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Jesus and Murder

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posted on Feb, 12 2004 @ 10:09 PM
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Originally posted by jammerman
lilblam,

Knowledge does not atone for karma. Knowledge still requires belief at the most fundamental levels. You act on your belief that the knowledge you have is true do you not? I agree that knowledge is very important to growth and understanding what we experience, but it cannot substitute for the experience itself.

The Jovial Athiest perspective puts its "faith" in the physical. "The mind is the greatest creation of the universe" Perhaps the physcial universe or lower dimensional levels, but Love supercedes knowledge and the mind and the physcial IMHO.

Before I forget, thank you for pointing out my error. 300 AD is correct. I was very tired last night.

Yes, we should question everything. That is natural to learning and believing without investigating is probably not the best path (at least for myself), but it isn't necessarily incorrect either. Because we cannot "step into another's soul" and experience everything from their perspective we should not judge other's points of views. But challenging them to test of knowledge and understanding I "believe" is healthy in all aspects of growth and development.

What is belief? What is Faith? Faith IS belief in something that cannot be known as you stated earlier. Why is faith so important? Well, what is the fundamental aspect of Faith? Trust. The pentultimate TRUST. Trust is the fundamental component in relationships. It is what binds two together and makes them more unified. I put my Faith in those I Love, but God first. I have never felt let-down by God. And I "Believe" that I never will.
I have to go for now as I am at work, but thanks for the stimulating discussion.

Peace Always,

+Jammer


Can't say I agree with everything you just said, but you had some good points.

First of all, I really don't act on my belief that the knowledge I have is true. It just seems to make sense to me for now, until I learn something else that supercedes my current knowledge and this one will either no longer apply, or be added on to the new knowledge. The thing is, if I start believing that the knowledge I have is true, this would make everything else false, which is not necessarily the case at all.

You said it cannot substitute for the experience, but isn't the experience the main thing that GIVES you the knowledge in the first place? I mean, if you read something or someone tells you something, that's not knowledge, it's just something you heard/read. It must be applied and connected to everything else you've learned to see where it fits... and is not so simple. It seems to never reach 100% truth, no matter how close you think you are.

You said love supercedes knowledge. Well, to me, love IS knowledge. To me there is absolutely no difference, it's just 2 different words for the exact same thing. Love can also be a strong fondness for something... a really really big "like" in a sense. But what does that really mean? Does this imply attachment to this thing?

But this brings up another question, if you say "I loved this movie" are you really attached to it? Don't really know how you can be attached to a movie...

But when you say "I love this movie" maybe you just mean that it reflects your ideas and understandings, and maybe even reflects your life so you feel a "connection" to the idea the movie is presenting. Doesn't mean you love it, it's just a general way to express an otherwise lengthy explanation. Just helps to avoid getting into details. Love means different things.

What you said about judging others' points of view... you're saying that the best we can do is assess them and compare them to OUR knowledge? This does bring up a question, how does one know whose "knowledge" is more true to objective reality? That's a really hard question to answer sometimes, and appears to be at the root of many arguments, as people cannot see that it's possible that they are BOTH wrong. To admit you're wrong seems like a weakness to people, and isn't something many will readily do, even if presented with overwhelming evidence to the contrary of their argument. However, that may just be the "ego" in control... the pride of being "right" is under threat, and who likes losing their pride?

That's why it is important to work on the SELF, to figure yourself out before you try to figure everyone else out. Once you (more or less) know yourself, everything else starts falling into place.

Ok now we come to TRUST. To me it means "faith" in someone or something. You have no actual knowledge of the truth of something, but you have "faith" that it is accurate, hence trust. Trust is simply a shortcut... something that helps us avoid calculating the accuracy of every single thing we encounter. Our brains are really great pattern recognition systems, and once you recognize a pattern of "truth" from one single source (be it a friend or anything else), you add credibility (trust) to that source and releave yourself of the task of checking every single bit of info that comes out of it.

Indeed pattern recognition is helpful in a more or less stable, static source. But if someone is absolutely random, spontaneous, and unpredictable, trust is not such a wise choice. The best I can say is, sometimes trust really helps (removes the workload of double checking everything), and other times it can really bite you in the ass.

The problem is, people sometimes develop trust in sources that SEEM like they are accurate (our government?) but we cannot really be sure. It may feel good to know that whoever is in charge where you live is an accurate, honest source... but that's where an error can occur. It is foolish to "trust" based on emotion or your own insecurities... the WISH that this source was honest is NOT a reason to trust it! That's just my view anyway...

People establish faith (trust) in religions etc, but on what basis exactly? Where is the consistency throughout history that would trigger our pattern recognition systems to develop "faith" in this system? Seems more like a form of control, a psychological way to induce trust in yourself, by pushing our "emotional" and "fear-based" buttons... one can be blackmailed into trust also


So, caution is advised.. and much much vigilance.. at ALL times in ALL places!




posted on Feb, 13 2004 @ 12:33 AM
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Worldwatcher-- I know this is long, but I tried the best I could at this late hour to answer your question as comprehensively as I could.


Deuteronomy 30
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


This is God's clear command.

bible.gospelcom.net...


I didn't want to post this entire text. But this chapter explains how during OT they were to be cleansed or forgiven for their sins. If you read this you will realize what an enormous effort it was to be forgiven. Also, that the key factor was the shedding of blood. When Christ was crucified, His bloodshed was for ALL mankind. Only the blood of the Son of God could cleans us all. As it is stated here..

Mark 14

22While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body."
23Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it.
24"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them. 25"I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God."

bible.gospelcom.net...
John 3
15 so that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.


These passages show that faith in Christ is the way to Heaven. His blood was shed instead of ours. Since scripture can't possibly address every particular issue specifically we must look at the fundamentals of it's teachings. In the specific example you gave, the man did not repent his sin. He consistantly claimed innocence. If he was indeed innocent and accepted Christ into his heart as his savior, then it is believed that he would be accepted into heaven. If he was guilty, then it is believed that he would not be accepted into heaven. This is because he had not repented. If he was guilty and had accepted Christ into his heart as his savior and repented, then it is believed that he would be accepted into heaven. This may sound unfair to our worldly minds, but it is consistant with the nature of sin. Sin is considered to be any act that separates you from God.

Exodus 20


The Ten Commandments

1 And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand [generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
13 "You shall not murder.
14 "You shall not commit adultery.
15 "You shall not steal.
16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."


He does not give one more importance than another.In the eyes of God one sin is no worse than another. Sin is sin is sin. Murder is just as bad a sin as not honoring your father and mother, or bearing false witness to your neighbor(lying). I suggest you read Romans in the NT. It addreses most a lot of these kinds of questions. I hope I helped you get a little more scriptural understanding of your proposed dilemma.



posted on Feb, 13 2004 @ 01:01 AM
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The Ten Commandments

1 And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand [generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
13 "You shall not murder.
14 "You shall not commit adultery.
15 "You shall not steal.
16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."



Do these Commandments adhere to modern day society, being the first seems quite incoherent.

3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me

Jealous God? What god would punish Children who have not commited any sin other than genitic Kinship?

Deep



posted on Feb, 13 2004 @ 01:19 AM
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Yes they do. In the first commandment he is addressing the Israelites. After the resurrection of Christ all believers were considered to become a part of God's chosen people, just as the Iraelites were. That should clear up the relevance on that. The generations of punishment are negated by the blood of Christ. All sin is forgiven when you are faithful. God in the OT was not nearly as merciful as He is after the resurrection of Christ. But Hs blessings continue for the righteous.



posted on Feb, 13 2004 @ 01:44 AM
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Btw since jealousy is an "imperfection" he is no longer perfect, and no longer God. Ahmen


But anyways, perfection is in the eye of the beholder as usual. What is perfection to one, is not to someone else. Just like Good and Evil are relative. How can one believe in a God who so obviously contradicts his own definition?


[Edited on 13-2-2004 by lilblam]



posted on Feb, 13 2004 @ 10:33 AM
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Originally posted by lilblam
Btw since jealousy is an "imperfection" he is no longer perfect, and no longer God. Ahmen



Absolutley not. Jealousy is an emotion. Emotions are not imperfections. Therefore jealousy is not an imperfection. Jealousy is usually frowned upon because most people don't react to it in a holy/Godly way. Instead, they often fall into sin. God is incapable of sinning.



posted on Feb, 13 2004 @ 11:09 AM
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Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Do these Commandments adhere to modern day society, being the first seems quite incoherent.

3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me

Jealous God? What god would punish Children who have not commited any sin other than genitic Kinship?

Deep


How dare you speak the Word of God in vain like that? It has to do with life and survival, and it has to do with Love. Each language his angel. And each of these angels, the Arches or the Princes, has a responsibility before tha Father. So in order to win God's heart when he arrives at his regular flight this time, you better not be so stupid that you walk away from the source and won't pay heed to the wise hints God has given us.

Blessings,
Mikromarius



posted on Feb, 13 2004 @ 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by lilblam

Can't say I agree with everything you just said, but you had some good points.

First of all, I really don't act on my belief that the knowledge I have is true.

Are you sure about this? Why do you bother to get up in the morning? Do you not believe that the world you left when you entered the dreamworld will return similar to what it was before you left?
Why are you writing to this thread? Do you not believe that you have a valid point of view or that you may be of influence to others or be influenced by others? Do you not seek information and understanding of that information?
Why do you post links to the Jovial Athiest point of view? Do you not believe that there are valid points from that perspective? Do you act purely out of spontenaity rather than a belief that your perspective is both valid and true?
I think we should clarify our definitions here because it seems that the definition of belief is...

Here is a snippet from dictionary.com

belief

n 1: any cognitive content held as true [ant: unbelief] 2: a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof [syn: dogma, tenet] 3: a vague idea in which some confidence is placed; "his impression of her was favorable"; "what are your feelings about the crisis?"; "it strengthened my belief in his sincerity" [syn: impression, feeling, notion]

The first definition is what I am describing and my perspective in my posts. Which is yours?



Originally posted by lilblam
It just seems to make sense to me for now, until I learn something else that supercedes my current knowledge and this one will either no longer apply, or be added on to the new knowledge. The thing is, if I start believing that the knowledge I have is true, this would make everything else false, which is not necessarily the case at all.


Yes, belief's change. That is because they are subjective, not objective. You are mixing up subjective truth with objective truth. The problem is that we cannot reach objective truth without the subjective element. How can you separate yourself from you? Therefore, we cannot (and should not) throw out the subjective viewpoint as it pertains to truth. The mere observation of something changes it.


Originally posted by lilblam
You said it cannot substitute for the experience, but isn't the experience the main thing that GIVES you the knowledge in the first place? I mean, if you read something or someone tells you something, that's not knowledge, it's just something you heard/read. It must be applied and connected to everything else you've learned to see where it fits... and is not so simple. It seems to never reach 100% truth, no matter how close you think you are.


Yes, experience gives us empiracal knowledge and gives us opportunity to grow or shrink spiritually. That is why we are incarnated into a four dimensional experience. But experience is NOT the knowledge itself just as the journey is not the destination.


Originally posted by lilblam
You said love supercedes knowledge. Well, to me, love IS knowledge. To me there is absolutely no difference, it's just 2 different words for the exact same thing. Love can also be a strong fondness for something... a really really big "like" in a sense. But what does that really mean? Does this imply attachment to this thing?


Love encompasses and includes knowledge yes, but it is much more. It is acceptance of other's perspectives and validity in their point of view without condemnation. Love absorbs all things (true unconditional love that is) In my opinion (which all I write is) Love by it's definition is unconditional and is difficult for humans to reach. Love moves us above polarity consciousness (right and wrong) and accepts all just as it is. If you look at the Yin/Yang symbol you can see that light is absorbing darkness and darkness it going where light is leaving. Darkness is just the absence of light just as cold is the absence of heat. Love (represented in light) supercedes or casts out darkness. You can choose any words you want to describe this. But as we move up a dimension and view it from the wholistic God perspective, we can see that all is encompassed in one divine circle. All is One. It is our distortion from the One that gives us perspective (Ego) that is distorted by polarity consciousness (right and wrong, good and bad)

Sorry I have to post this half finished... important business at work.

Peace Always,

+Jammer



posted on Feb, 13 2004 @ 03:26 PM
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How dare you speak the Word of God in vain like that? It has to do with life and survival, and it has to do with Love. Each language his angel. And each of these angels, the Arches or the Princes, has a responsibility before tha Father. So in order to win God's heart when he arrives at his regular flight this time, you better not be so stupid that you walk away from the source and won't pay heed to the wise hints God has given us.


Vain? I asked a rational question with no ill intentions involved. I personaly see these commandments not given by God, more less a tribal leader trying to insure maximum cooperation within his community, with strict social regulations. These hardly Affect modern day society, nor incurr fear into the hearts of the followers of Gods Power.

Deep



posted on Feb, 14 2004 @ 08:26 AM
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Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Vain? I asked a rational question with no ill intentions involved. I personaly see these commandments not given by God, more less a tribal leader trying to insure maximum cooperation within his community, with strict social regulations. These hardly Affect modern day society, nor incurr fear into the hearts of the followers of Gods Power.


Then you don't know or understand the Torah, and shouldn't be judging it. Your first words were folly. Your latest, pure madness.

Blessings,
Mikromarius



posted on Feb, 14 2004 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by Nicodemus

Originally posted by lilblam
Btw since jealousy is an "imperfection" he is no longer perfect, and no longer God. Ahmen



Absolutley not. Jealousy is an emotion. Emotions are not imperfections. Therefore jealousy is not an imperfection. Jealousy is usually frowned upon because most people don't react to it in a holy/Godly way. Instead, they often fall into sin. God is incapable of sinning.




Jealousy stems from ignorance. A real God could NEVER be jealous, unless he's afraid someone will worship something OTHER than him, boohoo! Jealousy is not an emotion, it's a state of mind that leads you to other emotions like anger, sadness, etc. It is absolutely ignorant, and possessive. If something you "possess" doesn't do as you command, or associates with something else, you feel THREATENED somehow... hence jealous.

So once again, jealousy is an imperfection. It wasn't even part of humans until recently, about 309,000 years ago.

You cannot THREATEN God. If God feels threatened, he is not God.

[Edited on 14-2-2004 by lilblam]



posted on Feb, 14 2004 @ 01:25 PM
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Then you don't know or understand the Torah, and shouldn't be judging it. Your first words were folly. Your latest, pure madness.


Sadly, I have not. I was just making an observation from the 10 commandments. Madness! Not just yet!


Deep



posted on Feb, 14 2004 @ 03:39 PM
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Originally posted by ZeroDeep



Then you don't know or understand the Torah, and shouldn't be judging it. Your first words were folly. Your latest, pure madness.


Sadly, I have not. I was just making an observation from the 10 commandments. Madness! Not just yet!


Sorry dude, it was really a referance to Solomon
(hint hint)

Blessings,
Mikromarius



posted on Feb, 14 2004 @ 11:25 PM
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Originally posted by lilblam
Jealousy stems from ignorance.


That is a judgement, not a fact


Originally posted by lilblam
A real God could NEVER be jealous, unless he's afraid someone will worship something OTHER than him, boohoo!


First of all, not afraid, hurt. He is hurt by you worhiping something else.
Secondly, duh!, Kinda the whole point of the statement! How would you like it if your precious child wouldn't call you Mom or Dad and wouldn't even admit you were their parent, much less that you even existed. I think you would command your role to that child.


Originally posted by lilblam
Jealousy is not an emotion, it's a state of mind that leads you to other emotions like anger, sadness, etc. It is absolutely ignorant, and possessive. If something you "possess" doesn't do as you command, or associates with something else, you feel THREATENED somehow... hence jealous.

So once again, jealousy is an imperfection. It wasn't even part of humans until recently, about 309,000 years ago.

You cannot THREATEN God. If God feels threatened, he is not God.



Wrong! I find your sense of the term jealous to be "imperfect" and "stemmed in ignorance". Here is the definition of the word Jealous. Note that it has MULTIPLE meanings...

jealous (jls)
adj.

1. Fearful or wary of being supplanted; apprehensive of losing affection or position.
2.
A. Resentful or bitter in rivalry; envious: jealous of the success of others.
B. Inclined to suspect rivalry.
3. Having to do with or arising from feelings of envy, apprehension, or bitterness: jealous thoughts.
4. Vigilant in guarding something: We are jealous of our good name.
5. Intolerant of disloyalty or infidelity; autocratic: a jealous God.

The fifth listed meaning is what is meant in the Bible. How can you say that this is "stemmed from ignorance" or that it is an "imperfection"? Would it be "ignorant" or "imperfect" of anyone to be hurt by their spouse if this spouse had been sleeping with another person? I'm sure even you can call that jealousy. But in the sense that it is an intolerance of infidelity. I don't think many of us would consider ourselves "imperfect" or "ignorant" in that situation.


Originally posted by lilblam
If something you "possess" doesn't do as you command, or associates with something else, you feel THREATENED somehow...


Once again, passing judgement as fact. Not everyone who gets jealous is threatened. An act of disloyalty isn't always threatening.
You try to use "knowledge" to twist something into what it isn't. You are missing the big picture on this one. None of the statements you use to disprove God are valid. The point is God is saying( and I'll paraphrase..) I made you! Worship me! I will be intolerant of you if you don't.
I don't think that is an unreasonable request from the Creator of the universe.



posted on Feb, 20 2004 @ 02:50 AM
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Originally posted by Nicodemus

Originally posted by lilblam
Jealousy stems from ignorance.


That is a judgement, not a fact

No, it's a fact. Tell me why it is not! Also, it is an assessment, NOT a judgement. I observed, then thought about it, then assessed my observations. I didn't "judge" them as being right or wrong or good or bad or sad or funny etc.. THOSE would be judgements and very relative and subjective. Assessment isn't judgement. "Babies come from female humans" is an assessment just like the other one. You can argue that it's wrong, but it's still not a judgement




Originally posted by lilblam
A real God could NEVER be jealous, unless he's afraid someone will worship something OTHER than him, boohoo!


First of all, not afraid, hurt. He is hurt by you worhiping something else.
Secondly, duh!, Kinda the whole point of the statement! How would you like it if your precious child wouldn't call you Mom or Dad and wouldn't even admit you were their parent, much less that you even existed. I think you would command your role to that child.


You can only be HURT if you make yourself vulnerable to being hurt. In your sense God is hurt because of his emotional attachment to me, and an emotional attachment is very much a service to self HUMAN thing. A God has no "emotions" as emotions are really brain chemicals interacting with one another... an omnipresent, omnipotent, NON-PHYSICAL entity cannot POSSIBLY have emotions... once again, emotions are a physical manifestation only, not spiritual. Emotions DO trigger energy releases and intakes however, and help us learn on OUR level.




Originally posted by lilblam
Jealousy is not an emotion, it's a state of mind that leads you to other emotions like anger, sadness, etc. It is absolutely ignorant, and possessive. If something you "possess" doesn't do as you command, or associates with something else, you feel THREATENED somehow... hence jealous.

So once again, jealousy is an imperfection. It wasn't even part of humans until recently, about 309,000 years ago.

You cannot THREATEN God. If God feels threatened, he is not God.



Wrong! I find your sense of the term jealous to be "imperfect" and "stemmed in ignorance". Here is the definition of the word Jealous. Note that it has MULTIPLE meanings...

jealous (jls)
adj.

1. Fearful or wary of being supplanted; apprehensive of losing affection or position.
2.
A. Resentful or bitter in rivalry; envious: jealous of the success of others.
B. Inclined to suspect rivalry.
3. Having to do with or arising from feelings of envy, apprehension, or bitterness: jealous thoughts.
4. Vigilant in guarding something: We are jealous of our good name.
5. Intolerant of disloyalty or infidelity; autocratic: a jealous God.

The fifth listed meaning is what is meant in the Bible.


Oh so the 5th one eh? Loyalty to God means he's violating OUR free will by putting himself in charge. If you do not, he punishes you, as he feels threatened by your disloyalty. So God is intolerant of disloyalty? Sounds more like an oppressive ruler. To RULE someone is to violate their FREE WILL, and it means you NEED or WANT to rule that entity... but what reason would an omnipotent GOD have for demanding our worship and to rule us? This is simply a service to self, dominating, intolerant controller.... which it is. This is where religion stems from.. such entities




How can you say that this is "stemmed from ignorance" or that it is an "imperfection"? Would it be "ignorant" or "imperfect" of anyone to be hurt by their spouse if this spouse had been sleeping with another person?

Yes. This means that you were ignorant enough to attach yourself to a spouse. Ignorance is lack of knowledge. You chose a service to self existance, and therefore it serves YOU (as you gain pleasure from this) to attach yourself to some being that gives you pleasure. You do not possess enough KNOWLEDGE to understand the futility and senselessness of a pleasure-seeking existance. If one seeks knowledge, and not pleasure at all, then one has no attachments or "spouses" and one cannot be HURT by any means. Having a physical flesh body automatically puts you in a pleasure-seeking orientation, which means you can be physically hurt (cuz you're attached to physical existance) or emotionally hurt (as humans have emotions). Also by removing one's attachments, it causes "pain".. as attachments bring PLEASURE, and when you take away the pleasure, pain is caused.

Once again, it is very ignorant.




I'm sure even you can call that jealousy. But in the sense that it is an intolerance of infidelity. I don't think many of us would consider ourselves "imperfect" or "ignorant" in that situation.

Yes, I would be ignorant if I can be hurt in any possible way. Knowledge protects, ignorance endangers. Ignorance creates an illusion that something can be "taken away" or removed from you. Knowledge gives every possible "protection" from any possible kind of danger or pain that exists. But pleasure-seeking beings seek ATTACHMENTS for their own personal pleasure, and therefore in their ignorance they can be hurt.




Originally posted by lilblam
If something you "possess" doesn't do as you command, or associates with something else, you feel THREATENED somehow...


Once again, passing judgement as fact. Not everyone who gets jealous is threatened. An act of disloyalty isn't always threatening.
You try to use "knowledge" to twist something into what it isn't. You are missing the big picture on this one. None of the statements you use to disprove God are valid. The point is God is saying( and I'll paraphrase..) I made you! Worship me! I will be intolerant of you if you don't.

And if I tell God: No you didn't make me, as time isn't real and creation does NOT exist. Also, I have free will, and CHOOSE to not worship anything or anyone. If you retaliate with your "intolerance" that is a violation of MY free will to choose without YOUR interference. Sorry God, you're gonna go have to control someone else who ALLOWS you to do it. Because I realise that you can NEVER control anyone who doesn't LET you control them. If you can fool someone into believing you created them, then you found more ignorant slaves.




I don't think that is an unreasonable request from the Creator of the universe.


It is, as the universe has no creator. It simply is. Until you can understand that, you will defend your "master" to the last drop of blood that you have. So be it.

Intolerance is also ignorance. If you do not tolerate something, that means you are attached to the way it was BEFORE it violated your wishes (or became "disloyal"). Attachments are a service to self pleasure-seeking phenomena, WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

This isn't a judgement, it's an assessment and logical understanding of what IS. You cannot disagree with that which you do not understand, can you? Do you understand how time cannot possibly exist and that the universe HAS no creator and that we're ALL "God" and he's ALL? If you cannot understand that, you cannot possibly argue. If you DID understand, an argument would imply an intentional attempt to corrupt the truth and spread lies to further someone's control over someone else. Simple as that!

You can't argue without using logic against another logical argument. If you argue by saying "It's just wrong cuz my God says so" well you're being gullible and ignorant. I can explain in further detail any parts you do not understand, and feel free to argue against anything that I said that you DO understand. THINKING you understand doesn't count



posted on Feb, 20 2004 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by worldwatcher
I may have mentioned something similar in another thread, but it is something that bothers me about my views on Christianity. Christian's say if you repent sincerely and truly believe in Jesus all your sins will be forgiven and you get to go to heaven.

Now my problem with this is that most serial killers, rapists, murderers, skum of the earth all repent and in their mind they sincerely accept Jesus before being executed.

Now I cannot accept that Jesus will forgive these people and let them into heaven. Personally I would not want to be in a heaven with those people, I never committed horrible deed, doesn't the good get rewarded?

Jesus believers please explain to me why Jesus would forgive these people and allow them in the same heaven as you, the good Christian?

and if you don't think Jesus would forgive them into heaven, then isn't that against your idealogy? Does not Jesus say he died for your sins?


Convicted Killer of 10 year Old Girl he Impregnated is Executed
Maintaining his innocence, a convicted killer was executed Wednesday for a 1991 triple slaying in which one victims was a 10-year-old girl pregnant with his child.
"I just want to say I am not sad or bitter with anybody," Edward Lagrone said in a brief final statement. "Like I've said from Day One, I didn't kill them. But I'm no better than the people that did."

He concluded by saying: "Jesus is Lord. That's all I have to say."

ap.tbo.com...


[Edited on 2-11-2004 by worldwatcher]

Well if this guy truly didt kill them then i think he did go to heaven



posted on Mar, 27 2004 @ 12:16 AM
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Originally posted by lilblam
THINKING you understand doesn't count


That's the most sense in that post!

Knowledge is nothing more than information.



posted on Mar, 27 2004 @ 03:32 AM
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This is what I think.
If a murderer truly - and I mean truly accepts Jesus, then I have no problem with him being saved and accepted by Jesus. Only Jesus himself will know if the murderer truly repents. What we think isnt really relevant. Anyone can say 'Im a Christian", but only Jesus knows for sure.



posted on Mar, 27 2004 @ 04:06 AM
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[Edited on 123131p://3112u by panchovilla]



posted on Mar, 27 2004 @ 04:08 PM
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I ve heard this from many people

one said
"so if Hitler repented to God he would be saved"

Really the bible does teach this therefore yes the serial killer is saved. If he honestly regrets his sin and realises his sin is what keeps him from God.

"For all have sinned and have fallen short of the Glory of God" (somewhere in romans)

All have sinned all cannot compare to Gods standard whether serial killer or just a one off lier. Both stain us.

Now even if hitler was a christian before hand and slipped away he still will be saved. He will regret the wasted life he had. so will i probably. However people who live their lives for the lord will recieve "crowns" (open to interpretation). People who dont repent go to hell. Its justice in Gods eyes and we will understand when we die. Im not going to question God because i know that im not smarter than an the omnipotent. However many other people seem to claim to be.



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