The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training

Originally posted by darkbluesky

Isn't that what your're doing as well? "The flight instructors said Hanjour could barely speak english"......hearsay.

Did I say I depended on those words as the truth, the entire truth, and nothing but the truth. Since I do not recall doing that, you will need to provide the source you think makes your point for you that I did.

I did post this in one post. With so many discrepancies between those bearing witness, nothing is a fact as to whether they could or could not comprehend the English language.

Those supporting the "official" reports claim it is a "fact" the "official" reports "report only the truth". No, they do not and never did.

That is the reason I continue to post the other side of hearsay to validate both are only hearsay and nothing more. However, it raised enough red flags to begin to warrant a new full independent investigation of 9/11/2001, using only validated facts, plus, recorded documentation, and witness testimony under oath. That means all witnesses not just those hand picked by the Bush administration, as occurred with the 9/11 Commission.

That also means the US bureaucracy is going to have to release all those reports they say they are sitting on, and have continued to refuse to release them to anyone - not even the 9/11 Commission. Kean and Hamilton reported that in public interviews and their co-authored book. Have you read their book? It is a must read for anyone making any comments concerning 9/11.

Be it a plane, auto, or gun etc., someone of no hands on experience, in reality conditions, would ceratinly have an impossible task of making the one chance only type of "expert" air maneuvers the "official" reports state they made, plus, one chance only "expertly" hitting targets as well. That immediately throws up red flags, as to lack of credibility in those "official" reports.

We have enough experts, who, through hands on experience expertise, have effectively refuted, not merely disputed, those "official" reports. Some posters have certainly not been stingy, in consistently providing those experts' evalutions and analyses from their hands on expertise.

Originally posted by OrionStars
reply to post by topsecretombomb

 

Would a cruise missle with folding wings look to be more plausible at the Pentagon?

Yes that would be very plausible to say the least.

yeah it seems that that was more probable....

Anyways, I am wondering if Lear is ever going to get something going, or if the plan is going to die like all our hopes......

JOHN LEAR WHERE ARE YOU!!!????!!!

A modern fly-by-wire jet of any size or weight is much easier to fly than a single engine Cessna. A computer flies the jumbo jets. Control inputs only tell the computer where the pilot desires the plane to go and the computer makes it happen. Almost no skill involved. Besides, these guys practiced on computer simulators the same way the shuttle astronauts learn to fly the shuttle.

There's plenty of things that don't add up about 9/11 but this isn't one of them. Best to not cloud the air and confuse the argument with non-issues.

reply to post by Muddyrider


I should have had a job like that. High pay, benefits and maybe some nice perks and no skills required. Somehow I seriously doubt that is true.

Originally posted by Muddyrider
A modern fly-by-wire jet of any size or weight is much easier to fly than a single engine Cessna. A computer flies the jumbo jets. Control inputs only tell the computer where the pilot desires the plane to go and the computer makes it happen. Almost no skill involved. Besides, these guys practiced on computer simulators the same way the shuttle astronauts learn to fly the shuttle.

There's plenty of things that don't add up about 9/11 but this isn't one of them. Best to not cloud the air and confuse the argument with non-issues.

Muddyrider, welcome.

Yes, you are correct...a modern fly-by-wire jet...is easy to fly. But, not easier than a Cessna 152, or a Cessna 172, or 182,or 182RG....or any Cessna...or any Piper, or any Beechcraft, or Aero Commander...all airplanes I have flown. Oh! Besides the fact that I have also lots of time in the SA-226, the B-727, the B-737, the B-757, the B-767, the DC-10 and the A-300...forgot to mention, the DC-9 and the MD-80.

Point is, if we factor out Airbus, and focus on Boeing...the B757 and B767 are NOT fly-by-wire, sorry. The 757/767 control wheels still operate cables to hydraulic actuators...these actuators then port the required pressures, via hydraulic lines, to the moveable surfaces. Difference in Airbus systems is...they still use actuators, but the impulses to operate the actuators is electronic...hence, fly-by-wire.

My point is, there has to be an 'artificial feel' in the system, whichever you chose. I posted in another thread, about the ADC (air data computer) inputs and how it affects many aspects of a modern jet...this is another aspect.

Think of your car, a modern car....they have 'speed sensitive' steering, in other words, there are computers in your car that know the speed, and monitor the steering inputs as a result, to give you a 'feel' at different speeds. I am not making this up, you can research it.

Systems in automobiles are not ANYTHING like the systems in a modern airliner...I just wanted to use an example.

Finally...and this is important...from the user's point of view, the 'feel' seems natural, and that is what the engineers built into it. THAT is why a B757/767 can be flown by a pilot, even if he/she were trained on something else. BUT, in the case of 9/11, the perps also had some time in a simulator...not a desk-top, but a full-motion simulator. They are all over the world, and only cost about $3000 per hour if you want to fly one....

Originally posted by OrionStars
reply to post by Muddyrider

 

I should have had a job like that. High pay, benefits and maybe some nice perks and no skills required. Somehow I seriously doubt that is true.

Orion, you have now crossed a line into silliness.

What's more, you have just insulted me..not only me, but about 40,000+ professional pilots around the world.

"...no skills required."!!!!!!! This, a direct quote from YOU! You, SIR, have no right to talk about skills required to fly an airplane. You, SIR, have demonstrated repeatedly a complete lack of knowledge of aviation, of airplanes, of Air Traffic Control procedures and protocols, of ANYTHING that relates to what I spent over 30 years of my life in a career.

YOU, on the otherhand, have provided NOTHING to our audience to support your credibility, except for insults and circular arguments. You, SIR, are a fraud! Does this violate the ATS T&Cs? I don't know, I don't care. Feel free to report this post to the Mods....there is a button there.

I believe that, in the crucible of full disclosure, there will be justice.

adding....to report this, just click on the 'alert' button....

[edit on 6-2-2008 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by weedwhacker

Originally posted by OrionStars
reply to post by Muddyrider

 

I should have had a job like that. High pay, benefits and maybe some nice perks and no skills required. Somehow I seriously doubt that is true.

Orion, you have now crossed a line into silliness.

Is it? Of does it logically follow that if any of those computer components and/or programs glitch, someone better have the expertise to manually fly those planes? Particularly, when they are responsible for all those people aboard commercial jetliners.

Computers are known to glitch for any reason at the most inconvenient times. Emergency time, in flight, is not the time to start tracking computer problems. Someone better have the expertise to manually fly planes, which do not fly themselves, regardless of what some people opine about them to make rationalization fit the "official" reports.

someone better have the expertise to manually fly those planes

Believe me we have, that's one of the resons why they pay us the big bucks to sit up in the pointy end.

But most of the time it's just a walk in the park, while the automatics do the hard work.

I'm a pilot of the old school that likes to handfly as much as possible,
but high density airports and rigid SOP's strongly limits the possibility
for that.

Originally posted by Freaky_Animal

someone better have the expertise to manually fly those planes

Believe me we have, that's one of the resons why they pay us the big bucks to sit up in the pointy end.

Wouldn't a "pointy end" be indicative of a single prop engine plane such as that pictured at the following website?:

www.aerotrader.com...

Wouldn't a "pointy end" be indicative of a single prop engine plane such as that pictured at the following website?:

I fly my brothers C172 just about once a year.

The first couple of hours looks downright ugly

It takes time to adjust from my jet-powered hardware to a piston driven

lightweight single engine aircraft.

I'm having a damn hard time getting used to control sinkrate with throttle,

and speed with pitch.

On the birds that i fly we do it contrary.

Well, after about 30 hours on the 172 i'm sure i could pass typerating test

on it. (did that in 1972)

reply to post by Freaky_Animal


Hey, Freaky!

I remember, vaguely, the 'Great Debate' even in the GA world (when I was learning, in the late 1970s) about pitch or power, for altitude and speed control. Since it is always a combination of both, the argument is moot ultimately.

For the benefit of our audience...at any given power setting, minor pitch changes will indeed affect altitude, and will have a negligible effect on airspeed. Remember, I said MINOR pitch changes. In the case of a climb, or a descent phase of flight, at a given power setting, the slight pitch changes will modify the vertical speed (V/S). I am talking about +/- 5 KIAS here, give or take.

About 10 years ago, I decided to rent a Cessna 210 for a trip up to Lake Powell, AZ. At the time I was flying the DC-10 at my airline...I remember the instructor who was checking me out commenting on the fact that I was holding the control wheel with two fingers...even though, to his experience, the C210 has a fairly heavy control 'feel', to my experience it was light as a feather. HOWEVER, when I first flew a C210, back in the late 1970s, the C210 felt like a 'Mack Truck' compared to, say, a Cessna 150. It is all about what you get used to.

Modern Boeing jets still use cables and pulleys, connected from the controls to hydraulic valves, which in turn port the hydraulic pressure (typically 3000psi) to the control surface actuators. Airbuses, like the A320/319, and the newer A330 and A340 skip the cables, hence the term 'fly-by-wire', already well-valid technology used in military fighters for decades (I have never flown the newer Airbuses, just the A300, so I don't know much else about their control systems).

Now, the feel on the controls of a modern Boeing jet are 'heavier' than on a small GA airplane, but not like what you'd expect if the power-steering went out on your car. There is an 'artificial feel' built in, using springs in the system. However, a pilot with a few hundred hours in a Cessna would need just a few hours in a Boeing simulator to become accustomed to the different 'feel'. The principles of flight, three axes of motion, navigation, 'pull back, houses get smaller, push forward, houses get bigger'...that stays the same. It's only a difference in the details...how to tune the VOR (just need to know where the tuning panel is located...it's on the center console), how to program the FMS, (pretty easy, as has been pointed out before...type in using the letters on the keypad, they appear in the 'scratch pad', then 'line'select' to insert, press 'EXEC')...how to display the HSI in the screen in the cockpit...actually, if they had Sim time, they would keep the EHSI in 'Map' mode, gives representational view of course info...

Simply put, a 300 - 600 hour Commercial Rated pilot, who had the fortune to spend several thousand dollars to but time in a real Boeing Sim, would be able to fly the real airplane. Not land...steer, tune and aim....

Orion:
If you do not believe us who are pilots.
Then I say to you pony up your money, about 100USD
and go to your local airport hire a instructor and a airplane
and take a hop around the patch.

Find out for you self if you do not believe..........

Originally posted by Wing-nut
Orion:
If you do not believe us who are pilots.
Then I say to you pony up your money, about 100USD
and go to your local airport hire a instructor and a airplane
and take a hop around the patch.

Find out for you self if you do not believe..........

Other people saying they are pilots also, while posting to these discussions, disagree with others claiming to be pilots. Why should I arbitrarily believe some anonymous persons claiming to be pilots on Internet forums?

No, I do not want proof of anyone's personal life. I also am not arbitrarily going to believe people claiming to be something just because they say so in Internet forums, particularly when concentrating on their opinions and not much more.

Believe it or not, I can read what someone writes and realize who is most likely credible and who is not. It is all in what they present of themselves and knowledge in discussions.

Originally posted by OrionStars

No, I do not want proof of anyone's personal life.
Nor do I.

I also am not arbitrarily going to believe people claiming to be something just because they say so in Internet forums, particularly when concentrating on their opinions and not much more.
One should not have a mind that is so open that ones brains fall out.

Believe it or not, I can read what someone writes
I believe that you can, but do you under stand what your reading?

and realize who is most likely credible and who is not.
I do not think that you can!

It is all in what they present of themselves and knowledge in discussions.
From what I have seen here in this post you would not know presentation or knowledge if it came up to you in person and said HI........

Your logic is very circular, when you are given proof you either ignore it or
disrespect the person presenting it.

BUT ENOUGH of this!

As I said before get your butt in a aircraft, strap it on and light the fire...

Or are you here just to stir the pot as were?

Hate to rain on this parade.
I refer to the underlined text.
Not here to argue just showing information.

Fla. flight schools may have trained hijackers

September 14, 2001 Posted: 12:41 AM EDT (0441 GMT)

By Mike Fish
CNN

(CNN) -- Florida is known for its sunshine and sandy beaches, and now as likely training ground for some of the terrorists suspected of crashing commercial airliners into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and a barren Pennsylvania field.

Officials at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach confirmed Thursday that the FBI has sought information on Waleed Al Sheri, 25, who graduated in 1997 with a bachelor's degree in aeronautical science -- the four-year school's commercial pilot training degree.

The FBI is also investigating Mohamed Atta, 33, and Marwan Al Sheri, 23. Law enforcement sources said they were looking at a possible family link between Marwan and Waleed Al Sheri.

Atta and Marwan Al Sheri studied at the Technical University in Hamburg, Germany. The men lived together in Germany and Coral Springs, Florida. Officials of Huffman Aviation, a flight school in Venice, Florida, said the two men also trained there and that investigators are examining student records.

They also held passports from the United Arab Emirates, law enforcement sources said, but a UAE spokesman denied they were citizens.

According to law enforcement sources, Atta was on American Airlines Flight 11 that departed from Boston and slammed into the World Trade Center. A Mitsubishi sedan he rented was found at Boston's Logan Airport. Arabic language materials were found in the car.

German authorities searched Atta's apartment in Hamburg and those of three others they said are linked to a terrorist group they did not name.

As federal agents pored over flight school student records across Florida, they questioned Saudi flight engineer Adnan Bukhari about two Arab flight school students who lived next door to him in Vero Beach.

Neighbors said Amer Kamfar and Abdulrahman Alomari, both of whom were thought to have trained at Flight Safety Academy in Vero Beach, abruptly moved out earlier this month, The Associated Press reported.

Federal sources initially identified Bukhari and Ameer Bukhari as possible hijackers who boarded one of the planes that originated in Boston. The two men were first identified as brothers, but Adnan Bukhari said that was not the case.

Their names had been tied to a car found at an airport in Portland, Maine, but Adnan Bukhari's attorney said it appeared their identifications were stolen and said Bukhari had no role in the hijackings. A federal law enforcement official said Bukhari passed an FBI polygraph test and is not considered a suspect.

Ameer Bukhari died in a small plane crash in Florida last year, said Adnan Bukhari's attorney.

Roger Richie, a spokesman for Flight Safety Academy, confirmed that Bukhari, a flight engineer with Saudi Airlines, is part of a current yearlong program to train pilots for the airline.

He refused to discuss whether Kamfar or Alomari were connected to the program, although he did say the company turned over its records to the FBI.

"The investigation is enormous because they're going through all of Florida with a fine-tooth comb," Richie said. "They're talking to everybody that is in the flight training business. Of course, they're not sharing the results, so we can't tell who they are looking for or what they are looking for."

Flight Safety Academy and Embry-Riddle, the world's largest university specializing in aviation, enjoy a business relationship. Flight Safety houses a flight simulator on the university campus in Daytona Beach. The simulator is also available to Embry-Riddle students.

Tuition at Embry-Riddle is more than $14,000 a year, not including the cost of the flight training and simulator time required for a degree in aeronautical science.

"That is a degree students take who have an interest in making a career as a commercial pilot," said college spokesman Bob Ross. "[Waleed Al Sheri] is listed as having a commercial pilot's license."

Those aspiring to a career as a commercial pilot are often drawn to Florida, which is home to at least 250 flight training schools. Not only are programs plentiful, but the cost is relatively inexpensive for students coming from overseas.

"There's more flight training in Florida than anywhere else possibly in the world," Richie said. "The weather is very good, a lot of nice airports. There is the ocean on either side, which means places to fly out and come back."

Flight Safety is a New York-based company with 44 offices worldwide. At its Florida facility, Richie said, the school often conducts pilot training programs for major international carriers such as Korean Airlines, Swiss Air and China Air.

Because Saudi Airlines is eliminating flight engineers from its three-member crews, Richie said the airline has in the past year sent flight engineers to Florida for pilot training.

He said the program has ended for some of the engineers, suggesting that may explain why some have recently left the Vero Beach area.

Embry-Riddle officials said 12 percent of the students come from countries other than the United States. Saudi Arabians are second only to South Koreans among international students.

"People are calling here with threats, saying we are a terrorist training institute," said Dave Esser, head of the aeronautical engineering department.

"We've trained thousands of commercial pilots. We've trained astronauts. If any of our students are associated with this, it is very sad."

The tragic irony is that 1983 Embry-Riddle graduate David Charlebois was a victim of the terrorism. Charlebois was first officer on American Airlines Flight 77 bound for Los Angeles from Dulles International Airport outside Washington that was crashed into the Pentagon.

"We train one-quarter of the commercial pilots in the United States, so when we heard about this tragedy we knew the odds were good one of pilots would be involved. It turns out maybe some that were not authorized to fly were also pilots," said Embry-Riddle's Ross.

Source:News item above
The schools URL:Embry-Riddle University

[edit on 12-2-2008 by WraothAscendant]

And there is this.

September 14, 2003
Hard Times Are Plaguing Flight Schools in Florida
By ABBY GOODNOUGH


PEMBROKE PINES, Fla., Sept. 13 — Terry Fensome thought his flight school's fortunes had hit bottom in November 2001 when one of his planes was intercepted by fighter pilots who thought they were foiling a terrorist attack on Orlando.

But the acute embarrassment of that incident — the student was forced to land, questioned and released — was nothing compared with the economic misery that has dogged the Pelican Flight Training Center since then, a result of the 2001 terrorist attacks. Mr. Fensome's school is one of dozens in Florida that have struggled mightily in the last two years, beset by collapsing enrollment, security-related red tape and the stigma of being linked to the 9/11 hijackers, several of whom learned to fly in Florida.

"We never recovered," said Mr. Fensome, whose school has 30 students now, down from 60 before the attacks, though none of the hijackers trained at Pelican. "The idea that the flight schools were to blame for this was totally off the wall, and it hurt us a lot."

At least 50 of the state's flight schools have closed since 9/11, most of them mom-and-pop operations that could not survive the drop in business and rising costs. The number of foreign students has plummeted, flight school owners say, because of tough new immigration rules, the battered aviation industry and a general fear of bias since 9/11.

It is a striking reversal for the flight schools. With its warm weather, abundance of airfields and good flying conditions, Florida has long drawn student pilots from the United States and abroad.

The state had at least 220 of about 2,000 flight schools in the country in 2001, and trained about 20 percent of all pilots in the world, the Florida Department of Transportation said.

About half of the state's student pilots were foreigners drawn by the stature and lower costs of flight school in this country, flight school owners said.

Shortly after 9/11, Congress passed a law requiring extensive background checks for all foreigners learning to fly planes heavier than 12,500 pounds, which is about the size of a 10-seat jet. Since the checks can take months, many student pilots have opted to train in South Africa or Australia, which have a lot of flight academies and less oversight, flight school owners said.

In addition, American flight schools must now be certified by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, and the State Department keeps a close eye on all foreign flight students. Even applicants to schools for flying small planes, like Mr. Fensome's, must undergo background checks, though they are not as extensive as those for students at the schools for the pilots of jetliners. Only a few Florida flight schools train pilots for larger planes, and since the schools are bigger, they have generally not taken the financial hits of the smaller ones.

Marilyn Ladner, a vice president of Pan American International Flight Academy in Miami, said her school and others that offer advanced training had lost a lot of foreign students since the attacks because of the requirement for background checks. But Ms. Ladner said most of her revenue loss was due to the poor economy and because the airlines were not hiring.

Arne Kruithof, who owns Florida Flight Training Center in Venice, where one 9/11 hijacker learned to fly, said he had only a handful of students a year ago and his business was then barely surviving. Now, he said, he has 40 students and business is getting back to normal.

Mr. Kruithof, who has taken out loans to aggressively advertise his school in Europe, said, "Everything started recovering last winter, then when the news came that we were going to attack Iraq, we lost all our business again."

Mr. Kruithof's school trained Ziad al-Jarrah, one of the men who hijacked United Airlines Flight 93, which crashed into a field in Pennsylvania. A neighboring flight school, Huffman Aviation, trained Mohamed Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi, identified as leaders of the hijackings. The school's owner, Rudi Dekkers, sold his struggling business last winter.

Mr. Kruithof said a favorable exchange rate began drawing Europeans back to American flight schools in late spring. But like other flight school owners, he said no Middle Easterners had enrolled.

He said he had contacted the families of some former Middle Eastern students to ask why, and said they had told him the reason was part anger, part fear. "They said we could credit it to a general boycott against everything American," Mr. Kruithof said.

Their fear is warranted, other flight school operators said, because of what several called the continuing suspicions of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and local law enforcement authorities. An example was the interception of Mr. Fensmore's student, a 24-year-old Angolan, after someone heard a radio transmission that supposedly threatened an attack on Orlando International Airport.

"Can you imagine one of these little things taking out Disney World?" Mr. Fensmore said, pointing to one of his two-seat Katana DA-20's at North Perry Airport, where his company has trained pilots for 18 years. "My student was scared out of his wits."

More recently, someone called the F.B.I. to report that a plane owned by Trade Winds International Flight School in Fort Pierce had circled a nuclear power plant on Hutchison Island, off Florida's Atlantic coast.

"I got a call from Miami air traffic control, and the next thing I knew the F.B.I. showed up at my door," Ernie Carnahan, president of Trade Winds, said. "They asked what color my plane was, apologized and said it was a case of mistaken identity. But it shows you they are still watching close."

Mr. Kruithof even saw a bright side. Federal agencies immediately answer phone calls and e-mail messages from flight schools these days, he said, while in the past such inquiries often fell through the cracks.

The government has also updated the application forms for foreigners seeking visas for flight instruction, Mr. Kruithof said, replacing forms that he said were so outdated they asked if the applicant had ties to the Third Reich.

Still, with student pilots restricted from flying over Walt Disney World and other potential terrorist targets, some student pilots are nervous, fearing they could unintentionally violate a rule and wind up in jail.

"There's always going to be that feeling that you're doing something wrong," Brett Montgomery, 19, who is training at Pelican, said.

Mr. Fensome was bristling because a visit by President Bush on Tuesday to Fort Lauderdale, about 10 miles north of Pembroke Pines, had shut down all flight schools in the area for the day.

"Every time they bring the president or another government official down they close the flight schools and we lose business," Mr. Fensome said, adding that he could not recall any such shutdowns before 9/11. "This knee-jerk stuff is toning down now, but it's never going to go away completely."

While the security crackdown is a nuisance, rising insurance premiums are a far more serious threat to flight schools, Mr. Fensome and others said. Mr. Fensome has grounded 5 of his 15 airplanes to reduce insurance costs, but he still pays $10,000 a month, he said. Mr. Kruithof said his insurance costs have risen by 55 percent since the attacks.

Many flight school operators say they believe business will fully recover over the next five years, as the economy improves, baby-boomer airline pilots start retiring and the aviation industry starts hiring again.

Until then, Mr. Fensome said he would be content with things as they were one day this week, as he watched four of his little planes scuttle out to the runway. "Four of them," he said, leaning forward to watch the first plane take off. "That's a blessing."



Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company

Source:newsmine.org...

Originally posted by Wing-nut

Your logic is very circular, when you are given proof you either ignore it or
disrespect the person presenting it.

BUT ENOUGH of this!

As I said before get your butt in a aircraft, strap it on and light the fire...

Or are you here just to stir the pot as were?

It appears you misunderstood what I wrote. If someone has the expertise claimed, that will shine through in what he or she presents during discussion. If he or she is not, it will not. I do not have to see personal pieces of paper, in order to know if someone is knowledgeable or not, concerning what he or she presents. I can always research to verify if someone is knowledgeable or not.

I do not have to fly a plane to know whether or not someone is qualified. Level of qualification shines through when a person, claiming to be qualified, flies a plane.

Perhaps it is you stirring the pot by getting snide with me rather than staying on topic?

[edit on 12-2-2008 by OrionStars]

reply to post by OrionStars


You've seen them (the alleged hi-jackers) flying commercial aircraft yourself?

Otherwise your dealing with hearsay. Those statements could be lies. I am not saying they are but its a possibility.


And I am talking as it is in a court of law.