Is There A Conspiracy Of Atheists To Overthrow Christianity?, page 61

Originally posted by Cuhail
reply to post by sizzle

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Well, Intrepid, Skyfloating....and....who?

I'm not anti-christian. I'm not anti-atheist.
I'm also not pro-christian nor pro-atheist.

Who's your third?

Cuhail

I second this feeling. While I may identify myself as an Atheist, I'm not pro-atheist because what would that mean, besides I strongly believe in Atheism? I have no desire to be apart of machinations or political maneuverings, I don't support them. If there is anybody else in the world out there doing something stupid in the name of Atheism, I'd chastise him just as strongly as I would as a similar person of an entirely different belief system. I see a lot of this militant Atheism going around, seems like it's more about disproving religion than coming to a conclusion that there's no gods. Who cares what anybody believes? We're not here to find out about each others belief, we're here to debate the given topic. Who drew this line in the sand that says Atheists have to be over here and Believers over here. Isn't conceivable that both theories have redeeming messages and ideas? Instead of trying to get one to be the winner, lets cross pollinate cool thoughts, and maybe we can all get a little closer to what we're searching for.

Oh yeah, cool thoughts and campfire singalongs isn't on topic.

I think we've pretty much established here that some Atheists somewhere are plotting something that isn't good for religion in some way. The same could be said about politcal movement X is plotting something that isn't good for organization Y. Not that that makes it any better, but I think it demonstrates clearly that this kind of problem is more directly attributed to personal motivations than the beliefs they held. While these beliefs can factor in to varying degrees, the responsibilty for making a choice that be considered immoral still lies squarely with the person. So to sum up the answer to the question posed by the thread title:

Are Atheists conspiring to overthrow Christianity?
No.
Are some Atheists conspiring to overthrow Christianity?
Maybe, I guess, overthrowing Christianity is a pretty tall order. I can't see it really getting anywhere anytime in the forseeable future.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

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Apology accepted, thank you walkingFox.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

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No worries whatsoever, Foxy. We're all human and have all done the same thing to each other at one time or another. I'm truly sorry to hear you are going through something that is offsetting you in real life. That's always rough. It is indeed hard to turn off emotions when we come here and it certainly seems true that we have all been guilty of venting our real world frustrations on fellow ATS members thanks to cyber anonymity. Apology accepted and animosity forgotten. Clean slate starting now.

[edit on 4/10/2008 by AshleyD]

reply to post by Bigwhammy

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Soz whammy, but where in The Bible does it state that having "the holy spirit" in you is a necessity for understanding the "true" meaning of The Bible?
Verse and chapter please.

The Bible, according to Xians is "the" word of God.
There is no secret, gnostic, hidden message.
The Bible is words, and words are simply words.
The Bible is the tool which nearly 2 millenium of Xians have used to gain converts.

Any attempt to imply that there are "hidden" messages in The Bible is elitist and is merely an attemp to justify a particular interpretation of The Bible as THE "true" interpretation.

[edit on 10/4/08 by Freeborn]

reply to post by Freeborn

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Which is the core point I was trying to make. The principle behind Christianity is that every man on earth has equal access to it and what it contains. Any person can pick up the Bible, go "oh, that's what it says" and there you go.

Bigwhammy, AshleyD, and some others are claiming the opposite. That you need a sort of "keymaster" to unlock the bible for you, to teach you the "correct" interpretations (their interpretation). Without this elite person there to guide you, you might as well leave that bible in the nightstand drawer, because you're useless and unable to comprehend it.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

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Well said Fox.

It is very easy to twist the words The Bible to fit any particular intepretation claiming mystical insight to the "true" meaning thanks to the presence of "the holy spirit".


Words are words and say what they say.
So simple.

As an aside, I wonder just how many "true" interpretations of The Bible there is or has been and how many have been inspired by the holy ghost or spirit?
Quite a few I would imagine.


Edit to add:

I must also say that all the elitist, gnostic and mystical mumbo jumbo is most un-Christian and quite contrary to the core message of Jesus which was love and peace to all men as far as I can remember.
(Don't need any secret key to unlock that)

[edit on 10/4/08 by Freeborn]

Originally posted by Freeborn
Soz whammy, but where in The Bible does it state that having "the holy spirit" in you is a necessity for understanding the "true" meaning of The Bible?
Verse and chapter please.

Originally posted by maddnessinmysoul
no, i'm unwilling to accept that your particular view is the divinely inspired way the holy spirit is inspiring you to interpret the scriptures

Originally posted by theWalkingFox
Bigwhammy, AshleyD, and some others are claiming the opposite. That you need a sort of "keymaster" to unlock the bible for you,

Guys its been posted four times in the last couple pages.

It's not just my "claim" or "view" as you guys are trying to paint it. You guys are just unaware of what the Bible teaches. It is a well known and solid Biblical doctrine accepted and taught by all of Biblical Christianity. I refer you once again to:

1 Corinthians 2
14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Note we believe the scriptures are a "thing that comes from the Spirit of God". We also believe when you accept Christ into your life you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

I have personal experience to know that this is true. My understanding transformed in a supernaturally rapid fashion once I made a decision.

orangetom addressed it in great detail here

Originally posted by orangetom1999
WalkingFox,

In the same pattern as the above explanations...concerning your quote here

Skyfloating,

I was told that because I am not a member of the "right" religion I am unable to understand written words.

Skyfloating,

I was told that because I am not walking in the gift of the Holy Spirit, I am unable to understand the Word of God.

Do you see the difference here WalkingFox? I hope so! Believers can see this too, especially those on strong meat. Hope this helps you in the future.

I do hope this helps you two in understanding,

[edit on 4/10/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by Bigwhammy

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Sorry whammy but that quote does not say that there is a secret, hidden message in The Bible and that you have unearthed it's true meaning by having The Holy Spirit in you.

That was also written by Paul who was using and changing Christianity to futher his own particular intepretation of Jesus's teachings.

Paul never even met Jesus, how did his opinion come to outweigh The Apostles???

[edit on 10/4/08 by Freeborn]

reply to post by Freeborn

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Sorry but you are just proving the point. It says that very clearly to all the believers who read it. No hard feelings.

Most of Christian doctrine comes from the Apostle Paul. If you do not want to accept him, there's nothing to left to say really.

Best wishes in your search.

[edit on 4/10/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by Bigwhammy

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Sorry whammy but that quote does not say that there is a secret, hidden message in The Bible and that you have unearthed it's true meaning by having The Holy Spirit in you.

That was also written by Paul who was using and changing Christianity to futher his own particular intepretation of Jesus's teachings.

Paul never even met Jesus, how did his opinion come to outweigh The Apostles???

[edit on 10/4/08 by Freeborn]

Freeborn,
You have a valid point here in that there are no secrets in Christianity.
There is no secret hidden message in the Bible. Correct here. The message is however spiritually discerned...this is very different from what is described in one of the posts by someone...gnostic Christianity.

Gnostic Christianity ..full of mysterys ..is not Christianity..it is Occult. Hidden and concealed. We do in fact have an example of Gnostics in the Bible who came to see the Child in the manger and bore gifts. For they too recognized this child as a King. They were the Magi..or wise men...Gnostics is a term for wise men. THe custom even among the Gnostics/Magi was to bring gifts before a King. As people graduating from schools..public schools and even private schools we often wear the Mortar Board...of the Gnostics. Wisemen. The funny square cap on our heads with the tassle. This is the symbol of wise men..gnostics...we are educated into the gnostic system and thus symbolized. That is what this mortar board implys..we are educated into the wisdom of this world.

The Wisdom of the Bible..the Word is Spiritually discerned ..not by the wisdom of men. It is intended this way. It is not secret. We know this because when you talk with a Christian they will tell you anything you want to know. As a matter of record..it is often difficult to get them to shut up.

Those who do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them cannot discern what the Bible says. Not because it is secret...for all have access to a Bible. But becasuse they simply cannot discern. The dischord evident on these boards is ample testimony to the concept that this is true. Also it is testimony to the Truth of the offense of the Word. THe sad thing for many Believers ...including myself ..is that we often forget that the Bible/Word can be offensive to even us.

I think this is an incorrect rendering or usage of whoever made the term secret...on a post. There is nothing secret in the Gnostic sense in Christianity. It is merely Spiritually discerned..and not by any spirit...but by His Holy Spirit indwelling in those who have his name upon thier lips daily.

Hope this helps guys ..but your point about Gnostic Christianity and secrets is correct. I know this because when I can find real material ..on the occult and occult patterns surrounding us daily ..I read this stuff and contrast it with Bible teaching.

As to the Apostle Paul...Paul was a pharisee...not just any pharisee but taught and instructed in the inner court of the Pharisee sect. One could make your same argument about Moses..since Moses was raised in the house of Pharaoh..in the inner court. Moses would know about the occult workings of the Egyptian religion. In like manner so would Paul...know about the hidden inner workings ..occult..of the Hebrews and the Pharisee sect. Yet we do not see him developing this line of thought. Instead we see Paul rebuking the other Apostles for sticking to the Hebrew dietary laws and seperating from the gentiles as if they did not understand the significance of the Cross and what happened with the death of the Testator. Paul goes to great lengths to clarify this in his epistles to the Romans, Galatians, Corinthians, Ephesians and others. Patricularly this is clarified in the letter to the Hebrews...since he is speaking to Hebrews Paul can use more Olde Testament quotations since non Hebrews would not have much of a clue in these types of quotes. Hebrews is full of Olde Testament references. ONe must be knowlegable in the Olde Testament to understand much of the Book of Hebrews. It certainly helps.

This is the reason so many want to quote Paul as changing the New Testament. Because they want to privily bring believers back into Olde Testament Bondage and away from the Cross and what it means to Believers. We are not to ignore the Olde Testament ..but the Olde Testament is our Schoolmaster. But after the Master/the Testator has come we are not longer under that system. We are freed from those laws. Instead those restraints are taken further in the New Testament.
This is the purpose of all these rebukes of the knowlege Paul has given us in the Epistles..to keep us on Milk or less...not on strong meat.

There were great preachers to come along in the Christian sect in later years. In the 1800s there was a preacher named Charles Hadden Spurgeon. When asked how and why he was so effective as a preacher he went on to state...whenever issues of Scripture and personal conduct...difficultys came up among believers...he would always take the issue or matter of conflict straight backt to the Cross. A straight line back to the Cross. Intresting observation by Charles Spurgeon.

Paul is not liked because he clearly was among the first of the Apostles to understand what was the full significance of the Cross. We have this testimony in the Epistles of Paul.
If this were not so..why would his own people in the flesh ..the Hebrews be trying to kill him?? If he was teaching pharisee Hebrew doctrine..he would be getting a pass from them and he did not. Nor did the other Apostles..and we have this record in the New Testament...the whole New Testament.

Hope this helps.

Thanks,
Orangetom

reply to post by orangetom1999

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Hi orangetom, great post. It is true, there are no secrets in the Bible. But by constantly studying the text and allowing the Holy Spirit to work in us, we gain a deeper understanding of the text. Notice how many Bibles have a concordance. This usually reflects other text in the Bible that is associated to the original text. With continued study, these correlations often come automatically. This is the work of the Holy Spirit, not revealing secrets as some think, but giving a deeper understanding. The Bible has to taken as a whole. This is why so many people misunderstand what is being said, because they tend to pick and choose different pieces of text.

2 Timothy 2:15

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

reply to post by Bigwhammy

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Time to try and clear up something here. I'm a little late to the party but here is the argument as I see it.

There is a group of people saying that you have to 'have the spirit inside you to understand the teachings of the spirit' this could also be understood to mean that the 'secrets are only revealed to the initiated'

The group of people who purports this view is using Paul to support them, saying that 'most of Christian doctrine comes from Paul therefore we must accept Pauline teachings or we are lost.

My response to this argument......

Pauline beliefs dont support the argument that is being made. The most important teaching attributed to Paul is

Ephesians 2:8: "You have been saved by God's love and kindness because you believed. It was not because of anything you did, but it was a gift from God."

A believer in Paul's church needed only make a statement of belief to fulfill all the requirements of Paul's Christianity. It was enough to believe that the Messiah died on the cross for the forgivness of sins.

Now, on the other hand, if we look at what was attributed to Yeshua and his contemporaries we find that:

Yeshua said repeatedly what was reported in John 3:3:

"'I tell you the truth. No person can see God's kingdom if he is not born again.'"

And in another form in Luke 17:20-21:

"The kingdom of God does not come visibly, nor will people say 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

Humankind was to develop its own salvation by changing within. No one would give it to a person as a gift.

Yeshua promised the transformation would require work:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7: 13-14)

Yeshua asserts elsewhere that simply making a statement of belief is insufficient to achieve what he describes:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:21-27)

Spiritual development, Yeshua assured us, was going to be hard. He described the thought and behavior that should be characteristic of a spiritual person, but said it would take work to attain it. He never suggested that all a person had to do was swear allegiance to him and nothing else would be required.

By looking at these two VERY different accounts of salvation you should be able to see that if you consider that there are 'secrets in the bible ment only for the initiate' the teachings of Yeshua and his Apostles certainly support your argument more than looking to Paul.

Yes, the contemporary church IS built upon Paul and his teachings. No, the teachings of Paul vs the teachings of Yeshua and his contemporaries do not always dove tail. This is one cause of current confusion with the church. The pre pauline teachings were much more in 'vogue' prior to the council of nicene in the Fourth century and were practiced widely by the Early Christian Churches.

You have a myriad of Christian teachings upon which to draw upon to support your arguments, make sure you use the right ones at the right times please.

reply to post by orangetom1999

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I tried to make an analogy of code and key to clarify it. The Holy Spirit being the key. Perhaps that caused the difficulty.

Yeah I never said "secret". I think that was an assumption someone made. The words are there for anyone to read. It is a matter of comprehension.

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