Hello...Atheist here.

I am not trying to overthrow anything.

I see that there are many people who disagree, for many reasons. They seem to want to viciously force their 'humble' views on many other people.

We all disagree. But we can agree that each of us is given one life. There are many things about this reality that we don't initially understand. Some of it we really don't need to. Other things, not so much, but the curiosity gets to us.

(all of us)

This is what it boils down to in my book: Religion was created as a way to not only organize people, but to consolidate well mening social ideas. It got way out of hand because people got used to being lead by the hand, imo.

And I don't want to be lead. I don't want people to tell or yell at me what to think and how to feel and what to do when I clearly have others best interests in the forefront of my mind concerning many if not all my actions.

So worshiping a Jeseus, a god, a politician, a celebrity, a golden calf or even my parents is counterproductive to me being able to look at the world and experience with the curiosity and awe of one who is apart of it.

Christianity has some good guidelines. But a repetitious weekly sermon on morality...is boring! I never learned about the power of dreaming while I was in church. Not once! They were indirectly associated with visions, the like of which could never conceivably happen to a guy like me and teh people in my family. I never once learned how to talk to people in church, rather I was implored to only interact with those in the same religion...and they all repeated those boring morality lessons and inane(to me) sociual gossips of the very same people I found boring and unsatisfactory.

I have never heard of a conspiracy of Atheists to overthrow Christianity....but I have always been bothered by some Christians who feel the need to overthrow my genuine interest and curiosity of the world around me.

In my opinion...how dare they suggest that someone gets my life....they already have theirs. Let me have mine.

Originally posted by riley
Yet you also started a thread deliberately insulting and persecuting a specific group of people.

Questioning science is persecution?

But let's not get off on bunny trails. My point still stands. I'm a person. Not a religion.

Blessed are the peacemakers.

'A wise man judges all things' (including science).
'Come, let us reason together' (and realize that humanity from bacteria makes no sense).
'Do not follow the teachings of false science.'
'The day will come when man willingly forgets God created the heavens and the earth.'

I can quote the Bible too.



Now please, Riley. Get over your persecution complex. You follow us around from multiple threads accusing us of making it personal when it really isn't.

I have a problem with the flaws of evolution. Not you. I don't even know you.

Originally posted by AshleyD
'A wise man judges all things'

Suddenly the 'judge not lest ye be judged' you mentioned is replaced at your convenience.

Now please, Riley. Get over your persecution complex.

Persecution complex? Nice try but you are guilty of persecuting an entire group of people ..blaming the victim isn't very original nor does it make you seem innocent. You complained about others giving christianity a bad rep but you put down others at every opportunity and when you disrepect people you blame them for it. Thats not christianty.. thats hypocricy. Quit passing the buck and own your own behaviour.

You follow us around from multiple threads accusing us of making it personal when it really isn't.

Not following you specifically.. only threads that are blatently attacking groups of people without provocation. It's not my fault if you are part of the same mob.

I have a problem with the flaws of evolution. Not you. I don't even know you.

No. You have a problem with evolutionists.. not evolution itself. You were pretty clear on that front in your OP. If you have a problem with people being insulted by it.. maybe you should reconsider how you speak to them in future? the 'your just too sensitive' defence is a copout.

[edit on 8-3-2008 by riley]

"Professing to be wise, they became fools...therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever, Amen. ...And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil mindedness. Who knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them." Taken from Romans, Chapter l.



[edit on 3/8/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by riley
Suddenly the 'judge not lest ye be judged' you mentioned is replaced at your convenience.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Do not judge the 'individual' but judge the 'thing.' Pretty simple.

Nice try but you are guilty of persecuting an entire group of people.

So much for the claim 'evolution is a science opened to criticism.'

Not following you specifically.. only threads that are blatently attacking groups of people without provocation. It's not my fault if you are part of the same mob.

How is Sizzle's thread attacking anyone, Riley? She brought up a conspiracy theory. She's not even saying all atheists are behind it just like one might say not every government employee under the sun was behind 9/11. Do you have any idea how many conspiracy theories regarding Christianity get posted here? It goes back to the group, not the people.

No. You have a problem with evolutionists.. not evolution itself. You were pretty clear on that front in your OP. If you have a problem with people being insulted by it.. maybe you should reconsider how you speak to them in future? the 'your just too sensitive' defence is a copout.

I have a problem with the gaping holes in evolution and the condescending tone of evolutionists who treat everyone who questions the gaping holes as being a 'liar for Jesus' or 'crackpot creationist.' I'm still not following you and, yes, you are being overly sensitive IMO.

Originally posted by AshleyD
I have a problem with the gaping holes in evolution and the condescending tone of evolutionists who treat everyone who questions the gaping holes as being a 'liar for Jesus' or 'crackpot creationist.' I'm still not following you and, yes, you are being overly sensitive IMO.

But, of course, your thread was somewhat a weak attempt to denigrate a group of people (i.e., 'evolutionists' - heh, I hate that word, I suppose there should also such a thing as 'atomicists'). Not that it bothered me, as it's just an erroneous claim, and where there's muck there's brass.

Anyway, that was an aside. I use the term 'liar for jesus' quite often. And it has good uses. I don't think that anyone who questions evolution is a liar for jesus. Many of this sort of person doesn't even understand the theory or know of its evidence, and they are, therefore, open to the misleading rhetoric of certain people.

There are people who, IMO, can sit happily with the L4J label (e.g., Hovind, Jonathan Wells, Billie Dembski, Ken Ham, Casey Luskin, and many of the other of the creationistas). These people are liars. Why do they do it? Well, maybe a bit of money - as people buy their books and stuff to spread around churches etc - but mainly to sustain the fundamentalist position.

The problem is that the people who digest and regurgitate their lies don't even know they are lying, it's just ignorance (and, again, ash, I just mean they don't have an understanding of particular issues, rather than being fools).

So, in many threads, someone posts some lies taken from one of these creationist sites thinking 'ha! Take that evilutionists', and I just roflcopter - most are easily refuted. We have "Ha! no beneficial mutations"; "Ha! no transitionals"; 'Ha! no increasing genetic information"; 'it's just a bird!' etc, repeated ad nauseum.

In the main, they are the american evangelistic fundamentalists who do this. Probably some are homeschooled, others might never have even had any school lessons on evolution. All would have been well-exposed to the lies of these people in church and at home.

Now, you don't see the likes of Dawkins and Miller regurgitating well-known incorrect information, like Piltdown etc, to bolster evolutionary theory. But we do see such sophistry to bolster faith. If 'evolutionists' were gullible, we would just believe the words of someone like Dawkins, even in the face of their readily uncovered repeated misleading claims.

So, the people who do this are liars. They have been told how they are incorrect. And they carry-on. If I said that John 3:16 said 'the only way to heaven was to go forth and poke people in the eyes', and you corrected me, but I repeatedly spouted such rubbish. You could justifiably call me a liar.

And I'll justifiably do the same for people who have a problem with honesty when it comes to science.

[edit on 8-3-2008 by melatonin]

Originally posted by AshleyD
How is Sizzle's thread attacking anyone, Riley? She brought up a conspiracy theory. She's not even saying all atheists are behind it just like one might say not every government employee under the sun was behind 9/11.

Already explained that one repetively.. but [again] she falsely accused all evolutionists of conspiring against christianity.. and she actually did at one point say all atheists [including buddhists] are behind it. She apologised for this.. this showed she was willing to accept responsibilty for her own prejudices and try curb them. I really repect that.

I have a problem with the gaping holes in evolution and the condescending tone of evolutionists who treat everyone who questions the gaping holes as being a 'liar for Jesus' or 'crackpot creationist.' I'm still not following you and, yes, you are being overly sensitive IMO.

Interesting. You've now accused all 'evolutionists' of persecuting you.
Claiming you are merely having a go at the science doesn't change the fact that you called the people themselves ALL gullible.. and have now accused us of picking on you.

Your rules:
"Evolutionists are all gullible."

"Creationists are all crackpots"

do you see the hypocricy? yet you still accuse me of being oversensitive. does that mean it only counts when creationists are insulted..? Nice sidestep.
If you recall the only reason we're discussing your behaviour [the other thread] is because you tried to correct me and say christianity is against persecution even though you practice it. Either christianity is not against persecution or some of you guys are just not christian.

[edit on 8-3-2008 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
Interesting. You've now accused all 'evolutionists' of persecuting you.

Er. No I didn't. Go back and reread what you quoted. Emphasis on the word 'who' as in the ones 'who' do such things. But I still wouldn't call it 'persecution.' That's way too dramatic.

Claiming you are merely having a go at the science doesn't change the fact that you called the people themselves ALL gullible.. and have now accused us of picking on you.

Sorry if my opinion offends you but it is still my opinion.

do you see the hypocricy? yet you still accuse me of being oversensitive. does that mean it only counts when creationists are insulted..? Nice sidestep.

Er... yes. I do see a difference, Riley. Me calling someone 'gullible' on a message board where everyone is sharing our opinion is a lot different when the insults given to creationists are in the media, published works, and scientific fields. I would hardly say the opinion of one insignificant person on an internet forum is going to even everything out.

Would it calm you down if the title was changed? Trust me, I have something better in mind. The title was an afterthought- not part of the original when it started out as a comment on this thread.

If you recall the only reason we're discussing your behaviour [the other thread] is because you tried to correct me and say christianity is against persecution even though you practice it. Either christianity is not against persecution or some of you guys are just not christian.

But who am I? A person. Again, not a religious movement.

Take care Riley. You're making my head hurt.

Originally posted by Conspiriology
You say you aren't a religion although case law says you are.

if atheism is a religion, bald is a hair color and not collecting stamps is a hobby...

Atheists use evolution as a tool to disprove a creator, your side of the issue?

actually, we don't. evolution doesn't even tackle the issue of a creator

You mock, disparage, insult, make fun of the tenets of Christianity

actually, we just simply point out that they're not plausible and highly irrational...
and we do so with pretty much every religion, but you get different focuses in different areas.
in india, atheists point out the problems with hinduism, because it's the majority
in the west, it's christianity that we look at.

while saying you "let" people hear your side of the issue when the truth is NO ONE ASKED, but you IMPOSE your HAVING issues on us, yet we get accused of "shoving" "forcing" our belief on you.

and you chose to listen and read...
it's not imposing when an atheist puts a post on a forum. you can ignore us.
but when a christian puts the 10 commandments up in a courthouse, it's a different story.

No, the point IS just that, to mock, make fun of, ridicule, insult etc. Then If a Christian gets ticked off about it you remind them of how "Un Christian" their behavior is while you act as rude and beligerent as you can possibly get away with.

can you actually show an example of us making fun of anything? or being insulting?

You say Atheism is a religion like NOT collecting stamps is a Hobby and that would work if Atheism wasn't a religion BUT IT IS.

wow...your argument is "but it is"

saying Moses was on drugs is "just up for discussion" perhaps we should start creating threads about Darwin having issues with his father, or that he was an alcoholic "just for discussion" Maybe we ought to have the ACLU sue Atheists for not recognizing

someone posted a thread about a story in the news. someone who isn't even an avowed atheist...
and you accused atheists of making an attack.
your accusation was misplaced.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

if atheism is a religion, bald is a hair color and not collecting stamps is a hobby...

Ya know I am so sick of Atheists semantics, circumlocutions double speak; I am beginning to wonder if THEY even know what they are talking about.

Let’s just entertain the clever quip regarding stamp collecting shall we?

Maybe then, you'll see Atheists acting as religious as they are a Hobbyist when NOT collecting stamps.

If it were stamp collecting Hobbyists Atheism had issues with, NO ONE would be more determined NOT to collect them, then Atheists.

I am also certain we would never hear the end of how you DON'T collect stamps and that Hobbyists are pushing their hobby on their kids which is child abuse while you ridicule those Hobbyists that do.

Then we would see Atheists in the form of "A-hobbyists" enlisting the service of the ACLU to sue the U.S. Postal Service because you are offended by the stamps on letters.

People would say, they have a right to use and collect stamps as a hobby.

Atheists or A-hobbyists would say "well what about those of us that don't have a hobby?" "Don't we have a say?" Hobbyists would say " Ya don't like stamps,, then don't collect em!" That wouldn't be good enough though,, A-hobbyists would want separation from post office and state.

A-Hobbyists would make Stamp Collectors and their Hobby, the center of their world because they just don't have any interest in stamp collecting, OR any hobby what so ever, and that's why they are so uninvolved in Stamp collecting. They read everything about it and in many cases know more then avid collectors.

They read all the ways to debate hobbyists and gather data about all the tragic experiences people have had to endure licking stamps and that god aweful tasting glue.

Any dirt on Hobbyism is more cannon fodder for the hobby they don't have, and don't have any interest in.

But why do they do it?

Why you ask??

Because they DON'T collect stamps ya Goof!!
I mean jeez Common Sense tells you that.

Anytime a new commemorative Stamp would come out,, A-hobbyists would be there to tell everyone it was a design stolen from a pagan stamp from the Wicca stamp collector’s guild. The A-hobbyists would be so uninvolved in a hobby, they would write best selling books about how to NOT collect stamps with titles like, "The Stamp Stigma" an A-hobbyists look at the social and political stigma of Hobbyism. Or "The Hobb Delusion" and "Stamps are not great" et-cetera et-cetera et-tedious cetera

Then they would start busting into Hobby threads to invoke their superior knowledge of stamps acting as general know it all's about the hobby they don't have. They would put up many websites making fun of dumb stamp collectors and their idiotic Hobby, and sell tee shirts proclaiming they "DO NOT HAVE A HOBBY!" Eventually they would hate all Hobbies but mostly that damn stamp collecting hobby!

They would challenge stamp collectors world view by spouting many contradictions in the stamp collectors bible telling people they are silly hobbyists. Then later A-Hobbyists would say the inventor of stamps never existed, asking for DNA proof that he was ever alive.

Then the Stamp Collecting Hobbyists would finally get pissed off at these nut cases and get a clue that doing all this crap A-Hobbyists do, is in fact,,


THEIR FREAKIN HOBBY!


Then the Hobbyists would call A-hobbyism, a Hobby.

You would say "if A-Hobbyism is a Hobby,

then NOT believing in GOD is a Religion!”


And we would have to agree, as the story reminds us just how Atheists act the same way doing the same kind of crap and that NOT believing in God,,,


IS THEIR FREAKIN RELIGION.


More then that are the three reasons given below:

1 - There are some atheists that claim that atheism is a religion.
2 - The US government has ruled that atheism is legally a religion .
3 - Buddhism has been considered a religion for some 2,500 years and is atheistic

actually, we don't. evolution doesn't even tackle the issue of a creator

AS IF

actually, we just simply point out that they're not plausible and highly irrational...and we do so with pretty much every religion, but you get different focuses in different areas.

I think arguing with people that believe in fairytales is extremely irrational and can't find a plausible excuse for doing so no more then I can in being so determined NOT to collect Stamps or so passionately determined NOT believe in God.

By the way,,, Christianity is PERFECTLY Plausible.

in the west, its Christianity that we look at.

Not "look at", Ridicule, is more like it.

but when a Christian puts the 10 commandments up in a courthouse, it's a different story.

How is THAT a different story? If you are going to site law about Church and State, then I expect you to observe laws saying Atheism is a religion REGARDLESS of whether or not it fits your "world view"

can you actually show an example of us making fun of anything? Or being insulting?

Umm YEAH Christopher Hitchins flipping the bird to the audience Bill Maher show. Telling us raising our kids and teaching the Bible is Child Abuse, Insulting our intelligence saying evolution is scientific fact.

Do you mean micro, macro, gradual, punctuated, vertical, horizontal, random, directed, cosmic, chemical, stellar, planetary, organic or what sort?” Or,, type Atheism in You tube and you'll see all kinds of smack talking Atheists, mocking us, making fun of us, ridiculing us, why it is even endorsed as the suggested way Christians should be treated by Sam Harris and Dawkins.

They say we "Deserve no better treatment then to be ridiculed" Hitchens is more crass saying "verbally bitch slapped" into better behavior.

Those two pip squeaks wouldn't treat ME that way even if they could fill a Jock Strap and get a pair of pumps high enough to stand face to face but its mighty brave of them to influence other Atheists followers to act like a punch in the face waiting to happen.

Someone posted a thread about a story in the news. Someone who isn't even an avowed atheist...
And you accused atheists of making an attack.
your accusation was misplaced.

You missed the point Madd,, it is that you take things WE find offensive such as that thread suggested, and downplay it as "a topic of discussion"

BUT GOD HELP ANYONE CALL EVOLUTION,

GULLIBLE.


- Con














[edit on 9-3-2008 by Conspiriology]

Edit double posted

[edit on 9-3-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by Conspiriology
THEIR FREAKIN HOBBY!


Then the Hobbyists would call A-hobbyism, a Hobby.

You would say "if A-Hobbyism is a Hobby,

then NOT believing in GOD is a Religion!”

...ok, your logic is sound but your argument is invalid because it makes clear a color and bald a haircolor...

And we would have to agree, as the story reminds us just how Atheists act the same way doing the same kind of crap and that NOT believing in God,,,

IS THEIR FREAKIN RELIGION.

please, keep your voice down

1 belief cannot make a religion.
atheism is literally a single statement...it cannot be a religion.
if it can make a religion, then islam, christianity, and judaism are one religion.

More then that are the three reasons given below:

1 - There are some atheists that claim that atheism is a religion.

which ones?

2 - The US government has ruled that atheism is legally a religion .

no, it's ruled that people cannot be discriminated against for not having a religion. being an atheist is given the same respect as being a hindu, christian, jew, or buddhist.

3 - Buddhism has been considered a religion for some 2,500 years and is atheistic

but buddhism is a set of beliefs on top of other things.
deism isn't theism, and it posits a god.

actually, we don't. evolution doesn't even tackle the issue of a creator

AS IF

that's your whole argument?
...note: even dawkins states that it isn't used to tackle the issue of a creator. evolution deals with everything that happens from the second life emerged. no sooner, no later.

I think arguing with people that believe in fairytales is extremely irrational and can't find a plausible excuse for doing so

if people were blowing themselves up in the fairy godmother's name or using the story of rapunzel to justify discrimination against those who don't believe it, you wouldn't find it so irrational

no more then I can in being so determined NOT to collect Stamps or so passionately determined NOT believe in God.

...this isn't about "passionately" doing anything. we don't believe in god, we find it possible that we're wrong...not very possible, but possible none the less.
we admit we might be wrong..

By the way,,, Christianity is PERFECTLY Plausible.

i've yet to see the argument for it mr. "i don't understand a theory yet blast it as a pseudo-religion without evidence"

Not "look at", Ridicule, is more like it.

the ridiculous is deserving of ridicule
if you find our lack of belief ridiculous and can logically demonstrate how so, i wouldn't have a problem with it
the problem is, you can't.
you've repeatedly shown that you can't...
and do you realize exactly how off topic this gets.?

How is THAT a different story?

courthouse vs internet...
hmm
how IS that a different story?
one is a building you must enter for government funded activities
the other is a place you can cruise selectively...

If you are going to site law about Church and State, then I expect you to observe laws saying Atheism is a religion REGARDLESS of whether or not it fits your "world view"

where does it say that atheism is a religion?

Umm YEAH Christopher Hitchins flipping the bird to the audience Bill Maher show.

um...christopher hitchens is kind of a (SNIP) ...
a very intelligent (SNIP)
but a (SNIP) nonetheless.
you get your (SNIP) in everything
i said WE. not HE. where have WE been insulting?

Telling us raising our kids and teaching the Bible is Child Abuse,

it is. see hell houses...
but that's a discussion for a different thread

Insulting our intelligence saying evolution is scientific fact.

...what's insulting is that you don't take the time to actually study it.

Or,, type Atheism in You tube and you'll see all kinds of smack talking Atheists, mocking us, making fun of us, ridiculing us,

...that's the internet. every group has those people on the internet.
just look at "fundies say the darndest things" and you'll see far, far worse

They say we "Deserve no better treatment then to be ridiculed" Hitchens is more crass saying "verbally NIP> slapped" into better behavior.

your beliefs deserve that treatment.

Those two pip squeaks wouldn't treat ME that way even if they could fill a Jock Strap and get a pair of pumps high enough to stand face to face but its mighty brave of them to influence other Atheists followers to act like a punch in the face waiting to happen.

wow mr tough guy, i'm sooooo impressed.

You missed the point Madd,, it is that you take things WE find offensive such as that thread suggested, and downplay it as "a topic of discussion"

um...it's a study. someone released it.
if you can't stand scrutiny of your beliefs, you better get some backbone.

BUT GOD HELP ANYONE CALL EVOLUTION, GULLIBLE.

again with the yelling...

yes, we have a problem with people calling evolution gullible...why? because they don't have any way of backing that statement up.
in fact, put mel from ATS against the whole collective of creationistas, and it'll be a landslide in his favor.
same goes for anyone who is properly informed.

see, we can deal with scrutiny.
evolution deals with it every day
in fact, if evolution wasn't scientifically valid, the first to say it would be a person who supported the theory.

[edit on 3/10/2008 by Cuhail]

[edit on 3/10/2008 by Cuhail]

There is a conspiracy of Atheists to get rid of Christianity, Richard Dawkins has made it very clear. He sees reason and science as having done away with God. He just needs to convince the world. "The God Delusion" ,a best seller, is his attempt to destroy faith.

The problem with science dispensing with God is that to have a scientific method or any sort of science at all you have to start with some presumptions. The major presumption of science being that the human mind is capable of deciphering and understanding the universe.

To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

(Albert Einstein's "Science and Religion")

The only reason we can presume to comprehend our environment is that the source that created the Universe also created our minds. If you dispense with God there is no reason to believe that we can comprehend reality at all. By dispensing with God science is effectively sawing off the tree limb that it is sitting on.



[edit on 3/9/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
There is a conspiracy of Atheists to get rid of Christianity, Richard Dawkins has made it very clear. He sees reason and science as having done away with God.

...done away with something he never thought was there?
no, he says they've done away with religion.

He just needs to convince the world. "The God Delusion" ,a best seller, is his attempt to destroy faith.

actually, it's his attempt to raise consciousness on issues

now, i just love it when christians quote einstein

his concept of a religion is spinoza's, it's a pantheist view
the universe itself as god
naturalistic religion...
the museum as the cathedral
his "profound faith" is that of immense awe for the universe, for the laws of physics

take his comments in the context of all that this avowed atheist has said.