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Is There A Conspiracy Of Atheists To Overthrow Christianity?

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posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 03:56 PM
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The fact that goes whizzing over the heads of my critics is very simply that the only reason I get involved in the homosexuality debate at all is that folks misrepresent the Bible. I do not concern myself with other peoples private lives at all. That's between them and God. What concerns me is this modern attempt at the twisting of the scriptures to justify a well established sin.

The issue came up in response to Cons comment...


Originally posted by conspiriology
Your words tell me NOT only is the conspiracy walking and living among us, but when the days come that accusing a sinner takes more risk for ridicule than the risk of shame for the one committing it.


The ensuing debate only served to prove the conspiracy.




posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 05:16 PM
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reply to post by NewWorldOver
 


as off topic as it pretty much always is...

reply to post by Bigwhammy
 


but con is implying that people are taking some sort of risk or deserve some sort of shame for being born a certain way

that is something that we like to call prejudice

it may be a "sin"
but please, show me how homosexuality inherently hurts people

when you criticize a group of people for being born a certain way or even acting a certain way without providing anything to show objective harm, you kind of deserve ridicule for displaying prejudice

[edit on 4/7/08 by madnessinmysoul]



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 05:31 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 



it may be a "sin"



That's all I ever said. If you do not believe in God the word sin has no bearing on you. Sin is disobeying God.



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 06:21 PM
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reply to post by Bigwhammy
 


...but you cannot fully prove that homosexuality is against god

before you whip out the handy dandy bible passages, you're going to have to show me god's personal endorsement there and fully prove that it wasn't just the intolerance towards homosexuals prevalent in the region during the bronze and iron ages.

last time i checked, yahweh, jesus, and the holy spirit never say anything about homosexuality. it's people who claim to be speaking on their behalf.



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 06:25 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Its no big secret that the majority of Christians accept the Bible. It clearly identifies the behavior as sin. I believe the Bible.



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 06:26 PM
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reply to post by Bigwhammy
 


The question being "what God"? There are many cultures that don't diss gays or see them as "sinners".



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 06:36 PM
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reply to post by intrepid
 


Hello?

I said I believe the Bible.... do you really need to ask me what God? The Old and New Testaments teach that homosexuality is a sin. That is all I have taken a stand on. It is a true statement.

You guys bring your own preconceived prejudices against Christianity into the mix and make accusations against me personally that are not true. I have never discriminated against or persecuted anyone. You just prove your own prejudice.

How is continuing this discussion of homosexuality pertain to this topic anyway? I really don't have any thing left to say. You guys have proven the point for us.



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 06:39 PM
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I have a tendency to think that Atheists in general are smart enough to see that, as demonstrated in this thread, there's no way to "overthrow" Christianity, because there's no way to globally change people's beliefs, whether it has to do with Christianity or anything else. You can't fight with logic something that is inherently illogical.

A change of beliefs can only happen on an individual level, when personal experience consistently fails to match up with an expectation created by the belief. And there's no really good way to control and individual's experiences to that degree.

The whole notion that any organization of Atheists (who are notoriously hard to organize in the first place) is foolish enough to think Christianity can be undermined enough to destroy it is really underestimating the intelligence of the Atheists.



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 08:23 PM
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reply to post by Maya432
 


Despite your protestations to the contrary you appear to be RIPE for the NEW AGE RELIGION, whenever the powers that be decide to plop it upon the masses. It will be mandatory and those who do not conform, will eventually be exterminated, probably along the lines of the St. Bartholomew Days Massacre, but maybe something involving law enforcement.

Sounds too bizarre?



posted on Apr, 7 2008 @ 10:19 PM
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reply to post by Nohup
 

Hi Nohup,
Looks like the thread is still on, but at least I am now seeing a little different flavor inserted.
But anyway, back to your post, specifically; I have ran across many of your posts on this board, and though many of your thoughts and beliefs, go against, 'my grain( so to speak), the posts have been intelligent and insightful. And I have to realize that everyone has the right to their own opinion.
There have been many times I felt like pulling my hair out, or screaming, but all I could do was take a posting break. But this is the first time I've felt like hugging you.
I don't know if this point has been brought up yet on this thread. Even if Atheists, or any other group succeed in removing certain things from public view; They cannot take it from our hearts.
Well said, Nohup.



posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 12:38 AM
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Unless I missed it somewhere between page 56&57 I did not get an answer to my question as to why the "litmus test" for Believers is their stance on Homosexuality. Why is this? Can someone clarify this for me?? Why does a topic ..especially on a thread with a title like this one gel down to this "litmus test??"

This litmus test happens with such regularity in these posts that it becomes predictable and not original at all. It becomes a

Jerry ....Jerry...Jerry...type atmosphere on these boards. In reference to Jerry Springer of course!!

Am I going to get an answer this time?

Why do the conversations... the tack..if you like..always gel down to this one topic line??

Toasted,

Wow!!.....very intresting that someone else out here knows about the ST. Bartholomews Day Massacre. I dont believe Ive ever seen anyone even post the name of that event. Well done.

Nohup..well said in your post about athiessts not being able to organize because of the very nature of thier individuality. I pretty much agree. Well said.

Madnessinmysoul,

IN lock step with your very capable nature you take to much upon yourself in the assumption that no one out here will catch on to it.


...but you cannot fully prove that homosexuality is against god

before you whip out the handy dandy bible passages, you're going to have to show me god's personal endorsement there and fully prove that it wasn't just the intolerance towards homosexuals prevalent in the region during the bronze and iron ages.

last time i checked, yahweh, jesus, and the holy spirit never say anything about homosexuality. it's people who claim to be speaking on their behalf.



Totally incorrect here..totally. YOu assume and think most will not catch on to it. You would be quite correct in banking on the nature of most Believers. Quite correct as I stated most belivers know little Bible and even less history.

Homosexuality and even Heterosexuality falls under the line of "Whoredom" when extended to the apex of expression by highly educated intelligent human beings.
The sad truth about this buisness is that so many believers lose sight of this view in boards like this. They are easily bamboozled by posts like yours. Easily neutered and defaulted.

The prohibition is against "Whoredom" in the Bible..from cover to cover..both Olde and New testaments. This is very specific...Madnessinmysoul. Even against his chosen people when they whored..they were often killed. This too is recorded. The God of the Bible is an equal opportunity anti whoredom God.

Madnessinmysoul..when you attempt the tack you do in the passage of your's that I quoted above ..you misdirect and mislead..for your purposes. No problem here in this with me. However, in this you cheat both yourself and also Believers. From your standpoint you would be correct in doing this...for as I stated ..many Believers are not well attuned to Bible or History. However..I know and will catch it. In process of time so will others on these boards and they will learn to put Light and Salt upon this.

As I stated in my previous post...the whoredoms of the nations surrounding Ancient Israel are known and recorded...including their sexual whoredoms..both homo and hetero sexual whoredoms. The Hebrews were told not to do this and many did it anyway. They were often punnished for these whoredoms when Gods longsuffering ran out.

Nothing has changed since the Cross in this arena. Believers are still to come out from amongst them and be ye seperate. To not engage in these "Whoredoms." To not take on the appearence and manner of this world.

This is the position of Believers who see, hear, and understand what is written in the Word. I dont expect you to understand nor approve. No problem. I merely declare what is declared to a peculear people.

I understand what BigWhammy is trying to express. I dont necessarily agree with thier tack or lack there of...but I do understand. I just dont think BigWhammy fully understands Salt. No problem here either.

Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom


[edit on 8-4-2008 by orangetom1999]



posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 02:43 AM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 


Thanks for your posts Orange. They probably won't answer you. Because I think it's the "litmus test" because it is a baiting game non believers use to label you as intolerant or bigoted for believing the Bible. I guess I know what you mean by Salt. I admit I do not like being called names. I try to pick my battles.

Although it is a noble thing to stand up for oppressed people. Everyone has temptations and proclivity toward certain sins or vices. As Christians we are challenged to resist and not act on it. God promises to help. Homosexuals that want to follow the Bible should resist the tendency. They are not condemned just challenged.

I guess by"whoredom" you mean all sexual sin?

I have said this before as well. Homosexuality is no worse than fornication or adultery really. But that does not excuse any of it. It's all sin. Whoredom is a good word for it. I am not singling anybody out and I always fully admit I am a sinner. With Gods help I overcome my weaknesses. That's why I need a Savior. What gets me fired up is people trying to deny that the Bible calls it sinful.

I don't understand why "sin" bothers non believers...
If you don't believe in God, the word sin has no bearing on you.

or do you?



posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 10:11 AM
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BigWhammy,

I need to get you to understand a few things from History which are not often taught to us in the state of our very sorry Educational systems of today.

First off Believers, Just as were the Hebrews of olde, are a minority. Always have been and always will be. They are a minority surrounded by wildlife which does not like them. It was the same with ancient Israel. Do not be alarmed by this. This is the natural state of this world. Always has been and always will be.

It is in fact and often a baiting game. You are correct in this. You should know better, be awares, and conduct yourself accordingly. The Mods are correct in their warnings. Even in disagreement one can be civil. Firm but civil. No sense in letting a board deteriorate to the lowest common denominator. I am in agreement with the Mods for this stance.
You need to be smarter than this in your posts. Any of your posts on any board. Do try to work on this. In the long run it will hellp you and as the Mods correctly say..it will contribute to the quality of the boards.

As to oppressed people...I dont consider this to be an oppressed people for the reasons stated. It does not make good nonsense to declare ones greatness by boasting and declaring ones sexual orientation. Hetero or Homo. People have to go to school(television education) to get this naturally stupid. This ignorance does not come naturally but must be carefully cultivated. As I have clearly stated..people are so much more than sex and sexual orientation. It does not make good nonsense to declare ones identity by sex or sexual orientation.

Something else..for believers and unbelievers both to understand and know..we cannot save nor condem these people. What we do is seperate from them. Saving or condeming is His work..not ours. This is way out of our jurisdiction. What we also do is declare what is declared by Him.
One more thing of importance. The believer knows that "all " of us..including and especially Believers ..deserve hell and damnation and rightly so. This is why we cannot save or condem anyone else ..but this is His work. For the Righteousness we know is not ours...but His.
I think that many Believers forget this when posting on boards and threads like this one.

I dont care if people call me names. People have been calling me names all my life. Not a problem with me BigWhammy. You realize ,after awhile, that name calling and labeling is a standard bill of fare in posts like this. No problem. Put on the whole armour. Gird yourself. Do not yourself get involved in namecalling, baiting, and labeling or you risk being lead across the gulf.

By Whoredom I mean all sin and particularly spiritual sin..by which all the rest will follow. This is historically demonstratable if one knows where and how to look.

As to the "litmus test' this test is also used in many other issues in order to stiffle debate. It is a placebo to keep you from thinking further. In keeping one from thinking further it allows ,at the same time, others to play through unchallanged. In this tack it is a default setting like this computer it automatically goes there while stiffling others.
The abortion issue became a litmus test. This is where and how I came to identify this tack. The issue years ago ..became the litmus test for any office in this land..even dog catcher. What was ones stance on abortion. It was never..were you qualified for or experienced sufficiently to handle the job...but what was your stance on abortion.
Knowing this is how one spots a "litmus test"..a counterfit even. A placebo.
To keep you debating useless points while others play through unchallanged ..and often at your expense. This is a very slick and profitable slight of hand to those who know how to use it. This is why Light and Salt are not desired for people to know. Name calling and labeling are just another tack to prevent you from seeing the Light and Salt. To keep you debating fluff...shadows and types.
This is also why these boards often take on a Jerry Springer look. Do not get caught up in this nonsense.

What is not liked in boards like this is to put Light upon this aspect of Whoredom. This will not be tolerated by those who hold the worlds positions. This is why Salt is important. They are one and the same if properly applied.

Well ..we are getting a bit off topic of the main thread on this board. My apologies for this.

Thanks,
Orangetom


[edit on 8-4-2008 by orangetom1999]



posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Its no big secret that the majority of Christians accept the Bible. It clearly identifies the behavior as sin. I believe the Bible.


...but again, that's what some people say god said

there's never actually a quote from yahweh, jesus, or the holy spirit (ok, there aren't any quotes from the holy spirit) that says homosexuality is bad.

you'd think one of the three aspects of god would have said something about it or at least said something through which you could deduce that homosexuality is sinful

and one more thing...Christians accept parts of the bible
you don't do kosher, throw those passages out

in fact, throw out all the law passages because you really don't follow those either (except the one about homosexuality, oddly enough)

you probably have no problem with women teaching or preaching (you could correct me here, but i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt), so you're going to have to throw out part of paul's stuff there

you don't believe the world goes round the sun, throw that out

i'm not sure if you're a creationist, but i'm quite sure that the majority of christians disagree with the bible there, so throw out a literal interpretation of genesis 1 and 2

most christians don't believe in the global flood, throw out noah's story

need i go on?

oh, and ...um..which account of the life of jesus do you accept?
cause there are kind of four somewhat contradictory accounts...


How is continuing this discussion of homosexuality pertain to this topic anyway? I really don't have any thing left to say. You guys have proven the point for us.


so, let me get this straight

we're ready and willing to call you out on your protected prejudice

so

that means we're conspiring against you and oppressing you

...i'm missing how that makes sense.



posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 03:37 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
[
...but again, that's what some people say god said

there's never actually a quote from yahweh, jesus, or the holy spirit (ok, there aren't any quotes from the holy spirit) that says homosexuality is bad.



Oh yes God did say!

Madd I can't help you in your disbelief. The Bible teaches that you are under a strong delusion. I can not break that for you - only God can. I will pray for you. I just did, sincerely. The entire Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit. So he wrote every word of it.



you'd think one of the three aspects of god would have said something about it or at least said something through which you could deduce that homosexuality is sinful



God himself writing through his spirit covers it in multiple places New and Old Testament... you just ignore it. It's easy enough so I'll waste a few seconds...
Romans 1


26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.




and one more thing...Christians accept parts of the bible
you don't do kosher, throw those passages out

in fact, throw out all the law passages because you really don't follow those either (except the one about homosexuality, oddly enough)

you probably have no problem with women teaching or preaching (you could correct me here, but i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt), so you're going to have to throw out part of paul's stuff there



Only watered down liberalized Christians. Ones who have fallen for the badgering of the world. We are to be in the world but not of the world.
At my church we follow the Bible and women can only teach other women.




you don't believe the world goes round the sun, throw that out

i'm not sure if you're a creationist, but i'm quite sure that the majority of christians disagree with the bible there, so throw out a literal interpretation of genesis 1 and 2


Bible does not say the world goes around the sun.

Genesis 1 was written in ancient Hebrew by ancient Hebrews, unfortunately not many people understand in its correct context. It is about the preparation of the Garden for man.




most christians don't believe in the global flood, throw out noah's story



All the ones I know do believe it.




need i go on?



If you want to continue to embarrass yourself; then be my guest.




oh, and ...um..which account of the life of jesus do you accept?
cause there are kind of four somewhat contradictory accounts...



That's just a lie. When four different people give an account of a historical event there are alway small inconsistencies , this actually shows the validity of the testimony... had it been fabricated it would be perfectly congruent.



so, let me get this straight we're ready and willing to call you out on your protected prejudice so that means we're conspiring against you and oppressing you

...i'm missing how that makes sense.



I have posted it three times.The point you keep proving is this one:

Originally posted by conspiriology
Your words tell me NOT only is the conspiracy walking and living among us, but when the days come that accusing a sinner takes more risk for ridicule than the risk of shame for the one committing it.


You just proved it again... Thanks Madd.

Bottom line is what orangetom said, any sex outside of marriage between a man and woman is whoredom. So homosexuals are nothing special except when they try to justify it. People should not be defined by sex anyway.



posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by toasted
 


I would wager it only sounds like a reasonable expectation to Christians. After all, when you are indoctrinated into the believe that the entire world is out to get you, that the other religions or lack of religions of the world are subhuman beings with malicious intent (See Orange Tom's description of non-believers as "wildlife") who need to be exterminated or subsumed for the good of the "real" human beings, starting with the Jews who will be slaughtered en masse by a sword-tongued, fire-eyed, golden-footed Jesus who will then cast their bodies and souls into a flaming pit of filth to wail and gnash their teeth for eternity, then yes, I suppose that the thought that other religions plan the same for you is pretty reasonable.

I find it sad that otherwise rational human beings swallow this swill, and do so willingly, and then eagerly press it onto their children. Of course, I suppose it's better than what many Christians end up pressing into their children, but that's a topic for another time.



posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 04:39 PM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Oh yes God did say!


i never thought i'd be asking this question but: book, chapter, verse
give me the quote



Madd I can't help you in your disbelief.


that's good, because it's not something i need help with.



The Bible teaches that you are under a strong delusion.


and yet, when i say that christians hold some delusions, i'm intolerant...
hmm



I can not break that for you - only God can. I will pray for you. I just did, sincerely. The entire Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit. So he wrote every word of it.


...inspired and "wrote" are two different things

and then you're just begging the question, which books did god really inspire?

john milton claimed that the holy spirit inspired his writing of paradise lost

in fact, i'd actually be more inclined to believe that milton's brilliant poetry is divinely inspired than the...well, downright shoddy writing of many of the books of the bible

why wouldn't god get ol bill shakespeare to write instead of paul? seriously, you'd expect him to at least get someone who had half a clue about writing...

anyway, i digress. you can't really prove which books were and weren't inspired and which parts were where people were just inserting their own biases.




God himself writing through his spirit covers it in multiple places New and Old Testament... you just ignore it.


first you said he inspired it and now he wrote it himself?

i'm just saying, if the point was important, you'd think that jesus would have made at least an allusion to it



It's easy enough so I'll waste a few seconds...
Romans 1


paul




Only watered down liberalized Christians. Ones who have fallen for the badgering of the world. We are to be in the world but not of the world.
At my church we follow the Bible and women can only teach other women.


alright
i didn't realize i was dealing with a sexist in the vein of paul

please, tell me why this makes sense. i really don't understand
and no, i don't want "because it's in the bible"




Bible does not say the world goes around the sun.


it actively states that the sun is moving around the earth

it also says that the sun stopped in the sky. not that the earth stopped rotating on its axis



Genesis 1 was written in ancient Hebrew by ancient Hebrews, unfortunately not many people understand in its correct context. It is about the preparation of the Garden for man.


...the old testament was written in ancient hebrew by ancient hebrews for ancient hebrews.

so i'm taking you have no problem with evolutionary theory?



All the ones I know do believe it.


that's not a good way to describe "most"
most is a statistic pertaining to a group much larger than those you know.

in fact, even among those that believed a flood happened, there's division over whether it was global or local.



If you want to continue to embarrass yourself; then be my guest.


come on, stop the nastiness.

...and i'm not the one that just openly admitted to sexism...



That's just a lie. When four different people give an account of a historical event there are alway small inconsistencies , this actually shows the validity of the testimony... had it been fabricated it would be perfectly congruent.


doublethink much?
i'm not talking "small inconsistencies"
i'm talking: the man's last words
his
last
words
seriously, i think those would be one of the most important things to commit to memory
they aren't even vaguely similar last words

and did judas kill himself by hanging, explode in a field, or fall off a cliff?




I have posted it three times.The point you keep proving is this one:

Originally posted by conspiriology
Your words tell me NOT only is the conspiracy walking and living among us, but when the days come that accusing a sinner takes more risk for ridicule than the risk of shame for the one committing it.


You just proved it again... Thanks Madd.


alright, you're being a sexist and i (and many christians) will call you out for it

a conspiracy that does not make.

a woman teaching men isn't a sin
a man loving another man because he was born that way isn't a sin



Bottom line is what orangetom said, any sex outside of marriage between a man and woman is whoredom.


unless you're abraham.



So homosexuals are nothing special except when they try to justify it.


then let them get married
you're forcing them into a lifestyle of unmarried sex if you don't allow them to marry

entrapment much?



People should not be defined by sex anyway.


homosexuals tend not to be. in fact, most people don't even bring up their sexuality after a few weeks of them being "out" unless they've got a specific problem with homsexuality.
example: my friend chris. he is defined not by his love for men, but by his immense passion for politics and media, kind heart, and charitable acts.



posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 05:08 PM
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Sorry, I've got to chirp in here.

I honestly fail to see what homosexuality has to do with any real or imaginary Atheist conspiracy to "overthrow" Christianity.
Surely it should be a thread in itself??

As for a conspiracy?
Nah, no-one has come up with any evidence at all.

Yes there are a few Atheist organisations who seem to want to discredit religion as a whole, I wouldn't say they specifically target Christianity, but if Christianity is the majority religion in countries / areas where these organisations are based then they would naturally focus in on Christianity.
Pretty obvious to me.

Sorry to burst anyone's bubble but I know a hell of a lot of Atheist's and to be honest, none of them have even the slightest awareness of any Atheist organisation's and they really couldn't give a toss about religion.

However, I live in the UK and religion and spirituality is viewed somewhat differently over here.
When Tony Bliar, (intentional spelling mistake!), was PM he was advised to play down his religious beliefs for fear of being percieved to be a religious freak and crank.

[edit on 8/4/08 by Freeborn]



posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 05:14 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


I believe the whole bible is inspired by God. So he effectively wrote it all. You are incapable of comprehending it because of your rebellion. It's not worth my time addressing you. I believe man is an image bearer of God. You believe man is the pinnacle of achievement. Hence your opinions are above God.

I believe you are wrong.

Good luck.



posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 05:44 PM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
I believe the whole bible is inspired by God. So he effectively wrote it all.


again, you're begging the question. you're not answering what the criteria is for something to be inspired by god.



You are incapable of comprehending it because of your rebellion. It's not worth my time addressing you.


no, i do understand it. i understand what you mean, but i don't understand how one goes about determining what is and what isn't inspired by god.

and so much for the conspiracy against christians by atheists

maybe we should be consider an alternative to this conspiracy



I believe man is an image bearer of God. You believe man is the pinnacle of achievement. Hence your opinions are above God.


no, i don't
but i do believe that is a straw man.
i believe that humanity is simply the height of intellectual development on this planet...so far.

and i do not even consider "god" in where my opinions stand



I believe you are wrong.


well, i know that you'd be well within your rights to believe that if the straw man was what i believed, but it isn't.



Good luck.


in my experience there is no such thing as luck

may the force be with you




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