Is There A Conspiracy Of Atheists To Overthrow Christianity?, page 3

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reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 08:14 AM by Nemiro

To be honest, this a discussion forum, and discussion often becomes debate, which becomes argument. This is not really the place to start a revolution (as in your OP). It's not about that. It's about a bunch of things from a bunch of people, just trying to have an intelligent conversation and learn a little (or a lot) more.

And VojVoda.... how many people did God kill?

(Not a flame, just an observation)

[edit on 16/1/08 by Nemiro]

reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 08:19 AM by jdposey

I believe somewhere in the beginning of your thread post you were looking for some kind of "unity." It is a hard thing to say and, not a pleasant one to want, but looking back at 9-11, it is something of that magnitude that brought everyone together as Americans. Maybe I am wrong, but at least, that is what I seemed to remember. And, I also seem to remember the great "influx" of people into churches at that time. It is as if, when push comes to shove, people know where to go, or, want to be.

reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 08:27 AM by melatonin

Originally posted by sizzle
Did Mr. Marshall misrepresent Einstein and his Theory of Relativity?
And yes, I will have a look at those links as well. Thanks.

Apart from attempting to make him appear just a bit more theistic than he actually was (he was a Spinozian), the science at first glance seems OK. Einstein described quanta and photons. He was no great fan of where quantum mechanics ended up, adequately described in the god don't play with dice style quote.

And when he said god, he meant the physical order of the universe, nature itself. Not some personal prayer listening bedroom watching dude.

But, anyway, it's not his description of relativity or Einstein that makes me cringe. But his misrepresentations of evolution. Marshall is the creator of the 'random mutation generator'. Ugh.

[edit on 16-1-2008 by melatonin]

reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 08:43 AM by sizzle

reply to post by pavlovsdog

Pavlovsdog,
You don't know how much I agree with you to some extent. But I am afraid that the true Christian is wearing the whole yoke for many. Cos' ya see, we have what is called Pew-sitters(not born-again, nor saved) then you have cult religions, etc. Get the picture?

reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 08:49 AM by pavlovsdog

Originally posted by sizzle
reply to post by pavlovsdog

Pavlovsdog,
You don't know how much I agree with you to some extent. But I am afraid that the true Christian is wearing the whole yoke for many. Cos' ya see, we have what is called Pew-sitters(not born-again, nor saved) then you have cult religions, etc. Get the picture?

no, I'm not sure where you are going here. I fail to see how "Pew-sitters(not born-again, nor saved)" are harmful to you And the 'cult religions' are small enough to be inconsequential in most aspects. However, it's the BIG evangelical fundamental CULT that is dangerous, as they are trying to become the majority

[edit on 16-1-2008 by pavlovsdog]

reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 08:50 AM by sizzle

Since Mr. Marshall's viewpoints have come into question, I have decided to extend him an invitation to come to ATS and answer some questions for us. Here is a copy of the letter that I sent to him:

Hello Mr. Marshall,
I really wanted to thank you for the material that I have received from you thus far. I have an active topic thread on a discussion forum, www.abovetopsecret.com .I have quoted and given credit to your work to help substantiate some of my Christian beliefs in this discussion topic.
I think that you could do a much better job of representing yourself. This way you could answer any questions that may come up. If you agree, I will open a new thread and introduce you, so that the entirety of ATS, can be notified and participate in the discussion. I don't know if you are familiar with the ATS website, but it holds international notoriety. Below I will include some info, FYI taken from www.abovetopsecret.com...

The Basics
AboveTopSecret.com is the Internet's largest and most popular discussion board community dedicated to the intelligent exchange of ideas and debate on a wide range of "alternative topics" such as conspiracies, UFO's, paranormal, secret societies, political scandals, new world order, terrorism, and dozens of related topics with an impressive demographic mix of members.
With 128,051members generating 3,790,102 posts of substance (minimal contributions are not allowed) that cover 313,449 topics in different 156 discussion forums, you could say "the truth is in here."
And new content, new ideas, new speculation, and new theories are being generating at an astounding pace with 504 members creating 22,787 new posts during the past seven days. Also, in that same time span, we welcomed 504new members and enjoyed visits from 4,603 registered members as well as 418,873 guests.
The simple yet effective motto of our membership is Deny Ignorance!, which signifies an effort to apply the principals of critical thought and peer review to the provocative topics covered within.
And with a highly professional staff of 56 dedicated people, AboveTopSecret.com is renowned for enabling the discussion of nearly anything while insisting on polite civility and respectful decorum.

I would really appreciate it, and so would the many members of ATS, if you would join us, and discuss your viewpoints and findings with us. Thank you so very sincerely, on behalf of myself and the abovetopsecret website.

reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 08:59 AM by sizzle

reply to post by pavlovsdog

They are the very ones that generally give all of Christianity a bad name. If they are not born-again or saved (whichever terminology you prefer) you can't very well understand the things of God, nor lead a Spirit-filled life. The Bible itself tells you that you cannot understand the things of God with the carnal mind. And until you are spiritually re-born; that is what you have is a carnal mind.
I know this, because I went through this personally. Before this event in my life, the Bible made no sense. Whereas before, I only knew ABOUT God, now I know God. Hope you understand that.

reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 09:12 AM by pavlovsdog

Originally posted by sizzle
reply to post by pavlovsdog

If they are not born-again or saved (whichever terminology you prefer) you can't very well understand the things of God, nor lead a Spirit-filled life.

And here comes the confusion. What you are describing is the EVANGELICAL movement. Of which fundamentalism is a subset.

You complain that it is the non evangelicals who are 'the problem' after agreeing with my earlier post which noted many of the the problems with the evangelical movement.

reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 09:13 AM by riley

reply to post by sizzle

Just because someone is an atheist does not mean they cannot be spiritual or understand it.. thats presumptious. I myself am an atheist and a buddhist/wicken [I believe we are all connected] ..and I have had paranormal experiences.. however that does not prove that there is a guy in the sky pulling the strings making things happen. To me it merely suggests there is more to reality than what we are able to percieve and my spirituality is my awareness of it.. like not being able to see the entire colour spectrum. Just because electricity makes my computer work doesn't mean it's magic.

[edit on 16-1-2008 by riley]

reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 09:24 AM by sizzle

Originally posted by pavlovsdog

Originally posted by sizzle
reply to post by pavlovsdog

If they are not born-again or saved (whichever terminology you prefer) you can't very well understand the things of God, nor lead a Spirit-filled life.

And here comes the confusion. What you are describing is the EVANGELICAL movement. Of which fundamentalism is a subset.

You complain that it is the non evangelicals who are 'the problem' after agreeing with my earlier post which noted many of the the problems with the evangelical movement.

I am not talking about a 'Movement of any kind. I am talking about a personal experience that each born-again believer experiences when they follow the instructions of John 3:16. The emphasis being on. 'believe' in your heart.

reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 09:25 AM by hildar

Let me put it to you this way, I believe in God, and the Bible, but no one should push me into going to any church. That is my choice to make. I have tried 4 churches and all I disagreed with for some reason or another. Yet I am not an Atheist. But I dont want one pushing there beliefs on me either. So all in all I will believe what I want to and tell the others they can go to Hello.

My advice is just ignore the links.

Hilda

reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 09:28 AM by sizzle

Originally posted by riley
reply to post by sizzle

Just because someone is an atheist does not mean they cannot be spiritual or understand it.. thats presumptious. I myself am an atheist and a buddhist/wicken [I believe we are all connected] ..and I have had paranormal experiences.. however that does not prove that there is a guy in the sky pulling the strings making things happen. To me it merely suggests there is more to reality than what we are able to percieve and my spirituality is my awareness of it.. like not being able to see the entire colour spectrum. Just because electricity makes my computer work doesn't mean it's magic.

[edit on 16-1-2008 by riley]

I don't recall making a statement that specified that. There are all types of spirits. The Spirit that I am speaking of, and I generally try to remember to capitalize; is the Holy Spirit.

reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 09:43 AM by melatonin

Originally posted by sizzle
Since Mr. Marshall's viewpoints have come into question, I have decided to extend him an invitation to come to ATS and answer some questions for us. Here is a copy of the letter that I sent to him:

Oh great...

Just what this forum needs. Perry Marshall with his bad logic and misrepresentations of evolution.

There's no point discussing with him. He just spouts his load, ignores responses, and claims victory. A la the infidels forum. Actually, saying that, he might just fit in here.

reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 09:48 AM by sizzle

reply to post by melatonin

Don't give up so easily.
It might be fun. Then again, he might not even accept the invitation. I saw where he went on an atheist website discussion forum and was treated very rudely from the get-go. So maybe he won't be interested in history repeating itself.

reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 09:57 AM by runetang

well this isnt an atheist forum, it's a conspiracy forum.

you have people of all kinds, races, religions, nationalities, political affiliations, jobs, students, etc.

so maybe he would be more likely to accept, lol. i dont even know who this guy is, never heard of him, but if atheists hate him on principle that at least earns him my ear for a short but unbiased amount of time to see what he has to say.

reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 10:02 AM by sizzle

reply to post by runetang

That's exactly why I gave him the Basics and website stats from The ATS STAT page. LOL! I didn't want the guy scared off too badly before he even got here.

reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 10:03 AM by melatonin

Originally posted by sizzle
So maybe he won't be interested in history repeating itself.

And neither am I.

I'm sorry, his challenges to evolution reek of misrepresentation. I know his MO and have little motivation to even bother with this guy. He'll post a load of tripe, ignore people pointing out his fallacies, then claim victory on his website.

Been there, seen it, done that. His reputation precedes him all over freethinking/atheist and evolution/science boards.

reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 10:06 AM by sizzle

For those of you who are not familiar with Perry Marshall or his work, here is an excerpt an a link to get you started:

: Asking "Where did God come from" is a lot like reading a John Grisham novel and saying "This book has lawyers and judges and secretaries, but what page is John Grisham on?"

The answer of course, is that John Grisham is not in the novel at all. He lives outside of the novel. He wrote it. He created the time line, the story and the characters. The novel is a book with a finite number of pages, a beginning and an end. But John Grisham lives a life that extends far beyond that book.

Similarly, God lives outside of space and time. He created space. He created time. He is confined to neither of these things. It's somewhat of a stretch for most of us to imagine that, but a physicist or mathematician will attest that it's entirely reasonable. There is nothing absurd or illogical to speak of dimensions outside of space and time; in fact additional dimensions are necessary to rationally explain the universe. String theory in modern physics defines 11 dimensions, four of which we experience.

www.cosmicfingerprints.com...

reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 10:11 AM by pavlovsdog

Originally posted by sizzle
reply to post by pavlovsdog

I am not talking about a 'Movement of any kind. I am talking about a personal experience that each born-again believer experiences when they follow the instructions of John 3:16. The emphasis being on. 'believe' in your heart.

Yes, Sizzle - you are talking about a Movement. Evangelicalism is a movement that centers on the need for a 'born again' experience. This is a relatively new belief system in Christanity.

From wikipedia:
The characteristics of Evangelicalism as defined by David Bebbington, in his study of British evangelicalism, are known as the Bebbington Quadrilateral, [1], the four characteristics of evangelicals are :

1. Conversionism - Emphasis on the conversion experience, also called being saved, or new birth or born again after John 3:3. Thus evangelicals often refer to themselves as born-again Christians. This experience is said to be received by "faith alone" and to be given by God as the result of "grace alone".
2. Biblicism - The Protestant canon of the Bible, as God's revelation to humanity, is the primary source of religious authority. Thus, the doctrine of sola scriptura is often emphasized. Bible prophecy, especially as interpreted according to dispensationalism, is often emphasized as well.
3. Activism - Encouragement of evangelism—the act of persuading others of one's beliefs—in organized missionary work or by personal encounters and relationships with others.
4. Crucicentrism - A central focus on Christ's redeeming work on the cross as the only means for salvation and the forgiveness of sins.

If you are worried about 'Christians' who are not 'born again' YOU, my dear are an EVANGELIST.

And I'm going out on a limb and guess that when you read the above 4 bullets that your mind automatically thinks ' thats not evangelism, thats Christanity'

[edit on 16-1-2008 by pavlovsdog]

[edit on 16-1-2008 by pavlovsdog]

reply posted on 16-1-2008 @ 10:16 AM by sizzle

reply to post by melatonin

I think that we might have to disagree just a tad on his behavior on the atheist website. I went to that site and read it for myself. I saw that he answered many that disagreed with him. Geez, everyone on that board disagreed with him. The ones that he chose not to respond to seemed to either be the rudest, or have the most irrelevant questions.
They had the frying pan warmed up for that guy before he even got there.