Is There A Conspiracy Of Atheists To Overthrow Christianity?

Originally posted by melatonin

Nope,, and nothing ever will be,, for that,,

You gotta have faith.

heh - Con

Not in the way you gotta have it.
We do rely on verifiable evidence, not fuzzy feelings and wishful-thinking.

I challenge that the faith of the Bible is NOT believing in things that are not understood or understandable, True faith is, rather, rooted in understanding, albeit enlightened understanding.

There is no contradiction between the operation of faith and the operation of reason or logic. faith is an essential ingredient of salvation, so this is no trivial subject. The Scriptures say that we are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8) and that it is impossible to please God without faith (Heb 11:6).

But what is faith? Or, more to the point, what if an individual seeking to find grace is given a false perception of what faith is?

artificial substitutes for faith or anything else are unacceptable to the one, true God.

Philip asked this man who was reading the book of Isaiah, “Do you understand what you are reading?” and the man answered, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?”

After all, all you have to do is have faith You don’t have to understand, you just have to believe, or so the story goes.

This scenario is typical, and it presupposes an assumption that faith and reason are contrary to each other, they are not. I would agree Mel, their are many Christians that are under this assumption but that still would be the wrong assumption.

Understand that the Scriptures reveal that there are things that pertain to reality that are not discernible by the natural senses and mind, there is nothing in the Scriptures that instruct us to believe in things we don’t actually perceive on a rational level.

The Bible tells us this and is one of the reasons people like AshleyD sees words like she mentions in her post as REAL BLIND FAITH. It is the Atheists and unfortunatley many times the Christians mis-conception of Christian meaning of faith that come under false attack.

Come now, and let us REASON together, ... (Is 1:18)

Hearken unto me every one of you, and UNDERSTAND... (Mk 7:14)

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1Th 5:21)

...be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Ro 12:2)

And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; (Ph 1:9-10)


Clearly, it is the will of God that His people prove all things, that they understand what they believe.

This is not to say, however, that true faith is rooted purely in logic and reason, as though a man can come to a saving faith through some sort of rational process alone.

We know this is not the case at all, because the Scriptures clearly state that the natural mind is incapable of perceiving spiritual things, and we can hardly disassociate spiritual discernment from faith. I could use spiritual things are like those things you might see in science like Quantum Physics for example although that may not be the best example but I think you get the point especially when you defend those same "assumptions" as "tentative" but I see them as the same or excuses for not filling in the gaps of evolution you must believe on faith. What other word you can use for it I have no Idea.

Like it is in Christianity This is where many people miss the mark. In recognizing that the natural mind cannot discern spiritual things and that believing spiritual things is necessary for salvation, they conclude that we must, therefore, believe things we cannot see or understand in order to be saved and please God.

“the process of reasoning in which a conclusion follows necessarily from the stated premises.” The key here is that our logical conclusions are only as valid as the “stated premises” upon which they are based.

In other words, we judge according to what we know, so, therefore, if our knowledge or discernment of related factors is incorrect or incomplete, our conclusions will be flawed. This is why I stated earlier that faith is not contrary to reason, but operates from a premise of "enlightened reason."

This is the holy Ghosts work and No I do not expect you to understand that but DO understand your descriptions as "warm and fuzzy feelings" cute as they may seem to you, they are to me the understandings of the ignorant or new to the faith and are taken just as seriously.

if we also consider that our minds are capable of being enlightened to spiritual realities by the Spirit of God, we see an altogether different set of “stated premises.” We can then see that the obstruction to faith in our minds is not the process of logical deduction we naturally follow, but the fact that we do not perceive spiritual realities without the interaction of the Spirit of God revealing them to us. That my friend doesn't "feel" like anything but opens our minds and enhances our Christian belief with a spiritual intellect and new understanding.

The best definition of faith can be found by the writer of Hebrews, and here we can see very plainly the part that perception of unseen things has in faith, though we will be hard pressed to find faith represented as a belief in anything that defies our natural, God given sense of reason

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (He 11:1)


True faith doesn’t defy reason, it only correctly factors in the unseen realities that can only be perceived by the Spirit’s work in renewing our minds. True faith recognizes that the most certain thing in existence is the Word of our lord.

Example: By which the “worlds were framed...so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” (He 11:3)

Therefore, true faith logically concludes that, given a choice between judgment based upon tangible evidences and the clear Word of the Creator, the Almighty God’s Word is more reliable.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1Co 2:14)

Why is it it Mel,, Only Christians understand this and you can not?

Again, the fact that the faithful conduct themselves on a basis of enlightened reason, does not make them irrational except in the eyes of those who are not so enlightened.

It is so often the reaction of Christians who are dismissed for their belief when an Atheist uses faith as the reason the Christian with a completely differen't kind of faith then what secular faith is defined as, would say, "yeah so?"

Mel,,The Bible states this clearely

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath REVEALED them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God."

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might KNOW the things that are freely given to us of God."

"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost TEACHETH; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Mel,, When you said in your post why doesn't this GOD just introduce himself to me? I think it is hard for most Christians not laugh at such a statement and I don't mean that in a derogatory way but rather that it reminds us when WE ourselves were,, like you, without spiritual discenrmemnt for they have what Christ has given us as the Holy spirit and to explain to you that GOD DOES SPEAK to us through the Holy spirit is something all Christians can Identify with but you would only understand as a state of Schizophrenia.

The body of Christ has people who are called and anointed to teach, but we are never, ever instructed to believe anything on the basis of another’s word, no matter how impeccable their credentials are.

Paul told those he ministered to things like, “I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

It is not faith to believe that which one doesn’t understand, but it is faith to believe what one understands by virtue of the Spirit of God. Spiritual realities may supersede the laws of nature, but nowhere are spiritual realities depicted as defying reason.

That may be an Atheists problem but it isn't mine and you can disagree but you are not correct in your determination and KNOW I am unequivocally correct in mine.

Truth may exceed our natural ability to comprehend, but never goes against our God given sense of reason.

I defy YOU or anyone else who propose or presuppose such things


to justify their positions


- Con

Originally posted by DarkWanderer
AshleyD

Grow up. Are you implying that atheists are less smart than christians, just because your bias mind doesnt bother to read anything but arguments in your favour?
There are plenty of Atheist sources out there that offer proper arguements and evidence. Much more so than the bull i read supporting christianity.

Nothing to do with whether or not it's in my favor but the way it is poised. "Christianity sucks. You suck. Everyone who is a Christain sucks. Mindless sheeple. Brainwashed. Ignorant."

But to answer your questions, yes. I would have to say such comments do not display very high intelligence or critical thinking skills.

Originally posted by DarkWanderer
AshleyD

Grow up. Are you implying that atheists are less smart than christians, just because your bias mind doesnt bother to read anything but arguments in your favour?
There are plenty of Atheist sources out there that offer proper arguements and evidence. Much more so than the bull i read supporting christianity.

Of course she has a bias and she isn't talking about proper arguments and evidence. Read her post, she is talking about the less then civil posts that start out like yours insulting her maturity while at the same time expecting it to have something more mature to offer that we should even bother reading past the personal attack.

If you think what you read is Bull by immature Christians, I suggest you not bother with threads having anything to do with them, including this one.

You won't find any Christian here telling Mel to grow up and yet we disagree we realize his posts albiet have a dry sense of humor I find his post are well thought out and he is obviously very intelligent.

He has yet to show any anger or made any personal comments

You might want to go to school on him in that way

Just a suggestion.

- Con

Is there a conspiracy of Christians and atheists to nip modern paganism in the bud?

Originally posted by Conspiriology
Read her post, she is talking about the less then civil posts that start out like yours insulting her maturity while at the same time expecting it to have something more mature to offer that we should even bother reading past the personal attack.

Thanks, Con. I really don't understand what is so difficult to understand. The first following example is the type of person I have no problem with. They might be ignorant of some facts but it's what they believe. The second following example is simply a bigot.

Person One: The biggest problem I have with Christianity is that I don't think Jesus was an actual historic figure and that He was most likely based on pagan figures like Mithras and Dionysus.

Person Two: Christians are the biggest sheeple EVER!!!!!! They are so blinded by their little imaginary sky fairy that they have no clue their "GAWD" is actually taken from pagan myths. I wish all religions were wiped off the earth and would take their followers with them. Christians are retarded and live in a fantasy world and are filled with nothing but hate, ignorance, and intolerance! !!!!

See the difference? The second post will get five stars from people of like minded bigotry.

Originally posted by Conspiriology
Why is it it Mel...you can not?

Because rather than 'spiritually discerned', I'm just not 'spiritually' concerned. It would be like worrying about my chi.

Mel,, When you said in your post why doesn't this GOD just introduce himself to me?

It's not a case of me being bothered at all really. Just a case of wondering why an omnipotent supernatural creator dude needs you to do his work for him. If he's concerned about me, he knows where to find me. I don't particularly care.

The body of Christ has people who are called and anointed to teach, but we are never, ever instructed to believe anything on the basis of another’s word, no matter how impeccable their credentials are.

Aye, would be an argument from authority. Which is why arguments are best formed from evidence.

reply to post by AshleyD


I see a similarity, both true? jokes...

If you going to type stuff like that, why don't look at both sides and not just what you want to see? Some stuff you guys say are so stupid it's beyond funny . I'm sure you don't need me to give examples as it's all over the place.

Originally posted by AncientVoid
[I see a similarity, both true?

jokes...

If you going to type stuff like that, why don't look at both sides and not just what you want to see? Some stuff you guys say are so stupid it's beyond funny

. I'm sure you don't need me to give examples as it's all over the place.

The thing is, both sides say some pretty stupid and ignorant things from time to time. But it's more about how it is being said that what is actually said.

Call Christianity a fraud. No sweat off my nose. It's not going to make my God disappear into oblivion. But expect me to debate you. Fill your post with nonsense and expect me to address you like a two year old. Attack the argument not the person. If members would understand that a little bit more, these discussions might not be so migraine-inducing.

But I do see atheists throwing the first punch regularly. Just an observation. But like I said, it's not the ists, it's the ism.

[edit on 1/20/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by fooffstarr
reply to post by Nohup

 

Religions feel threatened, that their very existence is at stake...

On September 11, 2001, I thought to myself, "wow, organized religion is in serious trouble now, because this event is going to cause a lot of people to rethink religion and why we have it. The result of fundamentalism was those terrorist attacks. Sure enough before the sun set that day, church leaders sounded the emergency siren, put on their robes and began to "pray" very publically I might add, before the people even had a chance to think about it, the organized religions were out in droves with a marketing campaign unlike any other to assure the security of the belief, and the revenue stream.

Also, the religious service is almost a mass hypnosis. Under hypnosis, you'd be amazed at what you can make people believe and do.

Finally am I the only one that senses the mean spirited attacks by this woman who started this thread? Christians aren't being threatened by Atheists, it's the other way around, and it's been this way for thousands of years, or did ya-all forget all about the inquisitions, the Salem witch trials, the crusades, about how the empires of Europe were all put into place by religion and then torn apart through many wars also with the help and of your loving religion...did you also realize that in WWII the church blessed both sides before Christians went out and slaughtered one another and on and on...Give me a break lady. You started this thread to reaffirm your own beliefs, and create some more discontent in a world that already is awash in it. Rather than start these threads that don't help anyone in any way, or seem to further any philosophy your religion towts, why don't you live your faith, and volunteer your free time with a good cause to help humanity...such as a homeless shelter, an AIDS organization, a crisis line, an orphanage, a hospital, build homes for the needy, the peace corps...all your doing here is illustrating for many readers why religion sucks so bad in the first place.




[edit on 20-1-2008 by skyshow]

Originally posted by skyshow
Finally am I the only one that senses the mean spirited and hateful attacks by this woman who started this thread?

Are you delusional or just biased? Sizzle is one of the nicest and most nonconfrontational members I've seen on this board. Reread her comments. Here's a few:

"I have been involved in several very heated discussions lately, here on ATS, between Christians and Atheists. I must say that it troubles me very deeply. I have found myself lashing out at others in defense of my beliefs. This is out of character for me."

She starts the thread off by basically admitting to her own faults.

I really am so sorry that you feel that way. wish there were some way we could come to an amicable agreement.

She apologizes to someone who just said they basically wished all religions would disappear. That's pretty nice- especially for the regular atmosphere of ATS.

I apologize that it is offensive to you. And I appreciate that you are not one of the ones dragging unnecessary things into ATS topics that incite bad feelings among the members. That is not my intention either.

She apologizes again!

And those are only her first few posts. She is insanely polite and understanding, has broken fights up in this thread when they got out of hand, and has remained fare more civil than most users who have replied to this thread. You're simply a bigot against anything religious including people.

Sizzle has done nothing wrong and gets major kudos for keeping the peace.

reply to post by Conspiriology


Hey con, I don't mean any personal offense, but I am interested in why people believe the way they do and what your opinions on it are, but I am not interested in reading a dissertation on it. I don't know about other people on here, but I tend to skip the long winded post, but I will read what someone has to say if it is the "executive summery" of the thought...in other words, if it's short, say a paragraph or two, I'll read it. I particularly like the ones that are just a few sentences, but it's not always easy to condense down all you want to say in such few words. Anyway, just my opinion, and I'm not reading all of that...it's too freakin' long.

Originally posted by skyshow
inquisitions, the Salem witch trials, the crusades

All Christians on ATS who have participated in the Inquisition, Salem Witch Trials, and Crusades or who has ever killed for your faith please give a shout out. Any abortion clinic bombers in the house?

*crickets* *crickets*

Bueller? Bueller? Has anyone seen Ferris Bueller?

reply to post by AshleyD


Hey, why don't you ask Riley and Melletonin if they are delusional. I see sarcasm, extreme passive-aggressiveness with this post thread, and I also see judgemental behavior by making unsubstantiated assumptions about someones background and faith or lack there of. She may be polite, but I didn't say anything about manners. You can stick a dagger in someones back and still say "pardon me for the intrusion".

By the way have you ever considered how many hungry people could be fed, or how many in need of medical care could get some treatment if Christendom melted down the gold and silver cross idols down and used the money to help the needy? Every time I'm in a church for a wedding or a funeral, and it's one of the ones who has the idol of the bloody execution device prominently displayed and it's made of shiny gold or silver, I usually wonder about this...also the Marble. Yet, most of the holdings of the various churches are not even visible in the houses of worship. They tend to be tied up in huge portfolios managed by teams of ex-Wall Street executives.

At least the Christians can take it out online by blogging though, rather than taking up arms....even though they tend to support in mass droves the US war machine...at least I demonstrate some benefit of the doubt LOL .

reply to post by skyshow


This might shock you but I agree and have spoken out against ministers with private jets and vacation homes in the Hamptons on my website with fervor. The greed and hypocrisy is disgusting. I griped out one of my best friends the other day because we volunteer at the hospital together but she had to "drop out" because it interfered with church choir practice! Does that make any sense to you because it makes no sense to me. Christianity wasn't created so we could spend all day in church- it was supposed to get us off our butts and help people.

I get pink eye 5,000 times a year because I volunteer and get accused of things like not bringing a man a glass of water because he was black (No, it's because I was running myself ragged helping everyone at the same time and forgot) or an old lady telling me she is going to sue the hospital because she didn't like the food. Stuff like this happens almost every time I go in. It's maddening and discouraging. But there are us true Christians out there that puke at the $5 million dollar churches. You're preaching to the choir. We're not all the same.

[edit on 1/20/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by skyshow
inquisitions, the Salem witch trials, the crusades

All Christians on ATS who have participated in the Inquisition, Salem Witch Trials, and Crusades or who has ever killed for your faith please give a shout out. Any abortion clinic bombers in the house?

*crickets* *crickets*

Bueller? Bueller? Has anyone seen Ferris Bueller?

Excuse me, but the topic thread title is not "Is there a Conspiracy of Atheists to Overthrow ATS Christians". Last time I checked - right now - the ATS part was not in the title.

ok, so the derailment likely was just in good humor attempt, still, bombing abortion clinics is Christian terrorism and I don't find that at all very funny.

Finally, I am truly impressed with your thoughts regarding your last post. There are some, not many that I have known, but there are some, and if you are one who actually lives the faith and works hard to do the things in the good spirit of that believe, than you are to be commended. When it's said that you have to accept the savior in your heart to be saved, I think it's always been more than just saying the words...it's metaphorical for truly believing in the philosophy of loving one another. In that case we can also begin to love one another in the next election and the ones to come by voting for candidates who are not pro-military industrial complex, and that are for health care coverage for all from cradle to grave. We might also consider abolishing the death penalty, significantly reducing greenhouse gas emissions, and increasing funding for family planing.


[edit on 20-1-2008 by skyshow]

[edit on 20-1-2008 by skyshow]

[edit on 20-1-2008 by skyshow]

[edit on 20-1-2008 by skyshow]

Originally posted by skyshow
Excuse me, but the topic thread title is not "Is there a Conspiracy of Atheists to Overthrow ATS Christians". Last time I checked - right now - the ATS part was not in the title.

You, like almost everyone who likes to group two billion Christians into one group, brought up the Inquisition, Crusades, and Witch Trials. Not me. It's old and tired now.

What you fail to realize, as most do, is that the Inquisition and Crusades were led by a branch of Christianity- not the whole of Christianity. There is a reason why one billion Christians are not a part of the Catholic "system" today. Because we think it is just as corrupt and distorted as you do.

As to the Witch Trials: What many forget is that most of these women were never even witches. They were women who were falsely accused and many were Christians themselves. During the medieval times, true Christians were burnt at the stake for owning a Bible by that church.

But no, let's group everyone together.

[edit on 1/20/2008 by AshleyD]

reply to post by skyshow


I would also like to see a voluntary (initially) ethics review board made of community wide stakeholders to oversee all religious activities...right now big religion does just as she pleases, it would be nice if there were in place something akin to an institutional review board (IRB) at Universities that oversees all research and makes sure that it (departments faculty, graduate students , grant based research etc...) conducts research in an ethical manner that does not in any way harm the participant...people are "participants" when they go to church, and with thousands of various denominations, and the rampant corruption we see and the huge history of bloodshed and horrendous crimes all in the name of god...really it's now time more than ever for the organized religions to begin having in place ethical review boards.

[edit on 20-1-2008 by skyshow]

Originally posted by skyshow
ok, so the derailment likely was just in good humor attempt

Yes it was. It was to lighten the situation (religion is always a heavy topic) and to remind us we're all still people and it is alright to laugh with each other. Truly. None of us are going to get the holy smack down because we realize we're all just people.

reply to post by skyshow


I started a new thread on ideas of how we can regulate religion to protect our people from abuse and unethical church practices since it's a little different than a conspiracy to "overthrow" Christianity, although it may be a distant cousin...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This should stir up some good debate, and maybe if we are lucky produce some groundbreaking ideas and thought in the spirit of progress and improvement.

Originally posted by skyshow

By the way have you ever considered how many hungry people could be fed, or how many in need of medical care could get some treatment if Christendom melted down the gold and silver cross idols down and used the money to help the needy? LOL .

LOL make no mistake Skyshallow if this were moderated differen't or had a flame section, you would certainly be a star attraction im sure.

You want to compare the money given to feed the hungry and give medical care to people between Atheists and Christians be my guest

You'll lose

Your other post speaking about inquistions and killing by Christians I had already answered in this post

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Although it might be to arduous a task for you since it IS longer then the preferred few sentences you insist in your post regarding mine,

or that they are as you say

"too freakin long"

- Love Con



[edit on 21-1-2008 by Conspiriology]