking that an evil organisation was trying to recruit her as a "Manchurian candidate." She didn't believe that she had Bipolar depression, and she committed suicide. She spent too much time staring into the abyss, and it disturbed her greatly and she obviously didn't have the filters that are needed to deal with the terrible subjects that she tackled or else she'd still be writing books. Is there any evidence to the contrary?



posted on Jan, 23 2008 @ 06:08 PM
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First I would like to say this thread is appalling.

As much as I am downright sick of hearing the wrong people pull the anti-semitism card, I am also sick of the same anti-semitism toward Jews who have moved on and live their lives here in america and only ask for mutual respect.

Now I'll make MY case...

First off, there seems to be a misunderstanding here where Jews as a religion (they are NOT a race) are being targeted in specific, when indeed the enemy here that gets so many people annoyed with the Holocaust Issue is ZIONISM/Neoconservatism.

I have no problem with Jews, or anyone who practice what they preach. There are many Jews here in America who are productive citizens, and they live their lives only wanting peace and prosperity, just like me.

I do however have a problem with Zionists/Neoconservatives. I lump these two together because not only are a large part of the "Neocons" in the US dual Israeli/US citizens (a serious conflict of interest), but they both capitalize from perpetuation of this Holocaust. They are the ONLY ones who I hear perpetuating the Holocaust in fact like it just happened yesterday because they continue to capitalize from it. And we're all supposed to drop what we're doing and be sympathetic to the wrong people every time we hear about it right? But my grandpa who was a great Welterweight Boxing champ before the war and died a cripple is forgotten. He never asked for anything.

This is the year 2008. Why are we not past it? I'll tell you why.

Because the Zionists (who we are supposed to feel so sorry for) are taking US Taxpayer dollars and giving them to Israel to Bulldoze and shoot Palestinians and their homes and thus are guilty of committing another Holocaust themselves. Total Hypocrisy.

Meanwhile US Troops are sent to Iraq, and Afghanistan to kill more people who did nothing to us. That's right.

And we're going to up the ante even more with the murders of the Iranians too, because what we've done up till now is obviously not good enough, right? because "Israel dont feel safe?" Let them handle it themselves!

Yet over here in the States we have this "wonderful" new Holocaust Museum, you know, to portray how genocide is an atrocity, and in schools kids who know nothing of the murder that both the US and Israel commit now get it forced down their throats too, only they don't get the real story. They get the edited by Zionists story. Why don't they get to hear the real story?

So to the Jews, I would indeed like to extend my sympathies because I know that what was done was atrocious, and I really mean that. I also on the same hand extend my sympathies to all of the other victims of Genocide and Holocaust, including the US soldiers who got forced into the mix too, almost every damned time for some reason.

But the present-day Zionists and Neoconservatives who are the pots that call the kettle black, can KMA, and shut up with the anti-semitism card.
It's a complete insult to the good people who died. ALL OF THEM.

They can KMA because condemning genocide of arabs is NOT anti-semitic. Choosing to NOT give my unwavering attention something that was quite old before I was even born is NOT anti-semitic, and it is NOT anti-semitic to feel that my tax dollars are far better spent on Americans rather than Illegal Occupiers, liars, crooks and hypocrites in Israeli "Government".

Because it's these people who others seem to forget have caused a LARGE PART of what we all have rammed down our throats today, and somehow people are made to believe WE owe them something for it? Well I don't.

Why is it not just a lesson that we keep in the back of our .s, and learn from it rather than allowing criminals to capitalize from it?

Today, in 2008, a LONG time after the same Holocaust that seems to self-righteously overshadow the rest, I think that it is still not overrated but rather used as a tool to detract from what the Zionists are guilty of themselves.

[edit on 23-1-2008 by Critical_Mass]



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 06:47 AM
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Originally posted by Critical_Mass
Today, in 2008, a LONG time after the same Holocaust that seems to self-righteously overshadow the rest, I think that it is still not overrated but rather used as a tool to detract from what the Zionists are guilty of themselves.

[edit on 23-1-2008 by Critical_Mass]


Thanks Critical Mass. I think your post is well-balanced and a lot more rationally expressed than some of the points of view have been on this and connected threads.

However, I disagree with your final point, and the wider point that has been made in earlier posts linking the holocaust to current sympathy particularly from the US towards questionable Israeli domestic and foreign policy.

There's an obvious link between persecution of the Jews prior to and during the second world war, and the creation of a nation state immediately afterwards. But I don't think support for the Israeli cause now has much involvement with that link. Rather, US support for Israel comes from a strategic and political expediency in having a trusted ally in the middle of a bunch of untrusted enemies. I don't think that comes from a Zionist conspiracy, I think it comes from a dislike of being shot at. In the same way the US chooses its friends inconsistently, by being relatively chummy with the Saudi government, not because it approves or particularly supports its Islamic regime, but because it suits American military, strategic and political interests to stay on good terms.

In other words, the current support for Israel isn't based on a Zionist campaign, but on a convenience that, while consistent in the 60 odd years since the creation of Israel, is not necessarily directly linked to the cause behind the creation of that nation state at the end of the War.

To tie this point back to the OP, which talks about over-awareness of the holocaust, and its hyped up importance - there is a relevance here, because the suggestion might be that preaching about the holocaust occurs in order to lend weight to the justification for the US support for the Israeli regime. This is demonstrably untrue - the link isn't there. The fact is that the US government openly bases its support for Israel on political expediency, not religious or Zionist campaigning. Sad to say, in the past when it has been convenient to support the Iraqi or Iranian regimes, the US has done so, as it does the Saudi regime now - and that, in my view, is where the real conspiracy lies, because they are far less open when it comes to propping up Islamic states than they are Jewish ones.

LW



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 07:02 PM
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Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to benign.psychosis

'You hear about the Holocaust all of the time simply because of Jewish Zionist Propaganda and because Jews/Zionists own most major media outlets.'

Yup that’s exactly right.


No, it isn't exactly right. In fact, it's very far from being right. Can you list all of the Zionists in control of the media for me?

The fact that there are stars above your post is both baffling and disgusting



posted on Jan, 27 2008 @ 12:20 AM
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OH MY GOD !! i cant believe someone out there feels the same way. ive always thought that, and lots not forget the atrocities of stalin, mousollini or the darfur, yes i feel in my heart pain for the jews but they are NOT THE ONLY ONES WHO HAVE HAD TO SUFFER !!!!!!! i bet to some this thinking makes us anti-semitic what bullocks ! it does not, i do wonder too tho do u think even god feels 'his' people suffering is worse than when other races have to go thro such atrocities? thank you for speaking out about this...


[edit on 27-1-2008 by vonwoolf appollonia]



posted on Jan, 27 2008 @ 01:29 AM
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I am feeling a disassociation with this thread. The name in and of itself is telling:

"The Holocaust is Overrated "

The Holocaust was perpetrated predominantly on Jewish people. Yes, there were Slavs, Poles, basically anyone that didn't get in line with the REICH. May I ask, what's the point?

Do we consider slaves from Africa "unfortunate cruise recipients"? Helluva cruise but a bad ending?

I'm just not getting the point. Why do we look at what happened as less? Because they're jews? If that is the case, this isn't a forum that I want to be around. I thought we thought here not to spread ignorance.

Spread hate elsewhere. I noticed a few other lurkers and they're SO in line with this. My question is, "What's the problem?"

Mash up friends, we need a cleansing. I sure need a drink.



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