Confusing the Tonopah Test Range with Area 51

This notam indicates ground zero for the GPS jamming is in the Tonopah Test Range. Plug
N37 20 23.4 w116 01 58.4
into google earth and you will see it is actually closer to Area 51. The distance to Area 51 is about 14 miles. The distance to the Tonopah Test Range is 51 miles.

GPS jammer photographs on this page. I didn't photograph their SUV, but it looks rather ordinary.
www.lazygranch.com...
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GPS IS UNRELIABLE AND MAY BE UNAVAILABLE WITHIN
A 324 NM RADIUS OF 372023.4N/1160158.4W (LOCATED WITHIN THE
TONOPAH TEST RANGE) AT FL400, DECREASING IN AREA WITH DECREASE
IN ALTITUDE TO 277 NM RADIUS AT FL250, 198 NM RADIUS AT 10,000
FT MSL AND 197 NM RADIUS AT 4,000 FT AGL. THE IMPACT AREA ALSO
EXTENDS INTO THE MEXICAN FIR. 1900Z-0845Z DLY, 15 JAN 19:00 2008 UNTIL 19 JAN
08:45 2008. CREATED: 11 JAN 19:37 2008

Interesting. Do you think it may have something to do with the Slater Lake radar sites?

reply to post by DesertWatchdog


My guess would be the jamming is related to UAV navigation.

reply to post by gariac


By how they handle it, or testing defenses against enemy jamming?

reply to post by DesertWatchdog


These GPS jamming events are very routine, but tend to be done centered in the Mojave, not the Nellis range. [At least for the southwest. I don't read notams in other areas.]

At this point, all I can do is speculate as to why they do them. I assume it is to first of all detect that jamming is being done, i.e. to know when not to trust your GPS. Second, to test the back-up systems such as inertial navigation.

I just remembered that Red Flag is happening at the moment, so this jamming could just be related to the exercise. During Red Flag, Area 51 represents a neutral country with no fly-over rights. They may have decided to do the jamming from this location since in theory no planes would be allowed to "take out" the jammer.

When I talked to the Red Owl crew, they claimed they only jammed, not spoofed. I suspect they were feeding me the proper lie.

reply to post by gariac


I see.

Whats spoofing in relation to GPS jamming?

[edit on 1/16/2008 by DesertWatchdog]

reply to post by DesertWatchdog


The Red Owl people showed hardware that simply transmitted random noise over the two GPS bands (civilian and military). Noise will interfere with your position detection, preventing the GPS to lock. They claimed that is all they do.

Spoofing is more complicated. When you spoof a signal, your intent is not to simply interfere with reception, but rather fool the user to think their GPS (or whatever) is working correctly, but in fact you are feeding them false information.

I have had one occasion where I stashed something in the desert with the intent of getting it later, using a GPS to mark the spot. Generally this works fine, but once I was off by at least 50ft. Now do I know for a fact I was getting spoofed? No. All I know is for some reason the waypoint wasn't recorded properly. And of course, these was near the Nellis range.

reply to post by gariac


Interesting stuff. Thanks.

Calm down, just typical testing during games. More info for your fancy on this month's red flag, also known as my vacation.
Red Team Air F-16C F-15C Nellis AFB, NV
Nellis AFB, NV
Blue Team Air F-22 Langley AFB, VA
Air-to-Ground B-1B
F-16F-15E A-10 Ellsworth AFB, SD
Luke AFB, AZ (Singapore)
Mountain Home AFB, ID
Nellis AFB, NV
SEAD EA-6B
EA-6B
F-16 NAS Whidbey Island, WA
Cherry Point, NC
Nellis AFB, NV
Command & Control
Reconnaissance E-3
E-2
E-8
E-3D
RC-135 Tinker AFB, OK
Norfolk, VA
Robins AFB, GA
Waddington, United Kingdom
Offutt AFB, NB
Airlift C-130 Trenton, Canada
Search & Rescue HC-130
HH-60 Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ
Moody AFB, GA
Refueling KC-135
KC-135
KC-135 Robins AFB, GA
MacDill AFB, FL
Milwaukee, WI

reply to post by no_one817


I don't believe anyone here is jumping up and down on Oprah's couch, so we are calm and collected.

Your secret information is merely a Nellis link:
www.nellis.af.mil...

I am familiar with Red Flag:
www.lazygranch.com...

Did I ever claim this was top secret information? No....

Not certain if this outfit is deployed for said red flag, but y'all may want to look into 193rd Special Operations Group, based at Olmstead AFB, Hbg, Pa.
Their EC-130's are more than capable of the jamming you are seeing.
A friend of mine is a pilot there- I'll see if he is on manuevers currently.

Originally posted by no_one817
Calm down, just typical testing during games. More info for your fancy on this month's red flag, also known as my vacation.

I wasn't aware I appeared excited about anything? I was just trying to understand and get what facts I could. When it comes to the above information, I knew nothing, but now I have an idea about the above topics if I ever see them again.

You my friend need to stop taking things so personally. That comment wasn't directed to you. It was merely for the post itself. The paranoia of GPS jamming, i felt, was a little over the top. And then I provided a little basic info on said red flag. Only because some people appreciate the information.

reply to post by cbianchi513


I can't find any information on the EC-130 jamming GPS signals, but you can't rule it out. However, if they are trying to jam smart bombs, a ground based system should be sufficient. I would venture it is more likely our enemies would do their jamming from the ground.

www.globalsecurity.org...
Note the comment about "Two high power GPS jamming vans"

I didn't log the equipment used by the Nellis jammers, but it was something like this:
www2.rohde-schwarz.com...
Basically, it is a dual channel signal generator, not really a transmitter per se.

Originally posted by no_one817
You my friend need to stop taking things so personally. That comment wasn't directed to you. It was merely for the post itself. The paranoia of GPS jamming, i felt, was a little over the top. And then I provided a little basic info on said red flag. Only because some people appreciate the information.

Alright, well, no worries. I don't sense any paranoia here, but I guess our definitions of the word differ.

[edit on 1/18/2008 by DesertWatchdog]

Originally posted by gariac
reply to post by cbianchi513

 

I can't find any information on the EC-130 jamming GPS signals, but you can't rule it out. However, if they are trying to jam smart bombs, a ground based system should be sufficient. I would venture it is more likely our enemies would do their jamming from the ground.

Do you know how they keep from jamming their own GPS systems on the aircraft? Or would they just not use their GPS during the jamming?

They simply.. have other means.. of keeping their 'gps' up and running

reply to post by DesertWatchdog


You don't need a GPS to fly a plane. You can google interial guidance system to get the details. All you need to know is where you started when you initiated the guidance system. The better car navigation systems have inertial guidance as well, though it isn't particularly good. Rather, it is used for brief periods where your GPS won't have lock. For instance, you are driving in a tunnel or canyon. Obviously in a tunnel, you don't see any birds. In a canyon, you may not see the required 4 birds to get a lock.

Note there are a few GPS-like systems, so all would have to be jammed. In the US testing, they just jam the civilian and military frequencies. The Russians have their version of GPS called glonass.

I think a plane would be pretty immune to GPS jamming from a ground based system since it is above the jamming source. The body of the plane itself would shield it. You could probably program the GPS to ignore birds at the horizon, which is where a land based jammer would show up.